op PRIM AUTAIAISTE
TRANSCRIPT OF NEWS CONFERENCE, ANZAC COVE, GALLIPOLI,
APRIL 1990
E 0 E PROOF ONLY
JOURNALIST: How do you think the day has gone?
PM: I think it has been a day which everyone will
remember right from the very beginning we had the
moving Dawn Service and then right through the breakfast
it was good to see the, the old veterans together again
then and I think we had a very moving service at Lone
Pine and I think one of the most moving parts of the day,
of course, was at lunch time when we had the two old
veterans exchanging uniforms, boots, kisses, hugs, shakes
and then embracing one another here. After 75 years the
enemies of yesterday, they culminated it today.-It'* s
been altogether a most moving day and I'd like to express
my appreciation to the Turkish authorities, to our own
armed forces, to everyone in any way who's been
associated with organising the day. I think it's
something that will live in the minds of everyone who's
been here I'm sure.
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, do you think people back in
Australia who still think about the spirit of Anzac still
regard it as part of Australia's character?
PM: I think so. As I tried to say in the address, brief
address I gave at Lone Pine, I think it's the duty, the
responsibility of each new generation to reinterpret the
spirit and the meaning of Anzac and I hope that today,
through the contribution of the return of these great old
veterans and the association with it of so many people
the non political nature of it, we have our friends here
from the Opposition. I hope that all Australians can see
that, this is not just rhetoric, but that we are really
in what is sacred ground for Australians because here was
the, here was the forging place of the Australian
character where men gave their lives to express their
commitment to one another, to their dependency upon each
other, to the concept of mateship. It was a military
defeat, but it was a great victory for the Australian
spirit I believe.
JOURNALIST: This battlefield where we're standing now
epitomises what you were talking about at Lone Pine
doesn't it?
PM: This is, I think, the saddest part of a tragic
campaign because here, as we know, four successive lines
of 150 men went over the top here up to heavily fortified
Turkish lines and they knew, when they went over the top
what their fate was. The first line of 150 was mown
down, second line went and the same thing. Questions
were raised about whether the third or fourth line were
going, but they went and each man involved knew what
awaited him. As Peter was saying, they took their
wedding rings off and hung them on the nails in the
trenches and left their messages behind because they knew
that they were going to almost certain death. Out of the
600 that went across, as I recall, something only like
to 60 of them emerged not either killed or wounded and to
no avail.
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, can you talk to us about how
the Thatcher talks went?
PM: No, we covered the globe really. Very interested to
share her thinking and her meeting with George Bush about
the situation in Eastern Europe, the pressures upon the
Soviet Union, particularly in regard to the Baltic
States. I don't want to go to the, the details, but I
was very pleased to hear what she had to say and there
was congruence of thinking as far as we were concerned on
that issue.
JOURNALIST: What about South Africa
PM: Yes, we did talk about that and we agreed that the
changes that were, had been made by President de Klerk
were significant, but more had to be done and we had a
serious discussion about that.
JOURNALIST: Prime Minister, was Gallipoli a wasted
exercise that Australia better off without it?
PM: Well countries would always, in a sense, be better
off without war and the death that goes with war. But
given the fact that we were at war, the decision had been
taken to have the Dardanelles campaign, a decision as so
often in those early days, was made not within Australia
but in England. Given that that decision was taken and
that Australian troops were committed to it, it was a
campaign that from the beginning had no chance of
victory. Very interesting if you read the history. I've
had access through a number of articles I've read to the
minutes of the imperial war cabinet, it's quite clear
that Kitchener believed that it was a futile exercise.
He was against it from the beginning and he said that if
it were to be undertaken you would need at least 200,000
troops and of course all that they were given was 70,000,
so it was mission impossible, in that sense, from the
beginning. And you must remember that the furthest point
of entry into the Peninsula was made on the first day,
they never got further than they did on the first day.
It was an heroic containment exercise with no chance of
achieving the objective. Now within that rather hopeless
strategic framework it was nevertheless a glorious
chapter in Australia's nationhood because, as I've said,
if you read the, what was written at the time by the men
themselves, and they were prolific writers, fascinating
to see how much they did write and they themselves said
that no longer were they just West Australians or
Queenslanders, they regarded this exercise as the making
of Australia and the making of Australians. And we, we
pride ourselves on the concept of mateship in Australia
and there is no doubt that here in Gallipoli where eight
and a half thousand Australians laid down their lives,
the concept of mateship was transfigured from just a
concept into a flesh and blood reality. Now how do you
measure those things? You can't say those things are all
waste. Waste of life was shocking but given the
inevitability of the exercise in which they were engaged,
great, great things came out of it for our country I
believe.
