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NATIONAL 9 NETWVORK CANBiERRA BUREAU
I MRGLSA LLERY PARLIAMEN'T IIOUSE CANIIIRRA
PIIONE:( 062) 733300 FAX:( 062) 733097
Date: 19 August 1990 Time: 0900
Source: National Nine Network Programme: Sunday
Jim Waley: At best this week's instant opinion polls showed a
country evenly divided over Australia's ihvolvement in the
Persian Gulf blockade. And though, when they finally get to the
Gulf our frigates will not fire on. or board vessels trying to run
the blockade, doubts were raised over the suitability of the
vessels for their mission, whose finger would ultimately be 6n
the trigger and over the wisdom of the Prime Minister's
dispatching the warships without discussion in Cabinet or
Parliament. Mr Hawke is in our studio this morning. Here to
talk with him are Alan Ramsay of the ' Sydney Morning Herald and
Sunday's political editor, Laurie Oakes.
LAURIE OAKES: Prime Minister, welcome. As you have heard there
they have started shootirg in the Gulf now. An American ship has
fired across the bows of an Iraqi vessel. Is there any way of
avoiding war now or is it an unstoppable slide?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well I hope it can -be avoided, Laurie.
I have had reason to say before that you have a certain amount
of' difficulty in prediction and analysis when you are dealing
with a leader who, on the record of his actions including in
regard to his own people, often seems not to act on a rational
basis. But any logical assessment by the leadership of Iraq at
this time must point to the conclusion that the best interests-"
of the Iraqi people would be served by the withdrawal of their
forces from Kuwait. And I add to that, as I have always, if the
leadership of Iraq believes that they have legitimate causes of
grievance with its neighbour, Kuwait, then there are available
mechanisms for the peaceful pursuit of those issues.
LAURIE OAKES: The latest Iraqi statements about foreigners in
2
Iraq and Kuwait make it clear now that they are hostages. What
is your attitude to the latest statement that they will be used
as human shields protecting military installations?
LAURIE OAKES: It's a totally despicable action and,.-of course,
littered with hypocrisy. If you look at the actual statement you
can gather the hypocrisy of it because they talk about what is
being-done by others as ' being in violation of all the norms of
international law and human conduct among nations'. What they
have done, of course, is unacceptable by any standards.
LAURIE OAKES: What is your attitude to the Australians who are
in this position? Would you contemplate a deal-to get them out?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: You can't deal in this situation. I feel,
of course, as I have from the beginning enormous concern for the
welfare of these people and we have kept up, both through our own
diplomatic missions and through the availability of the Britigh
resources in Kuwait where we are not diplomatically represented,
a constant pressure upon the Iraqi authorities to try and ensure
as far as we can the Well-being of our citizens.
LAURIE OAKES: Would we support any military effort at the
moment? PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I don't think it' is appropriate for me to
speculate on what may or -may not happen in that area other than
to say this, of course, Laurie, it is a legitimate question. We
would be discussing appropriate responses with all our friends,
obviously including the United State s and the British who have
the major number of people concern ed.
ALAN RAMSAY: Prime Minister, now that the shooting-has actually
started in the Gulf, will Cabinet automatically review the role
of our ships when they get there or do we have to wait----
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: What we have said, Alan, on that is this.
We have laid * down a role at this point. There are two things--*
that are now happening in consequence of ' that. Our own defence
people, particularly Navy, are examining with others the
appropriate rules of engagement. But the second thing that is
happening is that in this next week we understand there will be
discussions among representatives of all those nations with
forces going to the area to get the best sort of coordination
that is possible, the most effective coordination. What we said
in the Cabinet when we discussed this matter last week was that
if, out of the developments in the area and these discussions
that we are having the sort that I referred to it becomes
apparent that there is a case for any lifting of the degree of
commitment we have made then that will be considered by and
decided by Cabinet.
