PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW, PH-ILLIP ADAMS, 2UE, 3 April 1987
E 0 E PROOF ONLY
ADAMS: Good morning, Prime Minister.
PM: Good morning Phillip.
ADAMS: 1 must say 1 thought your April Fool's Day performance
was wonderful letting the Libs and the National Party off
the election. It was a remarkably compassionate Bob Hawke.
PM: That's my nature, you know that.
ADMAS.: Were you tempted really to run early or was it just
teasing them?
PM: No, I was tempted, buL as you know I have a long history
of resisting temptation Phillip. It's our training in the
manse. ADAMS: That's right, it's our Congregational. background.
But you're different to me, I have always yeildod
PM: You succumbed, I didn't.
ADAMS: Yes, I've always rolled over anid said " Let it happen".
Prime Minister, we've got a Foster's VFL, Foster's Mclbourne
Cup and it now seems just when John Howard thought it was
safe to go back Into the party room we're going to have a
Fosters'. Liberal Party with John Elliott. WhaL's your attitude
to this?
PM: I don't know if ever one had any doubt about there
being a God this would remove it. if hie comes and throws
his hat In the ring. The only thing one can say about it
it is the only thing * in the world that would unite Howard
and Peacock. The only thing they agree on let's keep out
John Elliott. TIhey have both started to recognise the brilliant
capacities of the existing Member for Higgins and they arc
going around, John Howard and Mr Peacock, saying what a brilliant
man this Shipton is. We have never heard much before but
he is suddenly something extra.
ADAMS: Yes. He hasn't been one of the great stars of front
or back bench, has he?
PM: No, he has not but as I say, two contending current
fellows there in the Party now Lhink he is marvellous becaue
because they don't want Mr Elliott there. But I think it
would be good Lo have him there, don't you?
Wall, ! L vv'juli L6 bi of a laugh, wo.~ uldn't it?
You and the world's best dressed Treasurer have bitten a
lot of bullets in the last few years, you have made a lot
of the hard economic decisions, things that no conservative
government would have been game to do, and yet the business
community aren't being all that nice to you. Does that make-
PM: I think the large business community is very supportive
of this Government. Thai doesn't mean they agree with every
decision we have made. of course they don't. But all
indications we are getting is that the large business sector
in supporiv of Lhi:: CuvwuisviL. IL le,. & oms of the smaller
business people making some noises.
ADAMS: I remember you and I discussing the
pheixometin ttbu a year ago and you weren't that worried
about. ARe you still unconcerned about this small business
aggro that is going on?
PM: We are unconcerned in the sense, Phillip, that when
the election comes the majority of them will be supporting
US. There won't be any altruism or change of ideals, but
rather the old nag self-interest will'be running
ADAMS: Yee,. he wav in on&-of John Tnpn'n tipm this mnrnina.
the old nag self-interest.
PM: well, as the saying goes, it is always trying. Phillip.
We had a report out of Washington this morning that the outgoing
SvvreLariy 01-tte--Navy--is talidAnq -about-thu US-mov. 4 g
its Antarctic base to Hobart. Has that hit your in tray
yet? PM N~ o, it hasn't hit my in tray. There has been speculation
about it. This is Lehmisnn, you are talking about, he has
been making that noise for some time. But there is no proposal
before us, Phillip.
ADAMS: Would it come to you or to Robin Gray?
PM: Robin Gray is already on the record. He has said he
wants Lnem. tio. Lne decisioii INi UiU rUL Lliv Ttwltiii u~ j~ mab
ADA~ MS have. got-. toL. ask..-yz1.. svnOlw toxxgb.. g-t-Jjons now because
othorwioo Alan Jonee gets cr~ nky with me An~ d 1 aim tL'rm4fin.
oif 111111. Aste yuu uvasfidwz& L cifL y%-zt y1., io1 niow
conference that the new two tier wages system will hold?
PM: Yes. Again It Is a matter of the combination of good
things and self-interest because certainly the leadership
of the ACTU knows and they dre very good communicators to
their affiliates. They know that Lhe. alternative to making
this system would be chaos. You would have the temporary
phenomenon, perhaps. of nnmp l~ rgpr w~ ge mnvrem. nts by unions
using their strength but would just destroy the economy and
jobs. Yes, it will hold.
ADAMS: You sound a bit croaky?
PM; No, I am not croaky. Some of my muesli is caught in
my throat but I will negotinto it alright Phillip.
ADAMS: The miners union have decided not to support the
system. Could tL pose problems in our relations with the
Japanese coal buyers?
PM: If they were allowed to get away with it. But the coal
miners will. I think, realise that they can't live as an
isolated little organism in the total trade union movement.
The rest of the trade union movement won't support them.
And as Bill Kelty sald yesterday, ana i couldn't agree with
him more " my heart doesn't bleed for people of $ 800 a week"
and wanting to get more at a time when restraint is what
is required. will act against their own self-interest
and against their own kids self-interest If they carry on
like that.
