TEL: PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH HOWARD SATTLER, RADIO 6PR 27
JANUARY 1993
2 AND OE PROOF ONLY
SATTLERI Are you going to be an asset or a liability to
Carmen Lawrenceat this election?
PMI I am leading John Hewson in the preferred Prime
Minister stakes and every national oinion-pol so I don't
have any problems about entering state election campaigns but
they are state election campaigns.-Of their essence they are
different to commonwealth issues and therefore one can lend
support as I am to Carmen and her government but I am not
obviously part of the campaign in a sense that I am part of
the governent here.
SATTLERI yourself? Were you invited to take part or did you invite
PMi I was over here in December Z think or November
and of course a week or so ago and I have seen her a number of
times recently and she said come over, we would he pleased to
see you here.
BATTLER! PM ® She said we would be pleased to see you?
Absolutely.
BATTLERi DO you think the electorate will be, that's the
most important part of it?
PMI am the Prime Minister and
see you. That may be why the electorate is not happy to
PMI The fact is, well let's go on the polls. The
polls say that the Federal Government is ahead and that I am
at this stage preferred Prime Minister over John HewSon so I
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2. P) s ( cont'd) don't have any reticence about coming here but
again I am not trying to Claim it as territory that is ours.
It's obviously a state issue and how often one enters, I mean
how often does a Prime Minister enter a state elections that
is the question you are saying. I mean I don't know,
BATTLERt While you are here you have become involved in
a Public row over john . UoWrunis tax af fairs. Why for god's
sake would you do that?
1PlC Because I was attacked yesterday by Mr Downer.
BATTLER i Mr Downer is a pretty junior member of the
Howson team, why would you worry about him?
PM: And by Dr Howson today.
BATTLERS He attacked you after your attack.
PM. No, no thin matter was raised not by me or the
government, it came up in a book written by
BATTLER: An unauthorised biography?
PM: Well Dr Heweon I think was interviewed by the
woman who wrote the book, Christine Wallace and his tax
af fairs came into the public arena ' anid I just ' simply made the
point that it's Dr Howson who was saying that the first
national issue of note in Australian public life should be tax
policy. He wants to tax everyone's expenditure and so I was
pointing simply to his philosophy about taxation. If he takes
the view that, particularly low and middle income people whose
income and expenditure are one and the same, that Is people
who save nothing, spend every cent they earn, whether you tax
their income or their expenditure is the same. So he i s
saying let's tax their expenditure with a GST but if you are a
high income tax payer then he thinks app a-rently that you can
minimise your tax,
SATTLERS Can't you legally?
PM: It's a matter of what one's moral stand in.
Thare is no minimisation with the GST, you pay it or you don't
got the goods.
GATTLERi But isn't it true your own piggery business
earned 84 million and didn't pay any tax?
PM: Totally without foundation-
8ATTIER: True or false?
PM: False, totally without foundation.
GATTLERtBATTLmEucRh. HdOiWd it Pay out of the s4 million?
TEL:' 27?. Jan .93 19 : 40 No Ut2 M, -uo i z
PM. I See Howard you are asking me a qusion about
Dr Howson&' s tax. For eight months I have been attacked in the
Senate at Dr Howson's behest by Senator Baums
GATLEMa Who you are now suing?
PK, No I don't remember you ever saying to Dr
Howson on any radio program, why are you getting to the Prime
Hiniuter, Dr Howsonl about his personal affairs? Why have you
done this for eight months? No one said that to hime so oneO
Mention from the Government and then it's all a matter of high
notoriety. SATTLERs But the point is you have been the Treasurer or
Prime Minister for all of the time Labor's been in power. Now
if Dr Howson is doing things illegal that's another matter but
this has all come about
PX. Look, look i am Just simply making a simple
point. Wte a matter of philosophy, he is saying that if you
are an ordinary wage and salary earner he is going to tax
everything you consume and your services bar certain food
items# certain food items, but everything else, your shoes,
clothing, household materials, your dry cleaning, it doesn't
matter what it is and your gas, your water, your electricity
and you can't avoid it because you pay the tax, that's it.
You can't minimise it but if you are on the income tax side
it'* a matter of where his philosophy is whether he believes
one should be able to minimise tax.
