4
R E H A M E
E. O. E.
DATE 24TH FEBRUARY, 1994.
TRANSCRIPT OF BROADCAST ITEM:
3AW MARGARET FLETCHER
FEBRUARY, 1994. 12.30PM24TH
INTERVIEW WITH PAUL KEATING, PRIME
MINISTER, WHO COMMENTS ON HIS MINISTER,
ROS KELLY'S, ALLEGED SPORTS RORTS AND
QUESTION TIME RESTRUCTURING
MARGARIT FLETCHER PRESENTER:
But right now, as you probably just heard before, at fairly
late notice so we couldn't give you too much warning, on
the line is the Prime Minister of Australia, Paul Keating.
Prime Minister, welcome to you.
PAUL KEATING PRIME MINISTER:
Hello Margaret. Nice to be here.
FLETCHER:
Well, it's nice to welcome you back to 3AW, ' cause you've
been a bit quiet on the media in Melbourne. You
haven't been on 3AW, I think, since the election?
KEATING: Well, it's not exactly a Government cheer squad station,
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KEATING CONT/ D:
early morning.
patronise it but
with you, Margare And so therefore, I don't necessarily
I'm hoping for a reasonable discussion
: t.
FLTCHER; Are you saying my colleague in the morning is biased?
KEATING;
Well, I'd say that Lu say the least. Of course I do.
FLETCHER: Isn't that more of a challenge?
that's a really good time to come Don't you reckon that
on a station?
KEATING: It doesn't matter whether it's a challenge or
time. I mean, I think that's what it's all about. a waste of
FLETCHER: Is that that you can't take criticism though?
KEATING: No, no
FLETCHER: That could bc said.
KEATING: no, its just that there is a requirement on newscasters
that they be impartial and open minded, so that when
talking to a minister or head of government, at least you
can elucidate issues. And I don't particularly want to
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KIEATING CONT/ D;
waste my time arguing with people who've made their
years ago.
F LETCHER:
Well, I suppose in fairness, that there are issues that have
got to be taken up in a critical sense. I mean, if we could
start on one, and that's the so-called sports rorts, Ros
Kelly affair. And for the life of me, I'm intrigued as to
why she's still therc.
KEATING: Well, do you know much about the issue? I mean, what's
happened herc is that there's a programme to provide
grants to small sporting clubs. This is your amateur
sporting clubs who can't put enough money together for a
netball court or a basketball court, or refurbishing a green
on a bowling club, or this sort of thing.
Now, what the Opposition are saying, they're saying we
we're not alleging fraud here, we're not alleging any
corruption here. They've made that clear. They don't
like the choices of Mrs Kelly, in respect of these
particular grants. Now, what she's made clear is, that in
Labor electorates, you're more likely to find an absence
of these kind of facilities, and she's argued that case. But
nobody's said, no one has argued, that this money hasn't
been spent properly, because one of the criteria in this,
Margaret, is that the money is first expended by the
proponents and then reimbursed by the Commonwealth.
So it's got to be spent first, before we actually pay it.
Now so the charge against Mrs Kelly is that the Liberal Rehame Australia
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E H A M
KEATING CONT/ D:
Party doesn't like her choices. And they said, well, then
on what basis did you choose it, and she said I've chosen
it myself, as a minister.
FLETCHER: On the white board.
KEATING: Well, it doesn't matter how you do it. I mean, you
see, because none of them as only now, John Howard
and Andrew Peacock have held a ministerial job; the
only ones who have held a ministerial job. There is
there's no one held down a big job. They don't know
what a minister's life is like. And a minister makes, you
know, up to, you know, thirty, forty, some of the times,
you know, decisions like that a day.
FLETCHER: Yeah, but that's what you're paid for. In all fairness,
that's the job.
KEATIN ' G:
Exactly. So that's what's she done.
