PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF AN INTERVIEW/ TALKBACK WITH BOB MAUMILLf RADIO 2UE.
APRIL 1989.
E 0 E PROOF ONLY.
MAUMILLt We'll get straight into this. Will I get a couple of
the questions over that, sort of, they don't let you become a
member of the AJA, unless you ask?
PM: OK.
MAUMILL: OK. Are you taller than John Howard, and is there
going to be an early election?
PM: Scintillating.
MAUMILL: Everyone seems to ask that. I want my eight cents a
day back because Andrew Olle's one of my idols and I saw you with
him on the ABC the other night on Four Corners and you buried him
in statistics, and the only time he looked comfortable was whon
he said, ' Are you taller than John Howard?'.
PM: Penetrating stuff, wasn't it?
MAUMILLs Yes. Surely, the national debate on ABC TV should go
beyond that. Anyway, let's go to the phones and see what the
people of New South Wales have got to ask you, because I'm not
going to try and be clever like my colleagues. I'll let the
people do it for me. Good day, Roley. How are you this morning?
How are you going, Roley?
CALLERs Well thanks, Bob.
MAUMILL: Where are you calling from, Role?
CALLERs Newcastle.
MAUMILL: Yes. We go loud and clear to Newcastle. What's up,
mate? CALLER: I'd like to talk to the Prime Minister, if I may, over a
few problems on the water
MAUMILLs Hello.
PM: He's got problems all right.
2..
MAUMILLs Yes. Problems from Newcastle# Try and get him back if
we kept his number. we'll go to the next call. Arthur's on
line. Morning, Arthur. You there, Art?
CALLER-. Mr Hawke, I've got a Congratulation and a question for
you. PM: Thanks, Arthur.
CALLER: Well, the congratulation is congratulations on Senator
Richardson and your stand on the Greens and holding up the
forests against predators. Is there anything in the way of
enterprise and land that you wouldn't allow to be sold to
predatory Japan, and will you list all the stuff that's already
been sold?
HAUMILL: Hang up, Arthur, and listen to the answer.
PM: Well, down to what's sold. Basically, this comes into the
area of State regulation and some States keep lists; others
refuse to. So, it's not within our Jurisdiction to keep a list,
Arthur, of acquisitions 4-~ ctV ore CvNc6e. in various States, but on
this question of investment by other countries, not just Japan,
and certainly won't discriminate against any particular country,
we need investment here. We can't simply put a wall around
Australia and say, ' We're not going to trade with or have mutual
investments with other countries'. The distinction between my
Party, my Government, and the other side is that we at least,
keep some oversight on it. We have the Foreign Investment Review
Board and we won't let investment take place in this country
unless it's consistent with the national interest. The Libs have
in their policy the decision to abolish the Foreign Investment
Review Board and just have open slather. That's the difference.
XAUMILLs Let's go back to the phones. Good day, Zara. How are
you doing? Young caller, Prime Minister, to talk to you this
morning. Morning, Zara.
CALLER: Yes?
MAUXILL: Go ahand.
PM: Good day, Zara.
CALLER: Hello. Good morning, mister.
PM: How are you?
CALLERs I'm good, thank you.
PMs Good.
CAILER: Just answer a question I want to ask you all the time.
CALLER ( cont): When you had in Australia, the amnesty for the
overs visitors I call them, but some people call them illegal
migrants, and the last one we had Mr Fraser, he gave the
last one, and he say we didn't have another one, and just, you
know, been wondering why, and if we'going to have another one
soon? MAUMILL: Hang up, Zara. We'll give you the answer. Zara wants
an amnesty for all her relations who are here illegally.
PM: Well, we're not promising another one, Zara. For the very
simple reason that we have about a million people each year
around the world who go through the normal processes, seek and
make application to become immigrants to Australia, and as you
know, we can only have about a hundred and forty thousand a year.
Now, it would be totally unfair to those who go through the
proper legal processes of seeking to come here according to the
laws of this country, to say, ' Well, bad luck you. We'll take
away half the available spaces by allowing to stay here, people
who haven't abided by the law'. That sort of thing is not on.
MAUMILL: Nor it should be.
PM: Thank you, Robert.
MAUMILL: Let us talk to, Roley. Morning, Roley.
CALLER. Hello, Bob.
PMt Good day, Roley. How are you?
MAUMILLs Roley, we lost you from Newcastle before. Say good
morning to the Prime Minister again.
CALLER: Prime Minister, how are youwell?
PM: Good, mate.
CALLER: I've got several queries. I'm an ordinary working chap.
I work on the wharves.
PM: Good on you.
CALLER: And there's a few queries I'd like to get cleared up, if
I may.
PMs Sure.
CALLER: On the thirty-first of January a ship arrived from
Brazil and brought in three and a half thousand tons of
concentrated orange juice. Now, that was consigned to Mildura.
Is that necessary, do you think, Bob?
PM: Well, let me put it to you this way, Roley. As you're a
4. PM ( cont): wharf je you live on the basis on trade, and if you
didn't have trade both into and out of the country, you'd be out
of a job. So, youwvgot a vested interest in trade both ways.
Now, the second thing to say is this. I've been spending years
since I've been Prime Minister personally, and having my Ministers
going around the world, arguing the case for Australian farmers,
producers; that they get a fair deal on world markets. They
don't have barriers put up against them in the United States,
Japan and Europe to stop our products getting in there, and
gradually we're winning that and the more I win that argument on
behalf of Australian producers, the better off we're going to be.
Now, you can't have a double standard. You can't say, ' Well,
we're going to go round and tell the rest of the world that they
can't have barriers against our products', but say, ' Key, prestol
We'll do the same thing ourselves'. We can't live by double
standards, Roley.
MAUMILLt No. With an agricultural hinterland like us, it just
seems to me to be ludicrous that we import something as basic to
the Australian average household, as orange juice.
