MINTErS: MR BOB HAWKE12.11.89 Paqe 1
THE PRIME MINISTER, MR BOB HAWKE,
INTERVIEWED BY MR RICHARD CARLETON
ON 60 MINUTES, SUNDAY 12th November 1989
MR CARLETON:
MR HNWEs
MR CARLETON:
MR RAIIKE;
MR CARLETON: Do you fear a united Germany?
Fear, no, I think we shouldn't fear it, I
think it is inevitable.
But two mighty wars this century, why not a
third?
Because we do live in times of the most
-dramatic change. War in 1914-12, even war
in 1939-45, while disastrous, never
threatened the annihilation of mankind from
this planet. Now war means that.
According to the Prime Minister, it is not
just East Germany, it is the whole
communist system that is in trouble. c22
MINUTES: MR BOB HAWXZ 12.11.89 waqe 2
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON;
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWIN:
MR CARLETON: I mean, you have had now more than seventy
years of this rule, in the Soviet Union,
and they still can't feed themselves.
Their people still queue up for basic
necessities. It is a. failed economic
sytemn.
Failure, and economics. You have been in
power, not seventy years but seven years.
Nearly., We've got an inflation rate of eight per.
cent and each month we are spending two
billion dollars more overseas than we
earn. Skf.. by those two measures you are a
failure too may I suggest.
You may suggest it, but may I suggest that
that is a very selective picking of the
critera. May I suggest-
We'll go to interest rates as well.
Sure, and we'll go to employment. We'll go
to the fact that we have created 1.6
million new jobs, which is a rate of
employment creation more than four times
faster than our predecessors, more than
twice as fast as the rest of the world.
Look, I'll concede that you've been a good
Prime Minister. That Australia is a more
gentle, a caring and a more equal place
MINUTES: MR BOB RAWXZ12.11.89 Paqe 2
XZNUT! S: MR BOB RAWKE 12.11.89 Psa. 3
MR HAWKE: Yen.
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE: than it was some years ago. But the fact
of the matter is air, that you have failed.
No veil
zVve got to pay 17 per cent for a housing
interest loan here. In Japan they pay six.
okay. inl France and Germany they pay less than
ten. In Switzerland they pay six too.
okay, okay.
Why under your management have we got to
pay 17?
well the rates of interest under us haven't
reached the peak that they did under the
other mob first of all.
Well no
Well wait a minute. But wait a minute, you
don't live in Switzerland, you live in
Australia. You'* ve got to make a choice,
within an historical context, where in fact
no government in th. past has been able to
control wages. And so historically in
Australia that's where you're going to
live I hope, I hope you're not going to
live in Japan or somewhere else
MINUTES: MR BOB HAWKE12,11.89 Pace 3
MINUTES: HR BOB HAWKE 12.11.89 Paqe 4
MR CARLETON:
MR RANKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR RANKS: Nov come on, onto the point.
in Australia, the... context is this. That
historically no government has been able to
control wages, to keep a situation where
the Richard Carletons and everyone in this
community have got security of employment.
Because there's been boom and bust.
Interest rates are at that level, not
because I want to impose any hardship on
you, and I guess you can probably cope.
But certainly I don't want to impose
hardship on your ordinary viewers. But I
know, from our historical experience, that
if I don't have monetary policy tight for
the time being, then the economy will
collapse, because you will suck in that
many imports that the exchange rate will
collapse, interest rates through the roof
and the economy's gone.
So we've got to all exercise the restraint
and bear the pain of high interest rates to
just bring the level of activity down
-somewhat.
Mr Hawke, I've been listening to
politicians for years and years and years
telling me about..
I've been listenting to interviewers too
MINUTES: MR BOB RAPME12.11.89 Paqe 4
MINUTES: MR BOB ELANKE121.9ae5
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLSTON;
MR RAWEE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON: Yes, I know. Telling me that they've just
about got the solution, just give me a few
more months, a few more weeks, even a year,
one more term in office.
But I'm not saying, I'm not saying, just
wait for a few more I'm saying with
pride, that in this six and a half years,
getting on for seven years I'm saying,
look at that, I'm not saying just wait for
that, I'm saying that now that kids are
getting employment. Their parents who are
in work have got secure employment.
That's a product of the past, of what we've
done. Prime minister, Bangladesh can run an
airline. Zaire can run an airline.
Australia can't. May I suggest
Australia can run an airline, what are you
talking about.
we're not doing a real good job at the
moment. on the contrary, I mean, you compare the
airlines of Australia with those
countries. We leave them for dead.
Well there's no airline, I couldn't get a
plane today, couldn't get a plane on
Wednesday. The programme's been chartering
planes for 13 weeks.
I 12.11.89 Pace
MINUTES: MR DOE HAWKE 12.11.89 Pan. 6
MR HAWE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR RAWKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR RAWKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE: Now, now are you really saying
The airlines are in chaos hers.