SATTLERs You believe that don't you if you can do it
l egalIly?
PM, One shouldn't need to pay more than their fair
share of tax but it's a matter of whether in this case what
appears to be the case, and he hasn't refuted the claims made
in the book, is that he's tried to make a private expense into
a business deduction, that's the point.
BATTLERt He is trying to make the beet of Paul Keating's
policies. PM: No, no, no leave me out of it.
BAT'ILERt You have been the Treasurer or Prime Minister
PM-. I am not the Tax Comissioner.
BATTLER: You arc the goverrnent you set the rules.
IPM. Ibut I don't peer over Dr Howson's shoulder when
he is filling in hie tax return, that's for him to do.
BATTLERt Just put those headphones on for a moment
because I have got a cut of a speech you made in 1988 and I
would like you to respond to this.
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4. PMI anyone in this country who has wealth,
ilncom are mostly inCorporated. I guarantee you half the
prose gallery is incorporated and it is entirely sensible. I
am not attacking you for it, it'@ the thing you do when the
tax system urges you to do it."
SATTLER: That's what you said In 1988 to the Press Club,
PX1 I'll say it again, no problem at all.
BATTLER: But you seem to be encouraging people
P) 1 But look Howard your listeners don't have their
mortgage payments deductible against their income, do they?
SATTLERs Well some do, ne don't.
PX1 That's the point, that's the point. That is,
what is a private expense and what is a business deduction?
An inoorporatLon is beside the point. You incorporate if you
are running-a--business, if someone is a business person
selling radio services you may well be incorporated and that
would be fine. if somebody is providing accountancy services
they could be incorporated. They are providing a service and
the incorporation covers them against limitation of liability
etC. The whole question goes to one's philosophy about
taxation. I am not the one proposing to put a GST on
everybody's back, John Hewuon is. He is the one that has got
to answer the questions.
SATTLERt You are saying it I am right that this revolves
around something which you should not have been able to claim
company expenses for. Is that right?
PM: I think it's a matter of how one exploits the
tax system and what one's philosophy is about it. Por most
people that is a matter not of such consequence but for Dr
Hewson he is proposing to levy a GST which is equal to half
the income tax of Australia. The GST's proceeds are half the
current Commonwealth income tax, that's how big it is. He is
campaigning on a totally radical change to the tax system so
one has to be quite clear about one's philosophy in these
respects. SATTLERt Your track record in the tax area, your
personal record isn't perfect is it?
PM: In terms of tax changes?
SATTLERs No, no 7our personal tax situation, You failed
to lodge returns at least once.
PX1 I failed to lodge a return but it was a return
where I was in credit, I wasn't in deficit. I didn't owe
money I was owed money, I was owed money but it was late.
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SATTLER But I just Wonder whether or noi from an
electoral point of view you are getting yourself into an area
which might rebound on you.
PM: Howard, look let me say this. When was the
last time you had John Heweon here?
SATTLERo I had him last week as I understand it.
PMI ' Why didn't you ask him why did he attack me for
eight months in the Senate? Did you7
SATTLERI No I didn't ask him that.
PM. Why didn't you?
SATTLER I was doing an interview about his wife and
what role his wife was going to play if he became Prime
Minister. PM: But why didn't you ask him, I mean this has
been a matter of public notoriety?
BATTLERs Because it wasn't in the context of the
interview. PHI Okay that's a somewhat disingenuous answer you
agree? SATTLERs No I don't.
PM No well of course
SATTLER: well next time round when he is sitting here on
his own like you, I mean next time if you bring Annita with
you I suggest I would be talking to her about the role she is
going to play
PM: That's fine, I am Just saying to you, this
matter has been reported in The West Australian over the
months. He has had Senator Baume in there without any
justification, without -an wvibtahsoiust, any substance,
attacking me under parliamentary privilege
SATTLER: And you are suing Senator Eaume?
PMI Finally of course he started to say things
without the parliamentary privilege and I took the first
opportunity to respond to him, Nobody asked me on radio about
that, no one asked John Hewoon on * adio about it. The only
journalist as far as I know in this country who raised it was
Alan Ramsey in the Sydney Morning Herald.
BATTLER: Will Parliament be recalled on February 23 as
scheduled?
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G PNI Yes.