PM: That's a different point as to whether, in fact, our people
here don't organise themselves better because they've got a
natural advantage. Here they haven't got anyii CLRK-That's a
different proposition, whether they can't organ so themselves
better to make ours so much more financially attractive that
there's no case for bringing in the other.
MAUMILLt Yes, because I draw your attention to the fact that
Roley didn't say, ' Don't bring it in', he just said, ' Why should
we?'. PM: Yes. Well, that's right, but what I'm saying is there's two
ways in which you can stop it. Either by artificial, you know,
tariffs and so on; that's what I'm directing myself to. We're
not going to be a party to that. We want to gradually reduce
protection, but I take Roley's point that if he'. talking about
the inadequacy of our own producers here in seeing that they
market theirs at a competitive price, that's another proposition
and there may be something wrong with the way they go about
their business.
M4AUMILL: Roley, I had a call on talkback radio yesterday from a
couple of wharf iou at Newcastle. You seem to be organising
yourself to talk to the media up there. It cropped up in
conversation on my programme yesterday from one of your mates,
about steel from Spain that was coming in too. You're unloading
three and a half thousand tones of steel rods.. AreYou working on
that boat?
CALLER: We do, Bob.* There' s an article in the Telegraph of
Tuesday April 18, and it cited BHP as a model to industry. Now,
there' s a ship coming in the twenty-eighth with seven thousand
ton of steel from Spain and over the last eighteen months that I
CALLER ( cont); can recall, I can recall six ships that come from
Spain and Brazil. Now, there again, Bob, is that necessary?
PM: well, again I go partly back to the answer I gave before,
but there'sa more to it than that. Firstly, I repeat the point,
we're not going to have a situation in this country where we're
having double standards, : iae we're going around the world and
arguing for free access for our products to the rest of the
world, and putting up barriers against stuff coming into
Australia. That's point one, but the second point is1 I'd just
remind you, Roley, that you'd certainly remember because you
follow these things obviously, that in 1983, when we came to
office, the steel industry was on the verge of extinction. They
were seriously thinki~ ng about closing down the steel industry and
we said, ' Bull to that. That is not on'. We said, ' We're going
to save the steel industry', and we did. We had a steel industry
plan. Established a Steel industry Authority and we saved the
steel industry. it's now very, very much more efficient. so,
one other side of the coin in regard to what you see coming in
here is also, that our steel industry in exporting. We've
increased our exports because we've become more efficient. Now,
under the Steel Industry Authority that we set up, Roley, we
monitored the level of imports so that our industry was basically
able to be operating in a way which had the great muajority of the
Australian market, and I think, it would be the consensus view of
the industry, that is both the unions working in the industry and
BHP itself, that we've struck a pretty fair balance. In other
words, we are providing the overwhelming proportion of Australian
steel requirements out of our own industry. We're also exporting
some of our product and we've got a relatively smal11 level of
imports. It's not a bad mix and it's certainly infinitely better
to the situation that I inherited in 1983 where the industry was
on the way out.
MAUXILLi Many of us applauded the move that John Button made in
revitalising the steel industry, but surely here, when you look
at it, it's difficult for a bloke like Roley, and certainly
someone like myself, to accept that we need to employ steel-
PM: Import. Import steel.
MAUMILLs Import steel, when we've got the technological knowhow.
We've got the raw materials, and there's no question that we've
got the people and the facilities. Yet, the big Aus tralian's
bringing steel in from Spain and Brazil; thousands of tonnes of
it, processed. Now, I've heard you and Paul Keating both say
that we've got to get involved in the manufacturing chain. it's
just not good enough for us to supply the raw materials to the
world. We should be processing the products as well. Well, here
it is, we're importing it from Spain. What's going wrong?
PH: No. No. Get both sides of the story. We are, in fact,
exporting steel products as well, and I think It's arguable, I
don't set myself it's arguable that BHP could have made some
PM ( cont) s its investment decisions earlier, QO* olu Oincrease
its capacity, but they are doing that flow. I was up there the
other day and was involved with commissioning of a new part of
their plant. I think it's arguable that they could have moved
earlier. If they had, then we would be supplying more of our
own, and be able to export more, but I think, that you've got to
take the view, looking at it overall, that we've improved our
position enormously. I mean, they were seriously, in 1982-3,
thinking of shutting down the Australian steel industry
altogether. Now, we' ve converted that. We've now made the.
industry much more competitive and as a result of the decisions
they are making now to create more capacity, we'll be able to
supply more of our~ jnroduct ourselves, and export more, but I
concede that in the meantime, while there's some being imported
that must be a bit frustrating.
MAUMILLt Yesj because I mean, you are exhorting us to buy
Australian products.
PM Too right.
MAUM ILL: And people should be.
PHI Yes.
MAUMILL: But orange juice comes f rom Brazil. I presue it gets
packaged in Australia and then sold as Australian orange juice.
Steel comes from Spain and Brazil. I would presume that it would
be used in Australian manufacturing; probably Australian tins,
too, and would be the most expensive part of an Australian
product. Yet,, so we may buy it with an Australian label on it
but the ingredients, and indeed much of the packaging in steel
cans and things, could come from outside Australia?
PM: No. The overwhelming proportion of the packaging for
Australian products is made in Australia and in that area, I
simply say in regard to orange juice, I think there is somethinguJri
with the industry if they can't overcome the additional transport
costs that there are, that they don't, But I do in the end, come
9 back to the point which you have got to grasp, my dear friend, in
this. We can't put a bloody great fence around Australia and
any, ' We don't trade with the rest of the world'.
MAUMILL: No. We don't.
PM: No, but wait a minute, but you don't want us to import any
orange juice. You don't want us to import any steel. What do
you want us to import?
MAUMILL: I didn't say, ' I don't want you to'. I'm saying, ' Why
should we?'.