ADAMS: Prime Minister, earlier in the week it was reported
LhaL Lih Pinance Minister, Vetr Walsh, woo ouggeoting that
the Lax-free tUreshuld be iseuvud for second income earners
which of course means workinq married women. Do you think
this is an equitable way of going about getting more taxes.
why should married women be penalised for working especially
when they've already had to pay large sums of money, which
isn't deductible, for child ui.-u?
PM: I am sorry, Phtilip, but I am not getting inco any
discussions about proposals or any considerations that might
be before the Expondituro Roviow Committon. What you have
got to understand is that in this process bits of paper come
across the desks of Ministers for consideratlut. It duu= n'L
mean that every one of those bits of paper is going to be
acted upon.
ADAMS: Just like those Liberal Party documents that fall
of the back of trucks?
PM: It Is soemthing like that with the difference being
that we do go about Lhe processes of sorting out what has
to be done and doing. If you are going to face the situation
that this country has got where you have this massive loss
of national Income which averages about $ 1500 per family
we have had wiped off uu" mnuLiuital vuoniomic capacity, then
you have just got to looK at the wnole range expenuizure
outlays on the revenue side to make the adjustments that
I I I 1 II I i ili stdbh
that loss of income and get the economy set to move into
the future. Nothing should be regarded as sacrosanct but
if you take the view that everything as it Is now must be
retained then you are just shutting your eyes to the fact
that $ 6bn has been wiped off. You can't wave a magic
wand and say " of course it didn't happen, it is just a
statistician's trick". That is nonsense. We will leave
that sort of vuodoo economics to the other side of politics.
We are going to face up to the job that has got to be done.
ADAMS: I would make the observation that such a proposal
might be at odds with your commitment to affirmative action.
Have you considered looking at some kind of general wealth
tax, Prime Minister?
PM: One of the signif icant things we have done~ In that area
is to Impose a capital gains Lax. That Is the most significant
thing that has been done in this country in the area of ensuring
that wealth accumulation which had previously been untaxed
is now going to pay a contribution to the general revenue.
ADAMS: The Australia Card's fate in the Senate. We heard
a rumour the other day that, in fact, John Howard arid the
boys had been considering something very like the Australia
Card? PM: Vos, It is a sort of cock crowed thrice thing. There
were throe separate occasions during the Fraser/ Howard years
And interestingly. the first one after Howard became Treasurer,
fho first investigation. I think, was in ' 78 and then there
were two other occasions when they investigated It. Of course,
this is consistent with John Howard and Vaider. the President
of the Party. You ought to play it sometime, to your listeners,
the Valder tape. Do you remember it?
ADAMS: Are they as good as the Age Tapes, the Valder Tupes?
PM: The language is somewhat more elegant.
ADAM~ S: Isn't it funny the way the Liberals speak in asterisks
Prime Minister?
PM: it is sort of asterisk tand it Is exulamation marks,
isn't It?
ADAMS: You have never dane that, have you?
PM: No, no.
ADAMS: You call a spade a spade?
PM.. I call a spade a spade.
ADAMS: You don't mince asterisks?
PM: I don't not at all, exclamation marks and all that
sort of thing.
You really ought to play that Valder tape sometime. This
is relevant to what you saying about the Australia Card because
mr Valder made that famous tape which he didn't think was
going to be distributed.
ADAMS: That was the orie for Westpao?
PM: Yes, you ought to get it becauso, essentially, waht
what the President of the Liberal Party said was this " you
have got to have these cuts in the welfare area, you hiuve
got to have this expenditure savings" and he praised the
Government and Mr Keating for what they were doing in the
fringe benefits area. He said that is a disease. And the
Assets Test. All these things. And then he said " isn't
it good, the Labor Party are doing it and we are Protesting
our opposition to it, they will bring thern in and get whacked
behind the ear electorally and then we, the Liberals, will
come in and leave thorn there!~ That Is the Federal President
of the Liberal Party saying that is our philosophy. We believe
PM cont: in these things and we will protest our opposition.
Let the Labor Party do them, keep them there. That is really
John Howard. John Howard believes in the capital gains tax,
he believes in an Assets Test, he believes in the Australia
Card, but he has just become the supreme opportunist of
Australian politics. And that is why I said on the Sunday
program the other day it is not just that the Liberal Party
doens't like him or that the Australian electorate doesn't
like him, in the end the most destructive thing for a person
is thaL you don't like yourself. And that is John Howard's
problem because he knows that what we are doing is right
and he is going through all this nonsense of arguing against
it Publ icly.
ADAMS: Ilie is still a very beleagured man and it looks like
Andrew might have shot his bolt for a while. I was talking
to Laurie Oakes the other day about the possibility of a
third man. It often happens in a time like this. Is therea
possible third Mdri on the front
PM: I must be careful about talking abuut a third man becaues
I referred to s~ ome suggestions that were going around Canberra
and I received a letter from Mr Brown. And IL was interesting,
which will tickle your fancy, the letter the first draft,
of the letter that came from his solitictors. demanded
from me, this is on behalf of Mr Brown, demanded from me
a " Pubic apology". Do you like that?
