E. O. E. -PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW ON CARLETON-WALSH REPORT, 12 SEPTEMBER 1985
WALSH: Prime Minister, the media and the commentators have
hailed the election of Mr Howard as marking a new ez a matter of
substance and not just the cosmetics in the Libei. Party. Do
you see it that way? 7
PM: Well, I think it is the start of a new era, but I wouldn't
be hailing it, if I were the Liberals. We have now had the
opportunity for a few days of seeing Mr Howard in action. And
I don't wish to be churlish about this, but I probably have a
better view of the Opposition benches than anyone else, and I
would say the only happy face I have seen over there this week
is a bloke called Andrew Sharpe Peacock.
WALSH: But do you think over the next two years in the run-up
to the next election, that Mr Howard will have a different
agenda altogether than that from which Mr Peacock would have had?
PM: It can't be altogether different. They are a very malleable
group of people masquerading as a party, but there will be
differences of emphasis. But the big question, Max, is how far
will Mr Howard be able to in fact enunciate the policies in which
he believes or in which he alleges he believes. Because you will
recall that I spoke with you earlier this year, and with a number
of others, and I said it fascinates me that the media concentrates
upon the so-called divisions and ideological splits in the Labor
Party. And you remember, I said to you that the splits the
ideological factions and groupings in the Liberal Party are much
more profound than they are in the Labor Party. And I am not
being flippant about this. I think it is totally relevant to your
question. It is by no means certain what policies Mr Howaard is
going to be able to enunciate. He has certainly shown in one
week a great degree of instant flexibility on positions, vide
nuclear testing in the South Pacific, vide South Africa. In the
area of privatisation he has an enormous range of opposition
within his party to that, and not only within his own party,
but gradually the National Party and its leader are going to
summon up something equivalent to courage and come out and say
they don't agree with Mr Howard. So it is not possible, Max,
on the evidence that is available on the performance to this
point and on an analysis of the deep divisions within the
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wh-_ oi-1ciezs h-cicJ : xc: Lo ru~ n
WALSH: Let me just turn t o your policies and the one to
the fore at the moment is the question of interest rates.
PM: Yes, it is up front.
WALSH: If I could put it this way that it seems-to me from
the statements that were in the Budget and from what you have
said and the Reserve Bank has said, that the Government's
policy and its advisers' policy is at this stage to run a firm
monetary policy which means, in other words, keeping interest
rates high, to support the dollar until the beneficial effects
of depreciation start to bite. That is until the balance of
payments figures start to look healthy. Would you agree with
that as a broad brush approach?
PM: I think that is a not unfair broad analysis. And you
rightly put your finger, Max, upon the relationship between the
exchange rate and interest rates. And we have had from the
early part of this year to maintain, as you have said, a firm
monetary policy because of our wish to sustain the dollar. Now,
I believe that the beneficial effects of the devaluation are
already starting to show. You will remember that in today's
financial press there is a reference to the Victorian analysis
of the way in which manufacturing industry there is starting to
show the benefits of it. And may I just anecdotally put to you,
Max, that a range of businessmen in manufacturing industry have
asserted to me that they see very very favourable prospects now
for going into markets that they couldn't previously contemplate.
So I think your analysis, in broad terms, is right that we are
going to see the beneficial effects of the devaluation. That
will impinge upon our current account position. As that occurs
it would be my assessment that the itlimate for favourable
movements in interest rates will improve. I mean, we have done
all the things that we should do in fiscal terms our Budget
bringing down the deficit to beneath 5 billion, our arrangement
with the States to contain their global li mits, all the things
that Government can do to create the right environment in the
market has been done. So I think your analysis is a fair one
and I'm not in the business in these volatile circumstances of
wanting to make dogmatic assertions. But I think it is fair to
say with you that the environment, the general macro-environment
should be such as to create legitimate grounds for hoping that
the moves would be in the right direction.
WALSH: Let me turn to industrial relations. And Mr Howard has
identified Mudginberri as being a milestone in Australia's
industrial relations.