ALAN RAMSAY: It is a fortnight before the ships get there. The
role in fact could change before they do get there, given what
you have said.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: It could. This is n6t the first time I
have said it. It could change., I hope it doesn't. In fact my
hope is that between now and th. e time that the ships arrive,
Alan, that good sense will have prevailed and there won't be a
need for any presence.
ALAN RAMSAY: Can I ask you why did you wait for a call from the
President before announcing the commitment given essentially that
you and a few of your colleagues had made the decision thel day
before? PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I thought it was appropriate to have a
discussion with the President. There wasn't any-need to announce
it before that and the discussions that had taken place had been
at diplomatic and military level. It seemed appropriate to
culminate those discussions in a discussion between the President
of the United States and myself-There wasn't any pressure to
do it before that. That seemed the appropriate course of action.
LAURIE OAKES: But you are now getting protesters saying you are
a lap dog of the Americans. Didn't you, in a sense, ask for that
by your handling of it?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: No. It doesn't matter what you do you.
would have had that sort of mindless observation. If in this job'
you conducted yourself in terms of what sort of mindless
observation will you get, what do I do to avoid that well then
you can't conduct affairs that way. I know that what I did was
right. I know that I had the sense of my Cabinet's feeling. I
knew that the Cabinet would be supportive and that, in the event,
was what happened. There was no dissent within Cabinet.
ALAN RAMSAY: The point Prime Minister surely is that you did it.
Not your Cabinet. And given that you had had at least three days
warning because of the talks going on over-diplomatic channels,
surely there was time to call a full Cabinet before you made the
decision? You should involve the full Government in this.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I know that you have got your position,
Alan, -so just calm down. I am saying that your observation that
I did it is not an accurate statement of the position. I had
discussions with a number of my colleagues. I also had the
benefit of a previous Cabinet meeting when the, Iraq situation
came before us in terms of a decision ablout following the
sanctions route.
ALAN RAMSAY: Military options were not canvassed at that Ca binet
meeting. PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Laurie, I am here to answer question..
I am not here to have an argument with a man parading his
prejudices. Let me finish my answer. I am saying that I had had
the opportunity of'* a d iscussion with all my Cabinet colleapues
about the Iraqi situation. I had a sense of their feeling. I
had had the discussion following that with a number of relevant
Ministers. I knew what the view of my Cabinet would be and my
knowledge of that was con-firmed by the fact that when we went to
the Cabinet there was no dissent from what I had done.
LAURIE OAKES: Prime Minister, how well prepared are our sailors
and our ships for what awaits theml in the Gulf? The reason I ask
that is I have a copy of a letter, that has been faxed to you by
the fiancee of one of those sailors and she says quite bluntly
that the ship is not capable of defending itself effectively.
Is that true?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: No, that is not true. Let me say these.
things which I think are relevant. Firstly, ., and most.
importantly, Australians are entitled to be proud of and
confident in the capacities of the Royal Australian Navy. They
have a history and a tradition and a current practice of
competence. In regard to the ships themselves this is the
equipment they have. They have, firstly, standard and harpoon
missiles which can destroy air and surface targets at long range;
they have a 76 millimetre gun for their own defence; they have
a rapid firing what is referred to as close in weapon which can
latch on to the missiles launched at them like the Exocet; and
they have electronic equipment to warn of the approach of
missiles and decoy systems to deal with that. The further point
to make is that these are our most modern vessels and there is
some 50 equivalent FFGs in the United States Navy. There is a
comparability always.
LAURIE OAKES: Sure. But this woman, presumably, is reflecting
the views of her fiancee who is on the Adelaide. If I could read
you a little bit of what she writes. You presumably have got
this letter in your office. But she says that these men have not
had the necessary training to cope with potential dangers they
may encounter. Add to that the fact that our ships are not
capable of defending and attacking and you have a fairly lethai
combination. She also says that it seems to be a death sentence
for those sailing for the Middle East and she wonders how you,
as a father, would feel if your son was on the ship.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I'll just ask you a very simple question.