ADAMS: It is wonderful. I was going to ask you for a joke
later but I have got one already.
PM: That is the Joke for the day. We are neitLher giving
a pubic or any other sort of apology.
ADAMS: I sincerely hope not. That would need some asterisks.
We couldn't have that. Robert Sparkes, the Machiavellian
Sir Robert, has said that the threat of the early electioni
has been removed and now the Queensland National will withdraw
from what is left of the Coalition. if things get much, much
worse for the Coalition, might you be tempted as ani old
Congregationalist to go for an early election again?
PM: No, Phillip.
ADAMS; That is a very short answer?
PM: Yes. It is short, to the point, accurate.
ADAMS: What did the Party polls have to say about our chances
listen to me being partisan against the opposition?
PM; We would have won. And there are a number of factors
in thaL that are somewhat complicated. There wus the analysis
of the Joh Factor and what would happen to that. And the
trend where we are on a steadily rising trend. There is
no doubt, taking a combination of our polls and the others,
that we would have won. But we will win better next year.
this year and next year, probably next year, I guess.
ADAMS: Before the South Australian election, I think it
was, you were very critical. of the Liberal Party for its
privatisation policies. In fact, you had a lot of fun with
thorn. Now it looks as if you and Paul Keating have stolen
some of the Liberals thunder in that area?
PM: No, there are still some fundamental difrerences betwoen
us, Phillip. You take things like Telecom, Australia Post
there arc fundamental reasons, public interest reasons,
why these enterprises shouLd remain in public hands.
ADAMS: Bob, what is so different about selling off things
like airports, the Pipeline Authority?
PM: Airport terminals it is absolutely absurd to suggest
there is any social democratic, ideological reason why we
should run airports, concessions at airports. That is crazy.
There is no public interest involvement in that but there
is a great public interest involvement In the question of
owning Telecom because people in non-metropolitan Australia,
whose needs are very obvious, are able to got services which
a purely profit -oriented Telecom woqld not provide.
ADAMS: So you are not doing a Menzies arid stcallng the
Opposition's policies?
PM: I don't mind being pragmatic. I think I have shown
that in four years. If I believe some existing sort shibboleth
ADAMS: Say that again shibboloth.
PM: I like that word, it is our mutual manse background.
It is there, my son, it is there, we can't help it. So If
the shibboleth is a thing of by-gone days, not something
before which should prostrate ourselves in terms of current
requirements then you don't. I am severely practical when
it comes to protecting the interests of the people of this
country. I am not going to bow before some idol of the past.
That is silly. What I say is something that is now an issue
do we have to do that to protect the interests of the people.
I take Telecom. Quite clearly, the interests of the people
of Australia demand, In my judgement, that that should remain
in the public ownership. But I cannot, for the life of me,
see how the interests of the people of Australia demand that
they, the people of Australia, should, through their government,
own and run airport terminals.
ADAMS: Some time ago we decided that the J-curve stood for
Joke and we wanted to have ajoke-led recovery. The last.
joke I heard from the Prime Minister's own personal lips
was marvellous. What is the difference between a squashed
possum and a dead Politician on the Hlume Highway? And I
didn't know. And he said the difference was there skid marks
before the possum. Now f am sure we are get an even better
joke out of him now so here goes with a big fanfare.
PM: I have no notice about this. 1 haven't got a current
Joke that is tellable. But I will tell you a thing which
will appeal to Your literary background, Phillip. You would
remember Richard Brindsley Sheridan.
ADAMS: Knew him well, he was in my branch.
PM: In your branch. You know1( as a playwright, of course,
don't you?
ADAMS: Yes.
PM: Of course, he was really, in his time, better
known as a politician. H-e was Whig politician. He was one
of these politicians of those, times who didn't seem to be
absolutely bound by the party Whip arid lie used to criticise
his own party. And they brought in this piece of legislation.
And by the way, ho was recognised as one of the greatest
orators not only of his day but, arguably, some have put
him as the greatest oraLor ever in the House of Commons.
And so his party brought in this legislation arid lie didn't like
it. And his comments on it worte very, very critical and
included this memorable phrase. It I. s not a joke, I just
think it is a great phrase. Hie said " It have often heard
of people banging their head against a brick wall, this must
surely be the first time in the whole of history wheni they
have expressly erected a wall for that purpose"
ADAMS: It got a big response Bob.
PM: I just wanted to add to it and say well the twist of
it is with the Liberals and the National Party and the Democrats
voting against the Australia Card bill, this must be the
first time a party and a group of politicians have, by their
action in rejecting a piece of legislation, created a wall
for banging their heads against because I can assure between
now and the day the election is held I will be banging their
heads against that wall because the Australia Card legislation
is the most certain way of beating the Lax cheats and the
welfare frauds. And, by their action. they have made themselves
the protectors of the tax cheats and the welfare frauds.
ADAMS: They have been warned.
PM; They have been warned.
ADAMS: Thank you Prime Minister, it was great to talk to
you. PM: It was great to talk with you, my friend. All the best.
ADAMS: Thanks Bob.
ENDS