FLITCHER: But it's well, I mean, even the parliamentary the
draft parliamentary inquiry results say that all their
questioning according to The Financial Review's ( sic)
ministerial compctence and damning her role is totally
inadequate. I mean, I'm not suggesting fraud either, but
you would know the perception is also something in
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R E H A M E
FLETCHER CONT/ D:
least. I mean, we even broadcast from a white board on
3AW, at one stage. We just sort of it's so outrageous.
Well, the point is if you've got to make a decision as a
minister see, this idea that a minister has
recommendations from a department which says box A,
tick if you agree; box B, tick if you don't agree; and box
B, maybe, and the minister sits up there like some kind of
dummy that just ticks one box or another, and if they
don't have a piece of paper recommending that therefore
they're not administering properly, no anyone who
thinks that, knows nothing about the Government of the
Commonwealth. FL ETCHER:
But it's thirty million dollars of my money.
KEATING: Mmm F! F. TCHER:
I mean, it's not exactly mine.
million. I'd love to have thirty
KEATING: where has it gone? It's gone to sports facilities for the
people I'm sure, you know, your're broadcasting to. That
is, amiateur sporting clubs
ELTC. F. R:
Yes. Look, I don't go against the philosophy, and
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EL1ETCH-ER CONT{ DX
everybody's I mean pork barrelling has been part of
politics forever. It's just the way that she's gone about it,
and apparently making decisions on the run to up
programmes. 1 also know of programmes that were rated
in those categories that didn't get the money when she
should ( sic), but again I would get back to the fact that
this is not going to away. I mean, the Opposition won't
let it go. Isn't it better to cut your losses.
K EAkTING:
Oh well, it's case of so, in other words, if the
Opposition keep asking questions, we have a minister
resign. Now, what if they ask another minister a series of
questions about some matter, and if gets past two weeks
of questions, we say, well that minister better resign too.
I mean, I don't remember I mean, John Howard was
up there yesterday with all the fury in the world, saying
Mrs Kelly should resign. I don't remember him resigning
when the McCabe Lanfranchi report came down in
Victoria, about the criminal evasion of the tax system. He
just sat there as it he were glued to the seat with araldyte.
So I mean, frankly, you've got to be around here a long
time to see a big issue and that was the biggest the
biggest scandal in public administration in the post-war
years was the evasion of the bottom-of-the-harbour
schemes in the 1980s. And you've got Mr Howard up
here saying to Ros Kelly, who's handing money to a band
hail, that she should resign and he said this morning,
and never come back for life. In other words, resign
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FLETCHER: Yes. Well, I mean, some of the language is a smidge ( sic)
colourful. KEAT1NG: characters. I mean, you know. So, what you've got to
do is separate out here a lot of the hyperbole from the
value of the programmes. And wha...
FLETCHER: The public perception still is, Prime Minister, that she is
incompetent, that she has not done this in what we would
see as a businesslike way. It's thirty million dollars. And
I would have thought that it's damaging you and your
party. I mean, I would have thought that there would be
a lot of people in within the Government who would
be very uneasy about Ros Kelly. It won't go away.
KEATING: Well, it won't go away while the Opposition keep asking
questions. FLETCHER:,-But they will keep asking them.
KEATING: We've ourselves established a House of Representatives
inquiry into this, and that will report next week. And
that is the appropriate process.
Now, in your remarks a few
said that the draft report.
breach of privilege matter moments ago, Margaret, you
Well, there's already been a
raised about this report. A Reharnme Australia
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KEATIN CONTID:
minister a report is not presented. You can't take any
indication that what is notionally a draft recommendation
from this report of findings, are in fact the report's
findings at all. We'll know that next week. And we've
had established a House of Representatives Committee
look at that, and I'll take notice of, obviously, of those
or that report.
FLETCHER: But you see what I'm saying. It's obvious that the as
you say, the Opposition's going to go on. Therefore, the
issue won't go away. In a public sense, we're looking at
this brawling going on, and I would have thought, in a
political sense, it would be just as easy to chop.