It makes good television to read the letter from the fiancee and
I feel for her and her concerns. But as' Prime Minister I ask you
a very direct question: ' Would you be moved to judgment by the
letter of a fiancee or by the best advice that comes from your
professional people in the Navy?
LAURIE OAKES: I would be conce-rned if I thought the sailors
S thought that they were in for a death sentence.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: All I can say is that I didn't dodge the
sailors. I went and farewelled them. I moved among them as a
matter of record. And all I can say is that I found amongst the
sailors and their officers these feelings and may I say that
I was very glad to find that there wasn't a mad jingoism to get
there and get them attitude. I wouldn't have like to have seen
that. There was a degree of apprehension which is what you would
expect and, in a sense, what you would hope. But over and above
all that, there was a feeling of commitment and of pride and of
confidence. ALAN RAMSAY: Prime Minister, Iraq's announcement about the
hostages does raise the stakes. If George Bush decides to go
into Kuwait or into Iraq, do we support him?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: What I have said in answer to a previous
question holds. I am not going to speculate in advance as to
what the position of Australia will be or how we will conduct
ourselves and I don't think you really expect that I would. But,
with my colleagues, we will make the decisions which we think are
in the best interests of this country and we will certainly,
within that parameter, be conscious of what you rightly referred
to as the upping of the stakes and the putting in very
considerable danger the lives of Australian citizens.
LAURIE OAKES: Prime Minister, the. Middle East crisis has obvious
implications for Tuesday's Budget. To what extent did the
Government have to do a re-write? Did it have to revised its
forecasts? PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: That is being done. I can't give you the
details of it but in net terms, because Australia is a net energy
exporter, increases in prices in net terms should benefit
Australia. YdU are quite right it involves the re-writing of
some of the assumptions about prices and so on.
LAURIE OAKES: And inflation, I guess. You were predicting a 6
per cent inflation rate this year. Is that now not realistic?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: It is too early to predict the outcome.
You have got to make an assumption about how. long the crisis is
going to last. Secondly, what are the other OPEC and non-OPEC
countries going to do about production. There are only four
million barrels a day to make up. You could do that easily by
a million barrels a day rundown of the record levels of stocks
and by an increase of production on the part of others. So,
there are so many assumptions that you have got to make. I would-',
hope, of course, in line with all I have said that we are not
going to be looking at a long period of crisis. If that is so,
then the volatility of prices shows that you could relatively
quickly get back. What happened immediately before the crisis
was that it was just under $ US20 a barrel these are in US
dollars of course and it shot up to $ US30, went back to $ US24
and it is now about $ US27. It is too early to predict for a
whole financial year.
LAURIE OAKES: What about defence spending,'-Prime Minister? It
will look a bit silly in the present climate to have another cut
back won't it?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: The obvious point is that nothing we will
do will diminish our capacity to sustain our commitment in the
region. LAURIE OAKES: So an increase in defence spending in real terms?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: You wait and see to the Budget. What is
the important . thing to Australians is the a'nswer I have just
given. That no Budget decision ~ will be allowed to stand in the
way of ensuring we meet properly . and adequately the commi tment
that we have made.
ALAN RAMSAY: Prime Minister, the accord. ACTU leaders say thi-t
if rising oil prices do feed into inflation that they would
expect a wage increase.
PRIME MINISTER HAWK-E: The accord, Alan, as you know, -1 is
calculated to try and give at least a maintenance of real
income/ outcome'. They will obviously want to take that into
account but this is a matter for discussion at the time. I don't
avoid the thrust of what~ you are putting there.
ALAN RAMSAY: It is a problem.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: It's a problem. If the prices go up more
than we expected prior to the event then that is something that
is going to affect us not only in regard to the accord but the
whole calculus of this financial year.
LAURIE OAKES: Unions have to accept there is sacrifice demanded,
don't they, in this crisis?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Everyone has to and I think you will see-.
that the Budget, quite apart from the question of' the Gulf
crisis, is one which is directed, Laurie ' and Alan, to trying to
shape for Australia the sort of position we need to have to meet
the challenges of the present time and the period ahead of us.