SATTLERS And will you be happy to take questions about
your personal tax situation and his?
PM1 Mine is as clean am a whistle, there is no
problem about me I have got a small interest in a piggery,
simple as that. There must be thousands of farmers in Western
Australia, my situation no more or less complex than that.
SATTLZRi How much money have you got in the piggery?
PM1 That's all a matter of public record.
SATTLERi Don't you know?
PM1 Yen, I have got about $ 400,000 in it.
SATTLERt That's a small investment?
PM: ror piggeries these days, for a farm, farms are
quite capital intensive things but I don't remember anyone
asking Doug Anthony, who was deputy prime minister about his
piggery. I don't remember anybody asking Malcolm Fraser about
his farms but you see there is one rule for the coalition and
one rule for Labor.
SATTLER. Could it be that you have set new rules, new
standards about getting personal of people and
PM8 NO, no just understand this I have never
attacked people about their personal affairs, never.
SATTLER: include what you are saying about John Hewson
in that category?
PM: Zn Parliament, in Parliament, I will defend the
governmentle policy, I will put a view aggressively but what I
on't do is use the parliamentary privilege to hop into
people's personal affairs.
SATTLER: But if yOU recall Parliament as planned on the
23 February will you be prepared to take questions about the
piggery, bacause I am sure you are going ask questions about
John Hewson?
PM: I have been sitting there for eight months in
the House of Representatives, every day prepared to take
questions about anything and John Howson wouldn't ask me. You
know why, because there was nothing in it? He was happy to
have someone do it in a cowardly way up in the Senate under
privilege and at least one journalist said, if these questions
are so important Dr Hewson why don't you ask them in the House
of Representatives? One journalist put a note into his office
saying, here was the reply, no reply came because he knew it
was just basically a scam and a shambles.
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7. GATTLISRi Were you accusing him of being gutless?
PM. I am accusing him of trying to disparage me
undrr vilgein another chamber. No is out saying Keating
plays it tough, he hits us in the jaw, he does this, he does
that bUt w~ hat I don't do is use parliamentary privilege to
make defamatory claims about members of parliament, I have
never done that.
BATTLU t You said this has been talked about f or some
time and we have spent a bit of time on it today but I just
wonder whether all this personal squabbling between you and
John Howson about your own personal affairs ion't irrelevant
to the main game?
PHI Let's make this clear. I gave a major speech
to 10500 people in the convention centre in Sydney the day
before Australia Day associated with the Sydney 2000 bid. on
Australia Day yesterday I gave a major speech to the country
about all the great public issues, Last week in Nelbourne I
gave a ma jor speech about education and the fact that they are
not being picked up in the media is not my fault or the
Government's fault. It's the priorities which people in the
media put on news.
SATTLERi Yes# but I have got a feeling the electorate,
the people in the real world would be saying can we just get
on with the real job here.
PM: Why don't the newspapers report the real
speeches, why isn't the messages of Australia Day in a thirty
minute speech or the day before reported broadly?
SATTLER; Are you aure?
PMI Because the media is always looking around for
something which is more inflammatory.
SATTLERo Do you agree Prime Minister that discussion and
quite expansive discussion today all over the place about Paul
Keating's piggery and John Hewson'S Miftimiuing tax should be
dispensed with?
PH. Put it this way, it was not the Government who
raised this matter. Let me remind you this was raised in a
book by somebody totally dissociated with the Government. In
fact a former Liberal Party staffer, a former Liberal Party
staffer who wrote a book, not me, not at our urging, it Just
appeared two days ago,
BATTLERt But why are you even bothering about it?
PHI Because Dr Hewqon wants to put a consumption
tax on everybody's back.
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SATTL222 So if someone writes something about John
Hewson minimising tax you will use that to beat him over the
head over his CST?
PX4 Just to make the point that he in not entitled
I don't think to be asking people to pay through the nose with
the GST while reserving the rLght to minimise tax.
SATTLIRI Other issues which again are not main issues
but ones which certainly got a lot of feedback over here were
the issue of the Speaker, Leo XcLeay, I think he is a friend
of yours and I think he is from the same faction as you.
PM3 Can I just interrupt you there. Here you are
Howard saying a minute ago that we would be on the main issues
and what do you do one minute later, you are onto some side
event that just doesn't matter.