PM: Well, I'm saying that as far as possible
MAUMILL: It's your job to fix it up.
PM: Yes, and I've saved the steel industry. It was on the way
out when I came in. That's what the Libs had done af ter seven
years; destroyed the steel industry. We saved it. Now, I also
amr wanting to make sure we get the best possible deals for our
farmers who are getting a rough deal. They are the most
efficient producers in the world and they've been shut put of
Europe. They've been shut of Japan. They've been shut~' bf the
united States. Now, I can'It have my blokes going around the*
world and having myself going around the world arguing to all
these countries saying, ' Cut down your tariff walls. Cut down
your artificial barriers to entries to the products from my
country', and ay, ' But we don't want any of yours'.
MAUMILL: Yes. That's presuming that you're right.
PM: Well, I am on this.
MAUMILLs Are you?
PHI Well, do want our farmers to have free access to these
countries? MAUMILL: Yes.
PM: Good. OK. Well, then I can't go and preach to them; no
tariff barriers, no artificial barriers to the products from
Australia, and at the same time say, ' But I'm sorry, boys. You
shut your eyes while I put"? barrier to yours'
MAUMILL: Yes.
PM: You wouldn't conduct
MAUMILL: No, but I would think there should be some horse
trading. P14: Well, there is some horse trading. ( inaudible).
MAUMILL: ( Inaudible) That's another question. Poverty stricken
talkback radio commentator
PM: ( Inaudible) You're in a good paddock.
MAUMILLs You're good. You are. We'll take a couple of
commercial breaks. I'll. read one. You sip your coffee. We'll
come back in a minute. Have a look at them.
PM; I could read it better than you.
MAtUMIIL: Yes. Go. I mucked it up last time.
PM: Yes. OK. Top class fashion from the top class shopping
Pm ( cont); centre. it's the Top Ryde Shopping Square fashion
parade. Now, I better not read anymore. You take it over from
there.
MAuxiILLs why? Do you think you'll be asked to read all of them?
PM4: Well, I might be asked to read all of them then.
MAUMILL: But as my girlfriend says, you still talk through your
nose. Listen from this, from down in here. I've been to the
John Laws school of elocution.
PM: Yes. You've got plenty to come from there. Plenty to come
from down there, mate. Very resonant.
Commercial break.
MAUMILL: Back to the phones we go. Bill's on line four. That's
it. Good day, Bill.
CALLER: Good morning, Mr Prime Minister.
PM: Good day, Bill.
CALLER: Bob's putting you in a bad mood?
PMi No. Having a great time.
MAUXILL: Nio. I didn't. I can handle him. I always look at
this way, Bill. If I say, ' That's enough Prime Minister. Got
out of my studio'. I make the front pages tomorrow and I stay
there for a week. So, he needs me, and blokes like me.
P14: Bill, I'm in a great mood. He's a great mate of mine.
CALLER: Prime Minister, I'm a supporter of the Labor Party.
Nevertheless, I take issue with the Federal Government's decision
to construct a third runway into Botany Bay.
PM: Where do you live, Bill.
CALLERs I live at Kurnell, on the peninsula.
PM: Yes.
CALLER: You know, for years the Labor Party, both Federal and
State, were opposed to that third runway and that decision's been
changed-now. I certainly hope that the decision will be reversed
when the EIS is put forward.
PM: Well, the Environmental Impact Study will be undertaken and
it'll be a serious one, but Bill, let me say this. When I
started to look at this closely when one had to come up bef ore
Cabinet, I and those around me actually, advising me, we all
PH ( cont) 3 thought that on economic grounds, it was going to be
the sensible decision to go straight out to the Badgery Creek
site but the more I looked at it the more questions I asked.
The more I had the statistics and all the assumptions put up to
me, it was quite clear that the sensible economic decision was to
build the third runway and go out to Badgery's Creek at a slower
rate. Now, it would have been against the economic interest. of
the country as a whole if we hadn't made that decision. So, I
was persuaded on the economics of it. I know that on the
politics of it I take a risk, but some of the people like
yourself, Bill, are going to say, ' Well, the Labor Party had a
different position on this and we in the area think we're going
to be worse off', and that you won't like it. Now, I understand
that there was a political risk in taking that decision, but the
fact is, Bill, that it was the right economic decision, and I'm
not going to make decisions against the economic interests of
this country. if I get the ? acts and the statistics before me
that show that I need to change a position that I've had before,
then I'll change it, because I'm not going to court, you know,
political applause in some areas on the basis of going against
the economic interests of the country as a whole. I'm sorry.
You know, I'd like to be able to give you another answer. I
won' t.
MAUMILL: Is Gary Punch finished politically for bluing with you
over this?
PHt No. I wouldn't think so, and in fact, he's got a great
story to tell to his electorate. The statistics are very simple;
that when the third runway comes In the number of annual
movements over his electorate will decline from seventy-two
thousand to two thousand. Not a bad story.
MATJMILLs Yes. A cynic could say, of course, that Gary resigned
to get an election over with and then you'll reinstate him once
he wins, but he's got to be seen to be opposing you on it. Any
deal been done?
PM No deal.
MAUl4ILLs No deal. Righto. Just thought I'd ask. Good day,
Peter. CALLERt Hello.
MAUMILL: How you doing, Pete?
CALLER; How are you? Bob, please.
PM4 Yes, Peter.
CALLER: Good day. How are you, mate?
PM: Good, mate.
CALLER: I'm a Labor man. I've voted all my life, mate.
PM: Good on you.
CALLER: I think you're doing a great job.
PM: Thanks.
MAUMILL: Well, we don't need to talk to you anymore. Go away.
We want to get someone who will put him on the spot. Go away,
Peter. Call in again later. Let's try Pat. Hello, Pat, how are
you doing?
CALLER: Good thanks.
MAU! 4ILL: None of this backslapping stuff. Let's got heavy.
