~ o J ( 2.3
PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH GREG HUNTING, RADIO 2LM,
LISMORE 16 AUGUST 1990
E OE PROOF ONLY
HUNTING: Mr Hawke, welcome to Lismore and to 2LM.
PM: Thank you very much Greg. Thank you very much indeed.
HUNTING: As I said, the most successful Labor leader and
the second longest serving Prime Minister. Also great
election success at times when the economy's been tough,
high interest rates. It's surprised a lot of people that
you were able to be so successful. What's the secret to Bob
Hawke's success?
PM: Well I don't think any person and perhaps particularly
the person himself can give the right weighting to all the
factors that go into outcomes. I hope that some of my own
abilities are part of the answer Greg. I certainly hope and
think that my capacity to relate to the Australian people is
part of it. But even more importantly than that I think
that the Australian electorate is a different electorate now
than it was say at the beginning of the 80s. I think it's
more sophisticated. I think if you tell them, as I have on
so many occasions, that things are pretty tough, that some
hard decisions have to be taken, that if you're honest with
them and direct I think they'll respond. Therefore there's
a greater necessity for oppositions to government to come up
with not just criticisms of the government that's in, but a
credible alternative. So I think my success and the success
of the Labor Party under my leadership has been a
combination of our abilities, which I think we have plenty,
the weakness of the opposition in not giving credible
alternatives and all of that in the context of an electorate
which I think is getting more sophisticated.
HUNTING: What future goals are there for Bob Hawke? You've
achieved an awful lot in your lifetime? Another term
perhaps? PM: I certainly want to make this fourth term a very
constructive term Greg. There are things to be done which I
think are important for the future of the country and I want
to make it a successful fourth term. I'd like to lead the
Party into the next election to another victory. I think
then, at some stage during that next period, I'd probably
then say it was time to move on. But my real objective Greg
is to try and lay the foundations for a more competitive
Australia to go into the 21st Century, one where people
understand that all of us, and that means individuals, trade
unions, employers, governments, have to be prepared to
forego some of the assumptions of the past which may have
been relevant to an easier period but which are impediments
to becoming more competitive now.
HUNTING: Right. We might move on. One thing we did do
today, we invited listeners to phone in any questions they
may have for you. We have a few. But one that did come up
over and over again, and I guess it's a question that's very
much in your mind too at the moment, is the Middle East
situation. PM: Sure.
HUNTING: It's obviously causing a lot of concern. Could
you just explain the rationale behind that commitment.
PM: Yes Greg. Obviously it will take a little bit of time
to answer, it's a very important question. Let me say this,
that I've said recently. Paradoxically while this is the
most serious decision I've had to take as Prime Minister, in
the end it was not a difficult decision because the issues
are clear. We are entering a new period of international
affairs with the ending of the conflict between the super
powers. That's important because it opens up the
possibilities of an era of peace. But that means that we're
on trial as an international community in terms of our
capacity to make sure that in that new period if there is a
threat to basic principles of civilised international
relationships then we have to be prepared as an
international community that we won't tolerate that.
Now what we witnessed recently was a blatant attempt by a
relatively large power in regard to a small neighbour to say
we're going to invade you, we're going to obliterate you as
a separate identity, we're going to absorb you. Now if the
world was prepared to stand aside and accept that then no
principles of civilised and viable relationships between
nations would be possible. So in those circumstances it was
appropriate that firstly the United Nations made the
decisions in regard to sanctions that it did and then it was
appropriate that there should be a response as well to the
request for assistance that came from Kuwait. I believe
very much Greg that with the tradition that Australia has
had where we have been prepared, if necessary, to fight for
the protection of these principles of civilised
international relationships, that's the tradition of
Australia. That it was not conceivable to me that in this
sort of situation that we shouldn't be placing our forces at
the disposal of this state that had in fact been invaded and
in regard to which there'd been this attempted annexation.
HUNTING: The Iraqis of course have a very poor record on
human rights, the use of chemical weapons, that sort of
thing. PM: Against their own people too.