SATTLZR i What I am saying is the electorate, the
talkback callers in droves were ringing up and saying why is
this man getting $ 65,000 for falling off a bike he shouldn't
have been riding? They say it's symptomatic of the Government
that doesn't care.
PM$ It's nothing to do with the Government.
SATTLERI Didn't the Government finally approve the
PM1 It's not the Government It was done through the
established Commonwealth processes, all set up within the
SATTLERs But you are for a fair and Australia
PMe Listen, look, two days ago, for two days I gave
major speeches to the country about Australia's place in Asia,
about the need for Australians to mount the challenges that
are confronting us, about the need to get investment and
employment back. About putting research and development and
education back high in the constellation of our national
affairs which again I was doing today with Carmen Lawrence.
They are the subjects that I have elected to speak about but
it's very hard to get any coverage for them and I had some
people say to me on Australia Day, those who attended the
convention centre, some of the 1,500 who attended the
convention centre in Sydney the day before how scandalous was
the scant reporting of what I laid, you see.
SATTLER& I have heard John Hewson complaining that he in
not getting a fair go from the media.
PM1 I don't mean a fair go, no, it's about whether
the media focusses on trivia or on substantive national issues
and you just a minute ago said, I am not quite sure whether
you understand what you said to me. What you have said to me
was why are you on this and not on the major issues?
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Jan .93 19 : 40 No .052 P .09/ 12
SAMTE1 Why are you?
VMS Yaen, and then a minute later you ask about Lo
McLeay's compensation claim.
BATTLERS But I prof aced that by saying we have had heaps
Of calls on it, the public think it's a big issue.
PXI The job of people like you and me is to say the
real issue in to make sure that the basis f or growth and
employment and wealth and prosperity are progressed in this
country. They are the real issues.
SATTLERi They are the thing that people believe that you
should be doing.
PHI That's what we, are doing, that's what I devoted
Australia Day to and the day bef ore to and last week a major
speech on education.
BATTLER: But an appeal to national prLde on Australia
Day which by the way and this is another issue I jiLght put,
you might think it'a an issue that's not of great importance
but an Ausatralia where half of the country celebrates the
national day one day and halt on another day, I mean surely
that's symptomatic of the malaise of Australia.
PNI I think that's coming together next year.
GATTLERi In it?
PM, I think so.
BATTLER., But why didn't you step in?
FMm I think it will all be on the one day.
BATTLER: What do you think of the Government here
decreeing it will be next Monday, forget your Labor
affiliations? PM I think Australia Day should be acknowledged
across the country on the one day, on the 26 January. That's
what should happen, that's the sensible thing to happen.
BATTLERs Is that the right day too because a lot of
Aboriginal people think it's not, they think that's the day
when they should be mourning. I wonder when we become A
republic, and I underline that when, and if you are around at
the time how about makinj that our national day whenever that
happens? PK: The 26 January is the day we celebrate as the
day of our settlement, our first day of our settlement,
European settlement in Australia and no doubt if you were part
of a nation dispossessed you would have a jaundi~ ced view of
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PH. ( cont'd) the 26 January too and that's why it is
imnortant that Australia move ahead as a country where therse
diferences are basically reconciled. ' That we put behind us
our history.
SATTLER' Could that involve changing our national day to
another day which everybody supports and may be that would be
the day we became a republic, think about it?
PHI I will take it on board.
SATTLERe What do you think about it?
PH. I thinkc the 26 January is a legitimate day of
celebration in Australia and I thinkc the more important issue
is though these questions of reconciliation with the
Aboriginal community, that is it should be that all
Australians, the first Australians and those of us who have
followed a1l the regard the place as their home and that we
can all see it as our home.
BATTLER: Under federal Labor, you as Treasurer and now
Prime Minister, we have suffered and I don't think you would
disagree with that, post depreassion record unemployment,
correct? PHI Yeu but let me remind you when I became
Treasurer there was six million people in the workforcs,
there's eight million today, that's a quarter bigger. Nowv
Zealand which you hear about across the water from Dr Heweon
and his pals ham fewer people in work today than they had in
1983. We have got 264 more people in work today than we had
in 1983. Now unem~ ployment is high, too high and we have got
to got it down but we have kept, the key numbers are these.