Will someone ring and get stuck into him? You know, the charisma
can't work on radio as well, surely. Yes. You there, Pat?
CALLER: Yes.
P14: Good day, Pat.
CALLER: Bob Hawke?
PM: Yes, mate.
CALLER: Now, I'm a member of the Five Dock Labor Party and we
passed a resolution at our last meeting asking you to refuse to
sign the Antarctic Agreement. It's got to be signed in the next
couple of months. Now, I heard Senator Richardson on one of the
TV shows one Sunday morning saying that we should sign. it's the
best thing we could do.
P14; Yes.
CALLERs Totally disagree with him, and I hope that the
Government will have the sense and the intelligence not to sign
it because we don't another King William Sound business where the
oil spillage up there....
PM: Sure.
CALLER: What that's done, we don't want that in the Antarctic.
PM: Yes. Pat, this issue's got to come up before the Cabinet.
The argument that
CALLER: Give it serious consideration that it will not be
signed. I think it's better if we don't.
PM: Well, Pat, we'll certainly be giving serious consideration
to the issue, but let me make this point in defence of
11
PM ( cant) t Richardson. I don't think there's anyone in
Australia really, who's more committed to environmental issues in
a constructive way than Graham Richardson. His argument is, and
we've got to, you know, consider this in Cabinet, but I
understand his argument to be that unless there is an actual
regime signed, then the capacity to have any control at all over
activity of this type is nonexistent. in other words, without
some sort of regime, which the various nations of the world have
signed, it's open slather, and anyone can go in and do what they
will. So, his argument is, it's best to have a regime and try
and get as tight and most effective regime as possible under an
agreement, because if you don't do that, then it is open slather.
Now, that's the essence of his argument, but these things will be
considered by Cabinet and the sort of considerations you have in
mind will be very much before us.
MAUMILLs Let's go to the top of the board. Morning, Margaret.
CALLERs Good morning, Bob.
PMs Good day, Margaret.
CALLER: The Prime Minister?
PM: Good day.
CALLER: Good morning, Prime Minister.
PM Good morning.
CALLER: Prime Minister, I've got a problem that I think many
listeners will be very interested in and that is if you could
explain to me in layman's language why it is possible for big
business to borrow money, millions overseas, at a very low rate,
and then claim tax deductions in Australia, at Australia's rate,
when young couples who have to borrow money to buy a home at high
Australian rates, they're not getting any tax deductions? X know
that you're going to say to me, inflation and all this.
PM: No. I ' m not going to say that. I'm going to give you the
answer which is this, Margaret, and that answer is that you see
these stories that are written about. You see a company, one of
the companies in a group that's paid little or no taxation; they
say, ' Isn't that terrible? They've paid no tax'.* What is not
understood and its been put out time after time after time, and
people either don't want to see it or don't want to understand
it. Companies can be in a situation where It's a member of a
group and they will have paid tax in another company and what
happens in the company that you're looking at, has paid no tax,
it is not the operating company. Tax'has already been paid on
what's passed into it but the other companies in the group have
paid the tax. Now, if you look at Just the one company and say,
' That one's paid no tax', you ignore the fact that where the
12. PM ( cont) 4 other company that the come f rom into that
company has paid it. You can't pay it twice, and if you look at
the group as a whole, they are paying a tax. For a simple fact,
Margaret, is that it's under this Government that f or the first
time, all the tax evasions and rorts that were characterised
under the previous regime have been stopped. I mean, let me put
it to you this way. The previous Government set up a Royal
Commuission; it was a Costigan Royal Comm ission, and our own Royal
Commission said in 1983. that the fastest growing industry in this
country was the tax avoidance industry. That was the outcome of
the previous mob who simply wouldn't make people and companies
pay who should pay. Now we've, by broadening a tax base,
tightening up laws, giving the Tax Commissioner, Mr Boucher, more
and more resources, actually putting auditors in the companies.
They go and sit in the major companies now and so from the inside
they see what's happening and they're getting hundreds of
millions of dollars out of companies in tax which was never
obtained before. You ask the business community of this country
which is the Government which has made them pay tax and they'll
tell you, it5the Hawke Government.
MAUMILL: You're making us pay tax. He's heavy as lead that
Boucher. He's got his team going through all the radio stations
at the moment.
PM: But you don't mind that, do you?
MAUMILL: No. I don't mind. No. I don't mind.
PMs Good on you.
MAUMILL: But he's very heavy. Do you think he's too high
profile? Boucher? Do you think he's sort of playing the role
PM: Not on your life.
MAUMILL: Paul Keating's storm troopers?
PM: No. Every Australian taxpayer, every one of your listeners
should have a picture up of him and praise him because it's
because
MAUMILLs ( Inaudible).
PM: Well, but you're a decent bloke. You'll do it. It's
because Boucher's going in and making those who've got the
capacity and the obligation to pay, because they are paying now.
That's enabled us to bring the rates down. When we came to
office, what was the top rate? It was sixty cents.
MAUMILL: Sixty. Yen.
PM: Sixty cents. It's now down to forty-nine and forty-seven in
January and the lowest rate was thirty and that's come down now.
13.
PM ( cont): we've reduced that by a third. Nowt the only way
we've been able to bring tax rates down is because we're making
those blightere pay who didn't pay before.
MAUMILL: The Secretary of the Federal Treasury, Bernie Fraser,
has admitted that Mr Keating's inflation forecast is off beam,
and he predicts 7.3% which is well above Mr Keating's inflation
figure of
PM: Look, there's one problem in what you're saying there. It's
not Mr Fraser saying
MAUXILLs Does this mean you got it wrong?
PM: it's not Mr Fraser saying that Mr Keating's figure is wrong.
It's the Treasury, headed by Mr Fraser, who provide the basic
information upon which the Budget's drawn up and Mr Fraser is
saying of himself. I meanI I'm not having a shot at Bernie.