HUNTING: Exactly. I just wondered whether you might care
to comment on a report out of Canberra this afternoon that
up until two weeks ago Australia had actually approved the
sale of military hardware to Iraq. It's been cancelled
since the United Nations move but it was in fact I think
$ 850,000.
PM: It was just under a million dollars worth of aircraft
spares. We immediately cancelled that. In terms of the
supply of arms that's taken in place in the past to Iraq,
and that was in the context of the Iraq-Iran conflict, this
less than a million dollars is nothing. But nevertheless
HUNTING: It's the principle isn't it?
PM: It's the principle, and it had to be stopped.
HUNTING: Yes, and I just wondered, the justification though
of actually supplying a country that would use chemical
weapons against its own people. That was a fact then and
yet we still approve of the sale of arms
PM: I think that's a legitimate observation.
HUNTING: The same with Pakistan of course. We're selling
jets there.
PM: That situation where they were, it was open for world
wide tender. It wasn't specifically saying we will sell
them to Pakistan. That was the best offer that was made.
But we've made it clear, let me say, that if it became clear
that there was going to be an outbreak of hostilities
between Pakistan and India then we would be reviewing that.
HUNTING: Let's move onto some local issues now. As I
mentioned before we invited people to phone up and you've
got your headphones on there. You might like to have a
listen to a few questions that came our way today.
CALLER: ( inaudible)
PM: We don't want to take over the question of the
education of children. This convention is one that's been,
that we haven't rushed into. We've studied all the
implications of it. We've consulted widely within the
community. Other likeminded nations have made the decision
that it is a sensible thing to do in terms of the protection
of children. In this country of course, being a very
advanced sort of country, it's not an issue where we need so
much the protection of a United Nations convention any more
than, if you take the International Labor Organisation, that
we need the protection of the resolutions and conventions of
the International Labor Organisation. But it is important
that the international community sets standards like this
and that advanced countries like Australia play their part
because there are many countries in the world where what we
take for granted as the basic rights of children are abused
in other countries. So it's a case of Australia by its
example trying to exert an influence elsewhere. We don't
need so much that protection in this country because we've,
over time, come to accept these standards. But it will have
no impact in terms of the basic relationship that exists in
this civilisedi community between the twin responsibilities
of families for their own children and of governments to
provide educational facilities.
CALLER: ( inaudible)
PM: Well in regard to unemployment, let me say, as Greg
said I am now about seven and a half years into this job.
When I came to office unemployment in this country was
horrendous. We'd had the worst recession we'd had in
years. We have changed that by the simple fact, just a
simple stastic which no-one can or does challenge, that in
the period I've been in office we've had a rate of
employment growth which has been twice as fast as the rest
of the industrialised world, twice as fast. And that has
created a situation in which there are many many more
employment opportunities for Australians than there've been
before. I accept the fact, having said that and having
stated that record of which I'm proud, it is the case that
in the last twelve months we've had to slow down the level
of activity in this country to some extent because of a
simple fact. Let me give it to you. That in that previous
year our consumption in this country had increased by eight
per cent and our production by four per cent. And that gap
we were just making up by bringing in imports. We weren't
producing enough to sustain that level of imports. We had
to lower the level of activity and to some extent that will
marginally increase unemployment. If we hadn't done that we
would have, down the track, had a much more unsustainable
economic and employment situation. The second part of your
question went to small business. Let me say this in regard
to that part of your question, that I am very conscious of
the fact that around Australia and particularly in this
area, small businesses are very important in the whole
economic fabric of the community. We in fact, in the period
of the last Parliament, established under Mr Beddall who was
then a backbencher, a committe to report on the question of
small business and what should be done. That brought in a
very detailed report to us and it is interesting that now Mr
Beddall who chaired that committee is the Minister for Small
Business. We've already acted on some of the
recommendations of the report and we'll be considering now
each of those recommendations in the near future. Now, we
are particularly aware of the problem that you referred to
about the tight monetary conditions and the availability of
capital and we are in fact sending a reference to the
Industry Commission to inquire into this question of the
availability of capital which will include, in particular,
an investigation of the requirements of small business.