Now there is a new element in that challenge that will have to
be taken into account by everyone including Government.
LAURIE OAKES: Is it the toughest Budget since you came to
office? Is that a fair description?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I don't whether it is the toughest. They
have all been pretty hard. I suppose it is the toughest in this
sense to the extent that we have got to find some more-saving and
we do, almost by definition. The ones you have taken in the
first seven years are relatively the easier ones. What's left
are comparatively the harder.
ALAN RAMSAY: You still want a great big surplus, though?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: It is not a question of wanting it just
for the sake of it.
ALAN RAMSAY: For economic reasons.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: You need a considerable surplus, yes.
ALAN RAMSAY: That would be more-, spending cuts and essentially
the first Budget after an election. Always the---
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Let me say this, Alan. I know neither o'f
you expect that I am going to give you-the details. But rpughly
you have got it right. There will be more expenditure savings
and this, together with the other things we do in . the Budget,
will be directed towards having a significant surplus because
Australia has * got to have that. Without getting into the
technical jargon, essentially what Governments that is, the
Federal and the State Governments have to do is to reduce their
demands upon the community savings because that means then that
the savings are available for expansion by the private sector.
And we don't need then, correspondingly, to call to the same
extent upon overseas resources.
LAURIE OAKES: Prime Minister, does the economic situation mean
that you won't be able to deliver fully now in the Budget on some
of your election promises.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Let's wait and see. I don't want to
prejudge. ALAN RAMSAY: You're confident that the child care package, which
was a centrepiece of the election campaign and your campaign
speech, will be met over the term of this Government?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: It's not long to wait, Alan.
LAURIE OAKES: That's almost an admission that it's not going to
be met.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: You read what you like into what I say.
You had one great scoop in getting the Budget before it was
actually delivered, Laurie, and you deserve credit for that.
You're not going to get one from me.
LAURIE OAKES: Not today. Prime Minister, Graeme Richardson, the
Social Security Minister, was reported as telling colleagues that
he expects to cop heaps as a result of the Budget. That does
mean that you are going to be belting people on welfare benefits?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: There will be some decisions that have an
effect in that area. Of course, in some important areas, there
will be compensating decisions but I can't go any further than
that.
S AURIE OAKES: Why is the Labor G6vernment targeting those sorts
of areas?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: It is not a question of targeting those
areas. To put it that way doesn't do justice to what our
approach has been. There has been targeting in the past in that
we have tried to conserve resources to ensure that those mos in
need are protected and there will not'be any capricious attack
on those most in need.
ALAN RAMSAY: Prime Minister, the Resdrve Bank recently the
Treasurer has again cut bfficial interest rates. Fiscal policy
is being tightened as you acknowledge. Does this mean that the
Government's overall economic policy is being changed along the
lines that critics have been calling for?
S PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: What it means, Alan, is that we have had,
as you know, to tighten policy over the last 12 months or so
because we couldn't sustain the level of demand with the
associated level of imports. Let's look at what has been
happening. Over the last four quarters the inflation rate is.:
trending down from about 2.3 per cent in the September quarter
down to 1.6 per cent in the last quarter.' Inflation in tending
down. In the last quarter imports went down by 11 per cent. So
we are seeing evidence of the successful impact of the tight
policies that we have had. That has been associated then with
this most recent decision to which you referred the ease off
of monetary policy. What we will continue to do, Alan, is to
monitor the impact of the decisions that we have made and
obviously, if further down the track we see further evidence to
support the conclusion then there will be a further easing of
policy. LAURIE OAKES: One thing that the Budget won't contain is any
announcement of telecommunications or the airlines for that
matter. The Government is in a terrible mess on those issues,
isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I wouldn't describe it as a terrible mess.