Bernie's saying, ' We got it wrong'. Most economists had a belief
that you were going to have lover levels of activity af ter the
October ' 87 crash; the level was going to fall down. In fact,
here and around the rest of the world activity boomed, and so it
is right, the estimates that we made then were out. Now we've
got to make the decisions, Bob, to deal with that, and we have.
MAUMILL: Yes, but fifteen billion trade deficit he's talking
about. PM: Yes, and that's right.
MAUMILL: Can we afford that?
PM: Can't go on affording it, that's why we've got high interest
rates. That's why we're bringing down the level of activity.
You can't have it both ways. You can't complain about the high
level of interest rates and the high level of imports and the
current account deficit. The reason why we've got high interest
rates is to bring the level of activity down so as there won't be
so many imports sucked in.
MAUMILLt Yes, but Paul Keating's saying steady as she goes.
We've got to keep the hand on the tiller and remain resolute, but
it hasn't worked so far, has it?_
PM: On the contrary. It has worked.
MAUMILL: But he's got it wrong. He's got the figures wrong.
That's all we can use to go on, Prime Minister.
PM: But Treasury and the Government acting on those advice, like
Treasuries all around the world, got it wrong because every
economist around the world, every Treasury, every Government,
assumed after the October ' 87 crash that the, you know, the
14. PM ( cont) l economy was going to fall flat right around the
world. Now in fact, the level of activity stayed up very much
higher. We've got boom conditions around the world. so, we all
got it wrong in that sense. Now the -thing Is p the secret of
economic management has been to adjust to those changed
circumstances. That's what we're doing. Now, traditionally what
would have happened in Australia in those circumstances, that the
screws would have been turned on that tight that you would have
sent the economy into recession. That was a traditional
conservative way. We haven't done that. We've still got high
employment growth and what we're going to do it bring the level
of activity back, Bob, but not that far that we put it into
recession. MAtUMILLa You told my Mum during the West Australian election
when you were over there,-that interest rates would be down by
Christmas. Is that still going to happen?
PHI Yes. I was asked in January, Bob, did I think that
HAUMILLt It was Mum that yelled the question.
PM: Thanks, Mum. Thanks Mrs Maumill. You've got a lot to
answer for; the son and the question.
MAUMILL: Will they come down?
PM: I've got no reason to change the answer I gave. I1 didn't
raise it myself. Your mother, I didn't know, raised it. She
said, ' Will they be down before the end of the year?' The answer
is ' Yes'# and it's still yes.
MAUMILL: Yes? They'll cone down?
PM& They'll be down before the end of the year.
MAUMILLs All right. OK. Well, there you go. There's the
headline, boys. make sure it's well reported. Let's go back to
the phones. Let's get some sensible questions from our
listeners. why don't we go to line five, Paul; single Mum? Good
day, Robyn. How are you doing?
CALLER: Hi. I've got two questions actually. The first is, how
a single Mum can go on a pension, live in de f acto relationship
and have one, two, even three-children after she's been on the
pension from the beginning?
PM: Well, when you say, ' They're living in a do facto
relationship', we further tightened up the rules in this last
Statement we brought down to avoid a situation where people who
are supposed to be getting the benefit from an actual single
parent relationship are not, in fact, living in that situation.
So, my intention on the part of the Goverznent to allow that sort
PM ( cant): of scene. A single parent's benefit is for a single
parent not living in a de facto relationship and the practice of
the procedures in the Department will be tightened up even
further to ensure that that doesn't happen.
MAUMILLz Let's go to the top of the board. Good day* Bob. How
are you doing?
CALLERs Not too bad at all. Thanks, Bob.
MAUMILLs Go ahead. Ask you( question. Let's get on with it.
CALLER: OK. We've got Bob, Bob and Bob.
PM: Three Bobs.
MAUMILL: Yes. Three Bobs.
CALLER: Look, Bob, I'm an ex-RAN Vietnam veteran and for some
time we weren't recognised for our logistical Support of the
Vietnam War. Now you Government recognised four of the claims
which was basically that it was Now, I thank Senator
Arthur Geitzel and Kim Beazley for that, and yourself, of course.
Now, on the Welcome Home March you may not have noticed when you
were standing on the Sydney Town Hall steps, but we led the navy
contingent of the Welcome Home March and we had a really great
day, but none of us wore any recognition from Australia; that's
in the form of the Australian Vietnam Medal. Now
unfortunately, it would seem that Mr Beazley, and I'm only
reading between the lines here, seems to have come to a blank
wall with the Defence Service Chiefs, and on that basis, I've
tried very hard to talk to the Defence Service Chief involved but
they seem to turn a blind eye to me. I don't exist. Now, what
I'd like to ask you is could you grant this last request,
particularly with ANZAC Day coming up. It means a hell of a lot
to f our thousand servicemen. It's an Australian recognition.
We've got a Return From Active Service Badge, but where did we
return from?
PM: Yes. You're referring to the service, like the
merchant marine, and so on?
CALLER: No. This was the HMAS Sydney.
PM: It was the actual naval-
CALLER: Yes.
PM: The naval people who provided the services going up there
but who weren't in action there?
CALLER: That's right.
16. pm: Yes. Yes. I understand what you're talking about. Well
look, Bob, i would want to talk to Kim Beazley about the details
of this and I give you an undertaking that when I next see him I
will. I mean, I can't say that you'll get the answer you want
but the undertaking I do give you is that I'll talk to Beazley
about it.
MAUMIILt You'll raise the matter?
PM: Yes.
MAUMILL: Let's go down the board. Talk to Ann. Line fourteen.
Morning, Ann.
CALLER: Good morning.
PM: Good morning, Ann.