JOURNALIST: Is there any one moment or incident in the
day that will stand out in your memory do you think?
PM: There are many. I think perhaps in a sense the most
moving was seeing those two old veterans, the Turkish
veteran, I think, was 102 I think he was the one I was
told was 102-years of age and old Jack the man who has
been kissing Hazel around Australia, in Perth, in Sydney
and wherever he could in Turkey, he was there and here
were these two old enemies exchanging uniforms, embracing
one another. As I say to see the enemies of yesterday
become the comrades of today that was a very moving
experience. But in another sense I find it difficult to
have a more meaning experience to be here and to have
General Peterson going over with me the events of the
Necks. As I said, I think here we are standing on what
was really the most tragic part of a tragic campaign,
those 600 young Australians had no chance and they knew
they had no chance but over they went.
JOURNALIST: Mr Hawke, 75 ago maybe think about where
we would be in another seventy five years a
Republican system?
PM: Should we what?
JOURNALIST: Should we look toward a Republic
PM: Those thoughts didn't come into my mind. The one
thing. that I am certain of is that we should be the
masters of our own destiny. We went through two world
wars in which for too many important parts of those two
world wars we were the masters of our own destiny. But
now we must realise that while we have friends and allies
we must both develop the capacity to defend ourselves but
also make sure that in the conduct of our affairs that we
are the masters of our own destiny, that where we commit
ourselves that it's by our own decision and not by the
decision of others.
JOURNALIST: We have this remarkable relationship between
Australia and Turkey, Prime Minister, I imagine you would
like to see the same sort of relationship between
Australia and Japan?
PM: Well the relationship between Australia and Japan
doesn't come as easily now because the time of conflict
is closer, but it is very important that we do as far as
we can put those events behind us too because we live in
a world now in 1990, 45 years after the end of the Second
World War which is a world unrecognisably different from
that of the end of the Second World War and the future of
Australia is very much a future bound up with Asia and is
a very important part of that future. And while we will
never forget the tragedy of war and the involvement of
the Japanese in that war, what is certain, as we can be
of anything, is that the future of our children and their
children is going to be very much determined by the
quality of our relationship with Asi'a in general, and to
an extent with Japan in particular, so we must learn how
to work with them and live with them as friends and not
as enemies.
JOURNALIST: Another question on South Africa, Prime
Minister. Do you expect that sanctions will be eased at
the forthcoming Commonwealth Foreign Ministers Meeting?
PM: No I think that what will happen at that May meeting
of the Commonwealth Foreign Ministers on South Africa
meeting is that they will undertake the most up to date
review of what is happening in South Africa and they will
S wfiilrls, t lyI bweelliceovmee-thbee wcahnatnignegs ttoh ats eeh avfeu rtbheeern mchaadneg ebsu. t they
You've got to remember that the four pillars of
apartheid, the four legislative pillars of apartheid
could variate the Population Act, the Land Act the
Separate Amenities Act, those four pillars of apartheid
are still in place. Now I was one of the first to
recognise and to welcome the significance of the changes
that have been signalled by President de Klerk but he has
got to go further and it was rather disappointing the
other day where he seemed to go so far in terms of
talking about one vote one value but then, at the end,
had this phrase which said we will never allow majority
rule. Now that was something which didn't sit with what
he had said before or with what the world requires of
South Africa so we must put the pressures upon de Klerk,
make him recognise that he has his own difficulties in
South Africa. He has his extremists on the right that he
has to deal with, so we have to walk this difficult line
of recognising the significance of the changes that he
has -made but also demanding that those changes must lead
inevitably and logically to the position of one person,
a one vote, one value in which it will be possible for the
black majority to rule. But at the same time as we're
working for that we must be impressing upon our black
African friends that it is in their interests and in the
interest of South Africa and in the interest of the
region and in the interest of the world that, as we move
to the possibility of black majority rules, that they
should recognise the contribution that white South
Africans can make to the future of a free South Africa
and that is going to require not prejudice and rhetoric
but hard work.
JOURNALIST: Are you still at odds though with Margaret
Thatcher on the issue of sanctions.
PM: Oh Mrs Thatcher made it quite clear really that she
would prefer to see either no sanctions or limited
sanctions and she would be wanting to lift them, those
that are there, faster than others. But we are at one at
wanting to see a democratic, racially tolerant South
Africa and we will differ on the means and the pace on
getting there but the Commonwealth as a whole I think
will have the view that I've just expressed.