In the 80s we created 1.75 million jobs, in the last three
years we have lost 300,000 ot them so we have gone 1.75
million is now just under 1.5 million.
SATTLERs we can't keep up at the moment can we?
PHI What's happening is we are going through slower
growth and also a productivity binge. I mean companies are
getting more output from fewer people. The economy is now so
efficient and companies by and large are so stripped down that
they are getting the same or more output from a smaller
workcforce. N~ ow all that means is we have to actually have
more growth and more activity so that even more output comes
from the economy so we will start to rehire people and we are
reaching the stage where companies won't be able to wring Any
more, squeeze any more jui. ce from th. e lemon,, that is they
won't be able to get more output from the same workcfore and
they will start to have to rehire. Now the economy has been
growing SATTLERt You are pai~ nting a picture of them almost
beating them to work harder.
TEL
TEL
11 P no what's happened is we have had a big
risle in productivity. Now what that means inu we are getting
more output from fewer people so that's good but it's not good
tor employment so to make it good for employment we have got
to get more growth again. we Are growing at the moment faster
than any other OECDl economy and its. our economy picks up
particularly if the US picks up and we get a bit of help then
we can get back to rates of growth which will see employment
pick up. We did phenomenally well with employment in the
and it's a great pity that we dropped off the pace but the
good thing about it Is we kept most of those jobs and what we
have now got to do is start growing again, growing in
employment again.
BATTLER S John Heweon suggesuted that interostL rate, -may
go up before the federal election. Can you give any
guarantees that they won't?
PMe John Howson has all these predictions which are
always at the national expense. He is saying the exchange
rate we can't affCord to fund Reserve Bank interventions on the
exchange rate. He makes comments about interest rates, all
these things are not designed to produce confidence in
financial marketis and frankly I don't think there is much
benefit in political leaders making thos sorta of claims.
BATTLERi I know you can't tell uas that you think
interest rates are going to to down but can you give any
guarantee that it won't go up before the federal election?
PM8 I am not giving guarantee. on radio stations
about interest rates, It's just a wrong place, we run
monetary policy in this country between the Government and the
Reserve bank under an Act of Parliament the R9serve Bank Act
which requires a government and the bank to agree and I don't
make pronouncements about rates without speaking to the
Governor. SATTLZR# Will they stay the same?
PM: It's not for me to say. We have got inflation
low that's the main thing. The main reason that interest
rates are down to these levels, bill rates of 6.75t is because
we have got low inflation and low inflation
SATTLERt We have got that because people can't afford to
buy what they used to be able to.
PM, We have got low inf lation and we ar. 4 going to
k: n ai t t took us2 years to break the back of inf lation
we ve otit's bakbroken and now if we keep it's back
broken we can keep lower interest rates.
SATTLERi Go out as far as you can, when are you going to
let us know about the federal poll because that can create
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8ATTLURs ( Cont'd) uncertainty. What's the last time you will
be able to tell us there in going to be a federal poll?
PX: I think the Parliament can meet three years
after it first met in the ensuing Parliament, that puts I
think an election needs to be held around the first week or so
of May.
BATTLERs You don't want it that late do you?
PM. rt's a matter of what the Government thinks is
fair and reasonable.
SATTLER: No, it's a matter of what you think.
PM: More particularly, all of us in fact.
SATTERi You can't just sort of wake up one morning and
may I'll have an election today.
PMI No, I pick up cues from the electorate and the
cabinet and in this system the Prime Minister has discretion
over the election and
SATTLERs Could you win if you called it now?
PM: I think we have a very good chance of winning,
yes. SATTLERs At least even money?
PM: At least, at least even money. I mean the
polls say we are in front.
SATTLER: May be it's time to go.
PM: We are a reasonable chance. I mean Dr Xewson
was telling everybody last year we were going to have an
election in March, then we were going to have an election in
June, then we were going to have an election at the Budget,
then we were having an election in November, an election
before Christmas, so the best thing you can do is the three
years SATTLERs Why didn't he give you a call?
PMI The three years come around In March. The
Government was elected in March ' 90 so the three years in
March but the Parliament runs until May, so the short answer
is between now and May.
ENDS