Are you really saying . to me, you are
comparing Zaire and Bangladesh and you want
to compare our airlines with theirs, and
you take this moment. If you took the
point up
13 weeks without planes. St5 the buck's got
to stop somewhere and I suggest it stops
vith you.
The buck has stopped. The fact is that the
airlines are being recreated. They will be
back in full operation in the early part of
next year.
March, says Abeles.
Well-We've had it for three months and we're
looking at another five.
Okay, okay. What's the alternative? The
alternative-we could have fixed this
dispute, that started back, in the middle
of last year. Could have fixed it,
eliminated it, just like that, by doing
what? Saying to the pilots
MCR aCvRLiZnONg: in to the pilots.
MINUT29i MR BOB HAWKE12.11.89 Paan 6
MR CARLZTOX:
MINUTES: MR BOB HAWKE 12.11.89 Paae 7
MR HAWIKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKEs
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWE:
MR CARLETON: Yes, and I tell you what, if we've done
that, you would have not only destroyed
your airline industry, you would have
destroyed the Australian economy.
But look, it's a disgrace that Australia
can't have planes in the air for what is
going to be eight months apparently.
We've had planes in the air, we haven't had
as many but
Oh but it's laughable, what's going on now.
Well, it's hardly laughable. They are
being built up gradually and the full
system will be restored. And it will be
restored but we-
By March?!
But, but, Just, okay, just, stop the anger
a bit and come down to no you-
Put it now The tourism industry that's
being ruined,-and Skase is going bust
because he can't fill the mirage resorts,
no planes will go there.
Yes, you are saying* you are saying Skase
is going bust because of the airlines
dispute I would love to have an
anaog is that your analysis?
.: r-Mirage resorts going bust because the
planes won't go there.
MIUTES: MR 30B HAWKE 21.9Pq
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HANKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR ZAWKS:
MR CARLETON: Are you saying that Skase is going bust
because the airlines
Skase's Mirage Resorts, all right?
Get the grin off your face, you know you're
you know
You too.
You know, yeah. Now, let's go back to
this. if you want to compare the airline
industry, in Australia, into the future,
with what it's been, let me tell you this.
That when the airlines resume operations in
a full sense next year, we will have an
airline industry which will be fifty per
cent more productive than the one we had
from the middle of 1989.
True it is, problems now, and I have never
denied that, but-
But you can't!
No0, but what about, what about acknowledging,
what about acknowledging the fact, no
one's disputing it, that as from the
beginning of next year, a fifty per cent,
and a continuously fifty per cent more
productive and efficient airline industry.
That will be the outcome.
Prime llinist~ r, I just can't, for the life
of me 12.11.89 Paqe 8
MINUTS: MR BOB HAWKE 12.11.89 Pace 9
MR NKI:
MR CARLETON:
MR RANKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR RANKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR3 HAWKE:
MR CARLETOM:
MR HAWKE i well you just ignore that do you?
No, no. Well if it comes about, if and
when it comes about, fine.
Why, why won't it come about.
Well YOU say it will, it probably will.
Yes. But how can you sit there and believe that
you have given leadership to this country,
when we've had our airlines down
The leadership that this country required
is the leadership that I have given, and
that is, not what the alternative you
know what the opposition were saying? Give
in. Give in. That's not leadership, that
There's got to be a better way.
There-is no way, there is no way Richard,
when you have a situation of having
pleaded, as I did, with the AFAP. I
pleaded with them. I said, negotiate
within the system, like every other
organisation. They refused. If they had
been given in to then you know that every
other union would have said, okay, that's
the norm, thirty per cent.
MINUTES: MR BOB VIWKE l2. ll. 89Paqe
MR CARLETON:
MR RNKSI:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HIAWKE: And there were many with the industrial
muscle and capacity to talce it and grab
it. That would haye ruined the economy.
And leadership was about not giving in to
blackmail to destroy the industrial
relation~ saystem, and to destroy the
Australian economy. That is what
leadership was about.
Prime Minister, I want to suggest to you
that maybe, just maybe, you've lost just a
bit of your touch on this.
well-I mean-
You can suggest it, but you're wrong.
The community I suggest is laughing at you,
not with you, when you say silly thingslike,
there's no dispute in the airline
industy.
Well if I'd said that, they would be
entitled to laugh at me and so would you
and so would everyone. The trouble is, I
never said it. Now why, what purpose do
you have? I assume not deliberately, but
what purpose do you have in misquoting me?
I never said that. if I had they would
have been entitled to laugh at me.
MINUTES: MR BOB HAWKE12.11.89 Paqe
Now if you quote, and it's a pity you
can't, if you quoted accurately what I
said, that the industrial dispute was
finished. A point which has been conceded
may I say by every editorial writer. Every
person who's commented on the dispute.
Hawke is correct in saying that the
industrial dispute is over. And that is
simply, not a semantic point. It's a very
important point to understand about that.