CALLER: Look, what I want to mostly bring up is that my husband
does wages. Like, he does it each week for employees and a
couple of weeks ago we were out shopping and I was a bit amazed,
as I get all the time, how the cost of living keeps going up and
I was wondering that perhaps when he told me what the actual
basic wage was, he said, ' About three fifteen', and I said,
' Goodness me. How do people live on that?', and he didn't
answer. He said, ' I don't know', but what I was wondering, do
you think it's possible for you to put the wage rise up before
July because I feel that people really, in some casesnot myself,
I'm not ringing for, and what about freezing prices because it
doesn't matter. Can that ever be done again? I know it was
tried to be brought in once becausej Mr Hawke the prices go up
whether the wages go up or not and they keep going up.
PM: well, let me go to the two parts of your question, Ann. In
regard to the people on the lowest level of wages, part of the
arrangement that we've made in the negotiations with the ACTU;
those people at the lowest level are going to benefit in these
ways. Firstly, they are going to get an increase in what's
called their supplementary payments and that will give a
substantial increase at the wages level. The second way in which
they'll be assisted is that where they have kids there are going
to be substantial increases in the Family Allowances and the
Family Allowance Supplement which, if you take the case of a
bloke with a wife and three kids at that low level of income, it
will be equivalent to a wage in crease of over a hundred dollars a
week; what we've done in terms of poingthem with Family
Allowance Supplements for their children, and thirdly, of course,
at the low level of income they pay no tax A bloke on twenty
thousand dollars a year with wife and three kids will in effect
pay no net tax because what he paid in tax is more than offset by
the allowances they get that I've mentioned. So, in these ways
we're conscience, and so is the trade union movement, of the need
of those lower income people and they'll be helped in those
particular ways. Now, to the other part of your question, Anne,
17. PM ( cont): about price control. You can't have price control in
peace time. We haven't got the constitutional power under the
Commonwealth to do it. None of the States want to exercise it.
What we've really got is the next best thing with the Prices
Surveillance Authority which watches particular areas where there
is an opportunity for business to take advantage of semimonopolistic
positions. We watch that and report on it and try
by the pressure of public opinion in that way to stop unnecessary
increases, but we haven't got under the Constitution, Ann, the
power to impose price control.
MAUMILL: i ig story in New South Wales this morning is three
cents a litre on petrol. You take about $ 1.5b in petrol taxes
out . of New South Wales and give about three hundred and fiftyfoiR~
ack a year. There seems to be a disproportionate amount of
money channelled by Treasury into other areas, and roads in New
South Wales, as everyone knows, are really crook and neglected.
The State Government blames you and says you don't give us enough
money back. They've now bunged on the three cent impost. Who'sa
fault is it and will you give them a belt around the ears at the
Premier' s Conference?
PM: There'll be a few words about this at the Premier's
Conference, I can assure youi. Now, on the question of roads,
there has been a significant real increase in expenditure on
roads under this Government. We've completed the Around
Australia National Highway and there's been a very, very
significant Increase in expenditure in real terms and under the
arrangements we've got you'll see that there'll be a further real
increase in funding for roads in the next financial year. So,
that's, you know, the reality. Now, as far as Mr Greiner' s
concerned, he refuses to accept the need for a level of restraint
in activity. The whole point of the exercise that we're about,
Bob, in running the economy is that we've got to bring the level
of activity back somewhat. We were talking about it before.
otherwise, you're just going to have, as I say, a significant
increase in imports, but Mr Greiner seems intent on not
exercising the sort of discipline here that we in the
Commonwealth and other States are going to do, and this slug on
motorists here.... three cent slug on motorists isn't justified,
and it is a matter that will be taken into account in our
discussions at the Premier's Conference.
MAUMILL: But he's saying its the only way we'll get better
roads. You won't give us enough money.
PM: But we have given a significant real increase in funding.
There'll be a further real increase in funding in the year ahead.
So, it's not as though we're not increasing the outlay on roads.
If you want to, you could go on building more and more and more
and more roads; more and more bridges. You could build more and
more schools. You could do more of everything, but in the
process, of course, you'd ruin the country. You just can't keep
18. Pm ( cont): ion spending. If you do keep on spending that way,
you're talking about the current accounts, imports will just go
through the roof the economy comes to a , and I think you're
sensible enough to know you just can't keep on spending on
everything you went to.
MAUXILL; Yes, but try telling that to people who are jammed in
pot holes on Windsor Road trying to get work and they know that
they are getting back only a very, very small proportion of what
they're handing over to the Commonwealth.
PM It's not handing over to the Commonwealth. It's not going
into my pocket, or Keating's pocket. It's being used to do a
whole range of things. They want schools as well. They want
soci al welfare. They want pensions. Historically, motor fuel
has been one of the areas which has provided income to successive
governments, not just for roads. it's not just with what you
raise by way of coming off fuel is just going to roads. it's one
of the sources of revenue which governments use to build schools,
bridges, roads.
MAUMILL: Yes. It seems to me though, like an extra taxation.
PM: Mr Greiner's?
MAUMILL: No, because you're a motorist, we get into your pay
packet and we'll get you through the petrol bowser a. well.
You're saying that consolidated -revenue gains from the petrol
pump and doesn't necessarily give all of that, doesn't give all
of that money
PM I'm saying the motorist is not just a motorist. You don't
live your life sitting in your motor car. You get out of your
motor car. You have kids. You send them to school. You want
defence. You want pensions for your mothers and fathers who are
out of the work force.
MAUMILL: Yes, but non-motoristo don't pay it.
PM: OK. Well, then to the extent that non-motorists don't pay
it, so what? I mean, non-motorists are taxed as well, but
traditionally excise on motor fuel is a source of revenue for
governments for matters not only to do with roads. I mean, does
it follow from that, that when-you go and have a drink and you
pay your tax on it, I mean, you still do have the occasional one,
do you?
MAUMILL: A sip of very good red West Australian wine.
PM Good on you.