KEATING: Well okay, but let's you chop people when they have
actually done something which is either there's always
questions about magnitude; forn and substance,
magnitude. Now, if there was fraud here, if there was
some obvious problem of that dimension, that becomes a
you know, a much more obvious matter. But this is
not the case here. See, nobody, even the opponents
Mrs Kelly's opponents nobody alleging fraud here.
PLETCHER: No. Well, I'm not either. But I tell you what, if I was
incompetent, I'd be out of a job.
KEATING: They don't like the choices. And therefore, I think the
best thing to do is to wait until the cutmittee reports and Rehame Austratli
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KFATING CONT/ D:
see what it has to say.
FLETCHER: Okay. Well, we'll move onto another subject perhaps,
and that is question time this afternoon, and the changes
in the rules there. Again, I would talk as a voter; and it
really annoys me that you're rostering people and that
question time has moved, and even the ABC's putting on
the kid's programmes in front of question time.
KEATILG: the ABC. That's nothing to do with me.
FLETCHER: No, I know it's up to the ABC. But it's because of the
time changes, etcetera. I mean, we don't I wonder
about the accountability now. What chance have we, as a
public, have to there a lot of people who listen to
question time, or who watch question time. They won't
have that opportunity, and nor will you be there very
often. KEATING: I'll be there two days a week. I'll be there this afternoon,
as I was on Monday afternoon.
FLETCHIER: But that's a it's such I mean question time is the one
time when the Opposition gets a chance to question the
government.
R E H A M E
KEATING: And they now get a better chance, in a sense, because
they'll have a smaller group of ministers each day
FLETCHER: You're not seriously telling me this.
KEATING: Yes, if you actually
FLETCHER: ( Laughs).
KEATING: See well, you're you may be a question time
listener, but you're not a question time watcher, here.
Now, let me tell you what's happened here over the years.
When I first came here, twenty-five years ago, an ordinary
backbench member could ask a minister a matter about
his or her electorate, and matters of substance. Now, all
the questions are picked by the Opposition Whip, with
the Lleader of the Opposition, for maximum political
effect. An ordinary backbench member gets no question
and no chance to ask a question. And ninety per cent of
the answers arc given by three or four ministers.
So in other words, largely, the Government goes
unscrutinised and, largely, backbench members can'l. raise
electorate or other policy issues in their own right.
In other words, what's happened with question time, it's
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KEATING CQNT/ D:
on the front bench to first two or three on the front
bench, on either side, contest. And therefore, I believe,
it's not serving accountability well, it's not serving
information well, and it's not serving the public debate
well. FLTCHER: Well surely there are some rules and regulations that
could be changed to improve question time, rather than
take the main players out of it.
KEATING: Well, I don't I mean see, to be accountable to for
the Government to be accountable twice a week on each
sitting week, is a lot of accountability, particularly when
on every other day, ministers are present. So for four
days a week and remember in this. arrangement, we're
giving the Opposition an extra sitting day each week so,
instead of three days and four days, it's four days and
four days and a second chamber for further debate,
where we can elucidate things. That is, where people
may wish to speak in committee stages on bills, can now
go to a second chamber, where that time would be
truncated in the House of Representatives.
The reform, overall I mean, if you were able to see the
first half an hour of question time yesterday, I think you
would have seen question time working well. For
instance, on Monday
FLETCHER:
What, becau...
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KEATING: Can I tell you this: I used to get one question a week
from Dr Hewson, on average. One a week. I got seven
from the from the Opposition on Monday
FLETCHER: Mmm. KEATING: and three from him.
FLETCHER: And none ycsterday.
Look, you know, I think that's stupidity on the
Opposition's part, to be perfectly honest. They should,
too, take that opportunity. But if you're not there, they
can't anyway. I mean, with the sports rorts affair and Ros
Kelly, she'll be there today and you will be
KEATING; Mmm. FLETCHER. but not yestcrday. I mean, I would have thought that
there was con...
KEATING: But she was she was not there yesterday, but she was
there the day before.