Having said that in regard to small business in particular
let me make this general observation in regard to interest
rates. I'm not a person who wants to either punish myself
I'm not a masochist and I don't want to punish others
I'm not a sadist. No politician who has the beginnings of
any sense is going to have interest rates for one day higher
than they need be. But we had to reduce this level of
activity so that we could have a sustainable level of
imports and monetary policy had to play its part in that.
This year we've twice reduced the level of interest rates.
We'll reduce them further when we believe it's safe to do
so. HUNTING: Right. We want to move on to some other local
issues too. Of course one big one up here, and I'm sure
you're well aware of it, is roads, the condition of the
Pacific Highway, funding for roads. We have a situation
here where just last year the Lismore City Council was
actually ploughing up bitumen roads, turning them back into
gravel because they say they don't have the funds to
maintain roads. Can we expect any relief in that area?
PM: Well in regard to roads generally we've, in our period
of government, significantly increased in real terms the
amount of funding available for roads. I'm very very
conscious Greg of the concern in this region generally about
the Pacific Highway generally. I hope you'll recall that on
the 14th of May my Minister for Land Transport, Bob Brown,
together with the NSW Minister for Transport announced a
package, a joint package of Commonwealth and NSW funding for
the Pacific Highway which will see about $ 3 million expended
over the next three years. In terms of comparisons that
would represent about a trebling of the amount spent over
the previous three years. We will use that money to address
the most pressing needs to have extra overtaking lanes and
to straighten out dangerous bends and curves. In the wider
sense we've got the $ 100 million blackspot program. Part of
that will be relevant here. And even more broadly than that
we've recently established Greg the Australian, the National
Road Trauma Advisory Council. In setting that up I'm going
to try and draw upon a whole range of expertise available in
this country to make recommendations to us as to the sorts
of things that we should be doing to deal with what are very
real problems.
HUNTING: Part of the complaint also from Local government,
and this is from the Local Government Association, is that
for the third year running, funding, federal grants have
actually dropped in real terms. They're saying this year it
may be a case of people having to pay to use libraries and
again further reduction in road and footpath maintenance.
PM: Let me make these points about funding to Local
government. It has been recognised, and publicly
recognised, by the Australian Local Government Association
that this Government has done more, not just in terms of
funding but also in recognition of the importance of local
government, than has ever been done before. Because I've
always believed that local government is an area which is
too much under-recognised. We get the highlights and the
exposure federally and so do State governments to some
extent. But as far as individuals are concerned, local
government is with them in an everyday sense. We've done
all that we can to try and lift the availability of funds
and their exposure. However, having said that, we have had
as part of the exercise of restraint that's required of
government so that we can free funds up and the savings of
the community for the private sector, we've had to call upon
the State government sector and the Local Government sector
to share the restraint that we've shown. In the last four
years there have been successively four years of real
reductions in Commonwealth outlays on our own expenditures
as we've tried to free up funds for investment by the
private sector. We've had to ask the State government area
and Local government to play some part in that.
HUNTING: Right, also still on Local Government, it's an
issue again that's a bit, if I can say tricky, up here and
it's a question of this $ 200 peak hour landing fee at Sydney
airport. The Mayor of Grafton has suggested that his city
may lose its air services altogether because only small
aircraft operate out of Grafton and when you add $ 200 to the
fare it becomes quite a deal more expensive. Are you going
to stick by that decision for that increase to landing fees.
PM: Yes, but this has got to be seen in the context of the
chaotic congestion of Kingsford-Smith airport. What the
background of this, Greg, is that changes to licensing of
intra-state, within-state commuter services, changes to
those licensing requirements by the NSW government have
simply resulted in a very significant increase, a very
significant increase in the number of peak period communter
services that are using Kingsford-Smith airport. Those
decisions of the NSW government have just added very very
significantly to the congestion of that airport. You have
the situation where the small commuter planes take up as
much time, demand as much resources as a jumbo full of 400
or 500 people. We are not saying to the commuter services
that Kingsford-Smith airport is not available to them.