MAUMILL: Keep away from the other stuff.
19.
PKI Yes. I see. well, doe. it follow that we governments get
revenue from you as a drinker that we should only spend the
revenue we get from that, what on the hospitals where we're
treating cirrhosis of the liver? You say that that's true?
MAUMILL: No.
P14* Well then, what's the argument that says that in respect
. what you pay as a motorist should only go on roads?
MAUMILL: Yes, but I can make a decision about whether or not I
drink or not, but I can't make a decision whether or not I should
come to work. I've got to get in my car to come to work.
There's no public transport. I've got to get in the car to drive
to work.
PM:. That's right.-
MAUMILL: If I don't want to have drink, I don't have a drink, I
don't pay the tax if I don't like it. But I have got no option
but to travel to get to work to make a living. Now, what you're
really saying is that you get me out of my PAYE pay packet, I pay
as I earn, and because I'm a motorist, to get more money for
consolidated revenue, you get me at the petrol pump as well.
PHI it's not a question of getting you. It's a question of
saying that Bob Maumill, you are as well as being a motorist you
are many other things. You've got kids, you've got parents, you
want us to provide pensions, you want us to provide schools for
your kids. Now, how do we get the money in terms of all these
things other than by a collection of revenue? The important
thing to note that as far as this Government is concerned, what
we have been doing is to keep the revenue that we get as a
constant portion. It hasn't gone up. with all these increased
demands, including increased expenditure on roads which we have
undertaken, infinitely more money on education, infinitely more
money on pensions and so on, we still, our tax take, the
Commonwealth tax take has remained a constant in all the period
we have been in Government.
0MAUMILL: Robyn's on line six. She wants to talk to you and I
promised that she'd get on.
PM: Good on you.
MAUMILLt Let's go down the board. Where is she? Is she still
there? No. She has gone, but Margo is there. Morning, Margo.
CALLER: Hello.
MAUMILL:. How are you Margo?
CALLER: Good morning, Prime Minister
PM: Good day, Margo. How are you?
CALLERs Good, thank you. I believe that everything in Japan
costs much more than here. I'm was told that, for instance, it
costs one thousand, five hundred for three people to have dinner
in a restaurant. Well, that's a thousand per cent more than
here. How high are our interest rates going to go with this
highly inflated money coming into the country and if they keep
buying up Australian businesses and land and everything, we won't
have to worry about trade. They'll own it all. We won't have
anything left to trade.
MAUMILLs Well, that's a statement; not a question. Good on you,
Margo. PMs Margo, I'm not quite -sure I see the connection between how
high costs of living are in Japan and the rest of your question,
but I Just go back to this point. If you want a Government and a
PM that's going to be anti-Japanese, you've got the wrong bloke.
I'm not going to be anti-Japanese, and I'll tell you why I'm
not, because the future velfare of your kids and their kids
depends upon this country having sensible, constructive
relationships with this region. The Asian-Pacific rim of
which we are part, is the fastest growing part of the world's
economy. By well before the end of this century they'll be
producing more than half of everything that is produced in the
world. They will be the biggest entity in world trading and if
Australia adopts this, and I'll be quite direct with you, this
quite stupid and self-defeating attitude of being anti-Japanese,
anti-Asian, then what you are doing as sure as I'm sitting here
next to this slim fellow Maumill, is that you'll be condemning
your kids and their kids to a worse future. The very worst thing
that can be done to Australia's future is to have this anti-
Japanese, anti-Asian attitude because they are growing at an
enormous rate; all this region, the Japanese and the other
countries of this region, they are growing faster than anyone
else in the world, and the future of this country depends upon
having a sensible, constructive trading relationship with them.
If we say to them, ' We don't like you. we don't like the look of
you. we don't like your money. We don't want your investment.'
Then very simply and properly the Japanese and these other
countries will say to us, ' All right, get nicked, Australia', and
they will nick us, and you'll sit back with your children and
you'll say, ' Marvellous. We've been tough and Rambo. we've told
the Japanese we don't like them'-, but what the Japanese and the
rest of these countries will do is say, ' Bye bye, Australia'.
Now, you might want to do that Margo, but I'm telling you, I'm
not going to do it, because I want a country where my kids and my
grandchildren and yours and their grandchildren are going to have
the opportunity of getting all the economic benefits of trading
with the fastest growing part of the world.
MAUMILL: Prime Minister. I'm a Barry Jones fan. I like the way
he conducts himself publicly. Whenever I talk to him on air he's
21.
a verys very easy, f orthcoming bloke. Goes on a bit. You know
what Barry is like; a bit wordy,, but I was
PM: Like a radio bloke.
MAUMILL: Yes. I was a bit distressed to 586 that there was some
friction in Cabinet and that Barry was going to pull the pin. You
had to prevail upon him to stay. what's the basis of it? What
was the blue about?
PM: There's no problem. Barry is very, very intent on ensuring
that there is a f air go f or science in this country. That they
get a good amount of funding and new f unding. He was a bit
worried that they weren't going to get as much as they needed to
help develop science in this country but I had a talk to him, a
very friendly one and there was no suggestion that he was pulling
the plug. He's, still there and will be.
MAUMILL: ( Inaudible). Was there some blue between him and John
Button? PM No. No. No. There's different emphasis between them and
couple of others as to whether this amount of money should go
there and that amount of money should go there but it's good
healthy discussion. He's still there and will be.
MAUMILL: Final call. It's on dual nationalities. It's one that
comes up on this talkback programme all the time. Kevin's down
there on line seventeen. Morning, Kev.
CALLER: -Hello, Bob.
PM How are you, mate?
MAUMILL: How are you down, Key? Make it quick, Kevin, will you?
CALLER: Yes. Listen, I'd like to know is there anyway that
through Parliament that any dual nationalities are not allowed
to hold power such as.... or anything else in Parliament?
PM: Such as what?