It is not elegant and I concede that. We are not in a terrible
elegant position. I am not trying to be the slick politician in
dodging an issue. I have said quite clearly that when you come
to a point in a great party l: ike this that has very firm
positions about monopolies of publicly-owned utilities, it is not
to be expected, Laurie and Alan, that we are just going to say
that it is easy to contemplate changethere. That is going to
arouse passions. As well as passions it is going to arouse quite
legitimate differences' of view about what is the best way of
going about change. So what we are witnessing now is precisely
that and I am rot upset about it. I concede it is not terribly
elegant but it is exactly what you woul'd expect. The important
thing is this. Where ' he essential debate remains in this
community is not within the Labor Party. We will come up in the
area of telecommunications with a policy that will be calculated
to introduce competition but in-a situation where there will
S continue to be a publicly-owned telecommunication facility. As
far as the best interests of Australia are concerned that is
essential. And the debate, the distinction, is between that
Labor Party position and what is now clearly that of the
conservatives who will flog Telecom and sacrifice the interests
of Australians by just removing a publicly-owned facility from
this area and just throw it right over to the private sector.
That is the real debate and it is the debate that the Labor Party
will deal with.
LAURIE OAKES: But they have at least made a decision but you are
paralysed to the special ALP conference, are you not?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Paralysed if you want to put it that way.
11
What I have said, quite properly, is that we will wait until the
conference has the opportunity of considering this because there
is an existing policy position which is not appropriate to the
present position. We are changing that but out of that change
you will have in Australia the start of debate. Labor standing
for competition but competition where there is a publicly-owned
telecommunications facility, internationally and domestically.
The conservatives who are going to say to the Australian people
that we don't give a damn about protecting you, we are going to
flog the whole lot off to the private sector that is a debate
that I am more than happy to be engaged in', and am more than
confident about the outcome.
ALAN RAMSAY: Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam has challenged you
to say what has happened since 1985. Have you changed your
stance of privatisation?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I'll be saying tiat as I have been within
the process of the party. I don't regard it as particularly
necessary or appropriate to be having a public discussion) or
debate with Gough about this. I will be handling it within the
party.
ALAN RAMSAY: On the subject of Gough. ' His terms as Chairman of
the National Gallery ends' in December. Will you be giving him
an extension?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I think what I will be doing in that area,
Alan, is not appropriate for relevation on this show.
ALAN RAMSAY: Gough would think so.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: That he would think it appropriate to
reveal it on here?
ALAN RAMSAY: No. Just to know. He would like an extension.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: We will see.
LAURIE OAKES: Prime Minister, in the election campaign in March
you said repeatedly you promised that you would remain Prime
Minister through this entire term and go to another election.
Does that still apply?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yes.
LAURIE OAKES: Absolutely, solemn, cross-your-heart promise?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yes. That is my commitment.
LAURIE OAKES: So if you breach that commitment, if you do go
before the next election, the Australian public would have reason
to feel that you had breached faith with them?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: They would certainly have reason to
believe that I hadn't adhered to what I said. I guess is
something disastrous happens to me they might excuse me but I am
hoping that won't happen.
LAURIE OAKES: But it has to be something disastrous. You won't
be forced out, you won't go to avoid being a loser?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I've given you my answer, Laurie.
LAURIE OAKES: We are just about out of time, 1rime Minister, but
the Senate is to be televised from Tuesday. Will the Government
allow the House of Representative' to be televised as well?
S PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Let me quickly answer that. I have had
a discussion with my Cabinet about a range of issues for reform
of the proceedings generally of the Parliament. I have just got
to finalise one matter on that in the -Cabinet room this week and
then I am going to have a discussion with the Leader of ) the
Opposition. It would be my hope that out of those discussions
we would be getting television of the Parliament.
LAURIE OAKES: Prime Minister, thank you very much.
For p~ rivate research only. Mh st every ffort is made. cctow . a. ys ure fo. the
( Transcript by Monitair Pty Limited)
Inquiries to Peter Harvey, Press Gallery, Parliament
House, Canberra.