We've simply got to make a range of decisions which relieve
that congestion which is particularly pressing in the peak
periods. The peak periods are essentially in the morning
between 7 and 9 and the evening between 4.30 and 7.30. Now
if they make arrangements so that they don't congest, go
into that period, then they don't meet this extra charge.
HUNTING: Local business people though do feel that if they
want to go to Sydney or have to go to Sydney for the day
they should be able to go in the morning and come home in
the evening rather than go, as you say, off-peak. It is a
very sore issue in the area for that reason.
PM: I can understand that but I also think that, I mean,
people here look at the issue and say well look, we've got a
great congestion at Kingsford-Smith airport, very very great
congestion, it's important for Australia, and they are part
of the country, it's terribly important for this country
that we free up, as far as we can, operations of that
airport for business reasons and certainly including for
tourist reasons. We simply won't be able to do that if we
say that in those peak periods very small aircraft, or just
relatively a handful of people are going to be able to
increasingly clog up the airport. So we've got to adopt
measures like this and of course what we're doing, as you
know, is looking at the question of the extension of
Kingsford-Smith airport and we're also, when that
environmental study and consideration of that is completed,
that extension may take place. We're also planning for,
into the future, for the growth of a second airport at
Badgerys Creek. But it would be simply irresponsible if we
said well we don't give a damn about this congestion, we'll
muck up the whole of our economy, our economic operations,
by allowing that congestion to get worse and worse. I
understand that creates some inconvenience. It's not done
to create inconvenience but we've got to tackle the larger
problems.
HUNTING: Right. Any timetable on when a decision may be
made on the third runway?
PM: I understand that the processes of the Environmental
Impact Statement are very very well advanced now. We'll be
in a position I can't give you an exact date but it won't
be too long into the future before we're considering that
report.
HUNTING: Fine, ok. Well finally, Mr Hawke, the election
result of the recent federal election here on the North
Coast must have delighted you.
PM: Of course it did Greg. Let me say this, that on the
Thursday night before the election I had some people at
Kirribilli House. After they'd left, Steve Loosley, then
the NSW Secretary of the Party, stayed behind. We were just
having a cup of tea together and he said well we will
deliver Page to you. I said thank you very much. And he
said and let me tell you this he said watch Richmond
very closely. I said you're kidding. He said I'm not. So
I wasn't altogether unforewarned about it but I'm terribly
pleased with the result. Let me, without being overtly or
overly partisan in my comments, I think really these
considerations were relevant. I think really there were
three considerations involved. Firstly I'm not putting
these in order of importance, but I think these three
factors are involved Greg. Firstly there's obviously been a
considerable change in the demography of the two
electorates. They're not just essentially rural-based
operations although those rural operations remain important.
There's been an influx of people with different backgrounds
and subject to different influences and so on, but that's
obviously been one factor. Secondly, and as I say, I don't
want to make because I don't go around the country
bagging my political opponents. If I think they're wrong on
an issue I'll attack them on that. But quite clearly, the
status of the National Party has suffered over recent years
in the northern part of NSW and in Queensland
HUNTING: ICAC in Queensland, yes.
( Ip ends 8
PM: and the National Party candidates suffered from that.
And thirdly, and very importantly, the quality of the
candidates we offered. Here in Richmond Neville Newell was
a fresh face and obviously a man of concern and compassion
and integrity. As in Page we had in Harry there, Harry
Woods, a bloke who was obviously a good candidate. So those
three factors, I can't give you the exact weighting of them.
But I think those three things, plus fourthly the fact that
people while they may not have liked some of the things
we've done thought we could tackle hard issues. How you
weight those four things I don't know, but they were the
things that counted.
BUNTING: Yes, there was a very big, obviously a very big
independent vote too I think. In fact the Labor vote
actually went down as did all the major parties votes in the
area. But it was a very interesting result. Mr Hawke, for
your time this afternoon we thank you very much.
PM: Greg, I've enjoyed it very much. Thank you to you and
to your listeners.