It is true, as a fact, that once the
Federation of Pilots said to their members#
you resign, resign, and take all your
entitlements, which they have done, then
the Federation didn't have employees.
And what's been happening, and this is the
point of saying that that industrial
dispute is over, not that the problems in
the industry and the aftermath of that
industrial dispute aren't there, but the
important point is what the industrial
Relations Commission has said, that the
rebuilding of the airlines industry is not
in the resolution of a finished, over
industrial dispute. The resolution of the
problems is in encouraging people now to
sign those contracts.
MR CARLETON: Srto assert that the industrial dispute is
over, as you have done here today, I think,
lifts peals of laughter across the suburbs
of Melbourne.
MINUTES: MR BOB HAWKE 21.9 ae1
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
RR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:-
MR HANKS:
MR CARLETON: Well it doesn't, it doesn't lift, it
doesn't bring peals of laughter, from those
who know the realities. I mean, you ask
But if the realities out there are out
there at the airport, you just can't ge t on
a plane.
But I am not saying -Imean, why do you
insist Richard in misrepresenting what I am
saying. I am not saying, that there aren't
still problems. of course there are
problems. Aren't there going to be
problems if all the pilots in an industry
resign. They . resign~ i They finishdheir
employment nexus. You only have an
industrial dispute, an industrial dispute
as we know it within our system# if you've
got employees, and an employer there.
There is no industrial dispute between the
airlines and those people who are now
employed by them. No industrial dispute at
all. So you are saying-
And there will be no industrial dispute
between the airlines and the increasing
numbers of people who are going back into
them, as pilots.
You said the other day that you were a
little tired, I think I quote you correctly
12.11.89 Pace 12
MINUTES: MR SOB HAWK! 12.11.89_ Paqe 13
MR SAWKZ:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWEE:
MR CARLXTON:
MR HAWIN: No no, no. I no let me get it straight
again. I
maybe I've got two mistakes, ' a little
tired and a bit dreary' was wore both of
those wrong?
No no. I said about the answers I gave you,
I mean you are running things there get
your research people to do it better. I
was asked about what had been, not a
glorious week in Parliament. And in I
said, in respect to myself, a few of my
answers might have been a bit long and a
bit boring.
And they said, what are you going to do
about it. And I said, I'm going to get a
bit more sleep. But I can assure you#
Richard, I will be going into this period
between now and the next election as
vibrant and as fit and active as I've ever
been. Do you think it's possible that the
community is getting a bit tired of you?.
Oh, they could be. I don't know, I don't
know that any person can ever retain, I
mean I reached very very high lerels of
approval, I would have regarded Aas
impossible, I did at the time, and I said
so. You'll never, I said to my people,
you'll never have those levels of approval
retained.
MINUTES: MR BOB HAWKE12.11.89 Paqe 13
M! NU~ rIS:_ MR BOB IIAWKE 12.11.89 Page_ 14
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWRLS:
MR CARLETON:
14R HAWKS:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE: And I wouldn't have the approval rating in
19 at the end of 1989 that I had in 1983
and I never expected to retain those.
What is your approval rating now?
it varies which, which poll you can see.
But just lot me Bay this. Which is an
important thing. I wouldn't swap my
approval rating
For Andrew'sl
Ah well, you said it, you said it.
Had any second thoughts about Keating?
I've never had any second thoughts, I mean
I've always thought since he's been my
Treasurer, that he is an outstanding
Treasurer and never had any doubts about
that and he still is an outstanding
Treasurer. But it was unforgiveable the attack he made
on Elliott the other day, I mean totally
unsubstantiated, totally personal and he
should apologise for it surely?
Look, Paul will make his decision about~ he
handles those things. I think he feels
that he might have handled it different,
differently, if he had had his time again.
MINMS: MR BOB RAWKE12.11.39 Page 14
MINUTES: MR BOB HAWKS 12.11.89 Paqe
MR CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
14R CARLETON:
MR HAWKE:
MR CARLETONs well why can't he stand up and be a man and
and apologise?
Well look, I am not going to be interviewed
for, for Paul. I will defend Paul as a
Treasurer, I will defend him as a great
parliamentarian. I will defend him as a
man who's got an enormous comaittment to
this country.
Now in terms of particular actions over a
particular issue, and why shouldn't he do
something now, you should ask Paul. All
I'm saying is, I have total confidence in
Paul Keating as-an outstanding Treasurer.
I say of him, and I think he would say this
of himself if you asked him, that he would
have preferred, if he could have had his
time again on that issue, to have handled
it somewhat differently.
I might have got a few lines wrong there in
those quotes Prime Minister but X wasn't
wrong, you don't want to correct me*-about
saying that you've been a good Prime
Minister? Thanks mate.
Thanks a lot.
MINUTZS: MR BOB RAWXE12.11.89 Pacre