CALLER: Such an in Parliament. Like, in here in New South Wales
we've got a Greiner who's Just raping -New South Wales something
terrible and he wasn't even born here and with it he's selling
off all of our heritage.
PM: Well, Kevin, as for as I know, Mr Greiner only has his
Australian nationality. It's not dual nationality and I just
want to simply say to you and be as tough as I was in the answer
to the previous questioner. If you've got a view that you're
against anyone that was born in this country, you're talking to
the wrong bloke, mate. You want to talk to someone else, because
as far as I'm concerned immigration has been the thing which has
22. PM ( cont): enriched this country. At the end of the last War we
were seven million people. Now we're sixteen and half Million
people. We've got people in this country that have come from one
hundred and thirty odd different homelands. As of this very day
that I'm talking to you, Kevin, almost forty percent, about
thirty-nine percent of every person in this country today warn
either born in another country or 18 the child of a parent born
in another country. If you think you can turn the clock back to
have an Australia that consists only of people born in Australia
then you want to do the worst possible thing to this country.
You're talking to the wrong blokes mate. If you want that sort
of thing, go and talk to some Conservatives.
MAUXILL: Prime Minister, you look healthy, you look fit, you
look active. I've never seen you work better. Does that mean
you're going to go on indefinitely?
PM: Well, I'm putting myself up next time for another term and I
feel right. You're absolutely right. Never felt better.
MAUMILL: Have you given Hazel a committment that you'll retire
by a certain time?
PM: No.
MAUMILL: Has it ever been discussed between the two of you?
PM: No. We just want to feel sure that we're both fit and well
and able to keep going. I'll keep going while I feel that I'm at
my peak and that's where I feel at the moment.
MAUMILLs But are there any other horizons that you'd like to
conquer? I mean, everything you've set out to do? I spoke to
you on a plane one time. I interviewed you when you were Chief
of the ACTU. We talked at some length. You said, ' One day I
want to be Prime Minister of Australia. I want to go into
Federal Parliament and one day I hope to be Prime Minister'.
You've done that. You went into Federal Parliament. You became
Prime Minister. Is that the end of the Hawke agenda?
PMt No. No. There's a life after politics, mate. Life after
politics. MAUMILL: Well, after politics, what role do you see yourself in?
What do you do with a Prime Minister? Look at Malcolm, he's
walking around looking for a job-.
PM: Yes, and I'm trying to help him get one.
MAUMILL: You're trying to help him get one. I know you are.
PM: How's that? That's not bad, is it?
23.
MAUMILL: Can't be fairer than that.
PMe Can't be fairer than that.
)( AUMILL# You've always been for full employmento even for ex-
Prime Ministers. What would you do? what would Bob Hawke, ex-
Prime Minister of Australia do?
PM: Well, I've said one of the things I want to do is I'd
love to do a television series which would involve a lot of work
interviewing people who I've had the great privilege of meeting
who I think have made an impact upon the world and have changed
events in a very significant way. I've learnt a lot from meeting
these people. I mean, I've had my imagination and horizons
widened by getting to know them and I would like to share with
millions of other people in this country and around the world, my
knowledge of these people through really reasonably lengthy
interviews with them. So, that's something I'd very much like to
do, and then well, I'd also like to spend a lot of time with my
six grandchildren. Just got the sixth the other day, and I'Id
like to see more of my country and I'd like to see of the world.
KAUMILL: Has your vision for Australia been distorted at all by
the behaviour of Australians during the immigration debate? Are
they the good people, the good blokes, if you like, and this goes
for men and women, using your own words, are they the good blokes
you always thought they were, or do you scratch an Australian and
you find a racist?
PM: No. It's not fair to say, ' Scratch an Australian and you
find a racist'I. There's no doubt there is racism in this
country, and that hurts and disturbs me. The thing that hurts me
is that people are so unintelligent that they can be racist. I
mean, you can't determine, I can't determine, what I was born. I
could have been born black. I could have been born Jewish. I
could have', Iorn anything. I happen to be born a white
Australian. OK. That's what I'm born. It is an obscenity to
have a prejudice against a person because they were born
different to you. That person who is black or Jewish or
Japanese; that's what they were born and they've got the same
mixture of emotions, aspirations, hopes, fears, strengths,
weaknesses, as you and I have. I mean, where I particularly find
it galling as I've said is where so-called Christians, you knov,
they call themselves Christians, have this prejudice, because I
go back to what my father said to me. He said, ' If you believe
in the Fatherhood of God', he-said, ' there's a corollary.....
The Fatherhood of God means the brotherhood of man'. You've got
the same Father, you're brothers, and that's right. I mean, I
don't practice that.... now but that's a truth, I think, which
just seems to me to be overwhelming and I just find it so
repulsive and unintelligent that you have a prejudice against a
person. You could have born an Aborigine. You could have been
born anything. You happen to be born what you are. Now, you
should regard every human being, in my judgment, as a fellow
24.
PM ( cont) h uman being. Not lesser, not greater.
MAUbiILLs What sort of a job's Bill Hayden doing as Governor
General? Are you happy with it?
PKI Yes. I thought he'd be a good Governor-General, and he's
doing it well. I get good reports. I expected him to do well.
MAUMILL: Got any advice for the Libs who are self -destructing in
Victoria, apart from keep on doing it?
Pm: I No. No. I just go on with my colleagues governing the
country and we'll leave them to themselves apart. There's a
truth in politics which we learnt in the Labor Party, and that
is, if you can't govern yourself, the people won't call on you to
govern them.
MAUMILL: Thanks for joining us today, Prime Minister. You do
have other appointmuents now to attend. I appreciate the fact
that you've joined us today anid we look forward to talking to you
again in a talkback context very soon here on 2KY. Thanks for
being PM: It's been great being with you again, mate.
KAUMILL: Good on you, mate. Good to see you again.
end.