FLETCHER: Yeah, but why I mean, we pay you to be there all the
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ELETC R CONTJ:
time. I mean, wc're asking an hour a day when
Parliament's sitting.
You pay me to manage the Government of
Commonwealth. the the
FLETCHER: And to be answerable to us.
KEATING: Well, but understand what the Government is. The
Government is the business of the country.
Accountability in Parliament important is another
thing. It's a matter of how one exercises the
opportunities of that accountability. The track record is I
used to get one question a week from the leader of the
Opposition over the last year. One a week. So now, I
got more in tact, I got more questions on the first day,
on Monday. And yesterday, for instance, Mr Beazley,
who's Minister for Finance, was getting questioned about
genuine Finance Department issues, which he would
never have got in the old format.
So the the new format's working quite well. In fact,
the Opposition's claiming yesterday, it's because Mrs Kelly
was in there on Tuesday in the new format, that they
were able to ask the question that they did.
FLETCHER: I just think it's really not a lot to ask. I don't really
understand what the problem you have is with an hour a 93 Wellington Street
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FLETCHER CONT/ D:
day, when the House is sitting.
KEATING: Well, the problem is it's become a very stalc format,
which is basically
FLETCHER* Well, change the format.
KEATING; Well, we did. That's exactly what we did.
FLETCHER: No. But I mean, you can make rules to make question
time more productive.
KEATING: No, not if in fact it's all head-to-head stuff between the
two leaders and the first two or three members of the
frontbench. You've got to have a break in the way the
format runs.
1 mean, after all, take the mother of parliaments in
Britain; the Prime Minister goes to question time twice a
week and ministers are asked questions at other times.
It's exactly what we're doing hcre.
FLETCHER: I just well, we'll agree to disagree.
of the traditions that I actually
precious in Parliamecnt. I just think
found really it's one
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KEATIXGIt's become a stale tradition, and not an interesting one.
And one where, what you're getting is basically a
twenty-second clip on the fourth item of the commercial
news services, which doesn't take most of us anywhere.
FLETCHER; Well as I said, we'll agree to disagree, ' cause I know
you're just out of time. I did say that at quarter to one,
we would free up your time. But I just wanted to ask, on
the Russian spies, could you tell me why we don't know
what happened there? Why it's only now that we've
found out?
KEATTNG;
This is with the US, you mean?
FLETCHER: With the five Russians.
expelled from Australia. No, it was the Russians being
KEATING: Well, I'm not sure 1 can be as informative about this as
you might like me to be. I think we might take that one
on notice. Well, 1 mean, 1 can talk to you about that
again. FLETCHER:
Okay. Well, I thank you
you won't leave it as long
on 3AW. for your time, and I hope that
next time that you'll come back
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iI A
KEATING: No. Well, I'm look, I'm quite happy. Let me I've
got no superstitions about 3AW. But it's got to be in the
news and information business. It can't be in the political
pamphleteering business.
FLETCI TER:
But, you see, I had lots to talk to you about today, but
we're out of time now.
KEATING: You and I are not on the breakfast programme, or the
mid-morning programme.
FLETCHER: All right. Well, will you come back on my programme?
KEATING:
Well, I think I will.
LETCHER:
Good. Well, that'd be lovely, Prime Minister. And I've
got a number of things to talk to you about.
KEATING: Righto Margaret.
FLETCHER:
Thank you. Thank you for your time.
That's the Prime Minister, Paul Keating. And the...
having a bit of a slammo ( sic) there at my colleagues
here. I wouldn't ever accuse them of bias, competencc
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FLETCHER CONTL/
perhaps, which is really more than I can say, in a personal
sense, than about Ros Kelly.
But nevertheless, the Prime Minister has said he'll come
back on the programme. Next time, we might ask more
things, like the jobs situation and the levy, etecctera. I
didn't get a chance to ask him about the Opposition, but
my undertaking was that we would have the Prime
Minister for quarter of an hour, and therefore that's what
we'vc done.
But nevertheless, hopefully the Prime Minister will be
back on the programme very soon.
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