PM: Yes.
WALSH: Well it is in one respect because I don't think we
have seen Section 45D used in quite the fashion it has bc-en
us:. d on this occz-ion. In th rIc~ ~~ J~ l. you
lcgjislation to try and aJSct) 1;__.. D rcm, thc
Practices Act. Given the fact you have got a new Senate, will
you be re-introducing this legislation? / 3
PM: Well, on the evidence of the last time, it is all very
well saying a new Senate, but the numbers are no different
in any substance. Can I just make this point generally about
Mudginberri. I said in the House today that you really have
to put the question of Mudginberri in perspecti* VE. I add
that I have said in respect of Mudginberri that I. don't believe
that any of the parties to the dispute emerged with total credit.
But I think what I said in the House today should be said to
your viewers in response to your question. What the Opposition
are looking at is a sea of industrial tranquillity, the lowest
level of industrial disputation for seventeen years. This
hasn't happened by accident. It has happened because this
Government has adopted a policy of constructive co-operation
with the trade union movement and with the business community.
And that has brought this historically low level of industrial
disputes. Now what these people who are so bereft of
constructive economic policies are doing, is looking out, as I
said, over this sea of tranquillity and putting this miserable
confrontationist prism in their eye and say, look, let's where
can we find a dispute. So they found Mudginberri. Now it's not
a pleasant dispute. And that I acknowledge. And that's why
Mr Willis and myself for some period of time have been trying to
get it where it should be in the Arbitration Commission. And
it would be my hope, Max, that through the processes of
conciliation and arbitration, all the elements of this dispute
can be dealt with in a way which will bring appropriate industrial
peace in that matter.
WALSH: Just let me turn to another sea of tranquillity, the
Pacific. How do you feel about your fraternal socialist brother,
President Mitterrand coming down to this part of the world?
PM: I don't think it is helpful. And, I'm quite prepared to
say that, not only now, but I have consistently criticised
France and I am not going to mute my criticism because there
is a government in France more of our political persuasion. If
they are wrong, I will tell them. And they are wrong. Let's
get down to the final point. The French can't have it both
ways. They can't say to me, as they did in Paris when I
directly confronted them on this issue, and say, look, t'>. ere is
nothing to worry about. It is safe. If it is safe, let them
conduct their tests in metropolitan France. / 4
WALSH: Right, let me now turn to South Africa: The latest reforms as
put forward by President Botha do you think they have Any
significance at all?
PM: No, they are not of any significance. If by significance you mean
will those reforms, and I would put that in the heaviest of inverted
commas, they could only be regarded as of significance if you ignore
the conclusion Max, that they can lead to a change in the substance
of the abhorrence of apartheid. It is commonly accepted that they are
not going to lead to that position. And indeed the result has been
that President Reagan has moved far from the processes and principles
of constructive engagement that had informed the Administration to
this point of time. The European Community has similarly increased
the strength of their position as has Canada. The evidence is clear
Max, both in terms of the weighting down of the value of the Rand,
the flight of capital from. South Africa, that the world is saying to
South Africa that you are not behaving in way which we will regard
as acceptable into the future. What I am trying to do, and the
Government is formulating its policy accordinufj. Bill Hayden is doing
this as our Foreign Minister and he is doing It with my full support,
is to gradually build up, as far as Australia is concerned, the action
that we take. We have closed down our trade post over there and we
have taken other steps of which you are aware. We are moving ourselves
in a position where we can do more and we will be going to the
Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Bahamas next month trying
to get the support of our Commonwealth colleages for agreement to
further economic pressure. We will be moving from there into the
United Nations with others to try and do that. So we are going to be
part., with I may say, the principles of Malcolm Fraser on this,
and he is impeccable on this issue, to step up the pressure, to
increase, if you like, the size of the stick that the world has to
show to South Africa ~ ut at the same time continuously plead' with the
South African regime to say ' look we don't want the rest of the world
to do those things, we want you to do it' because the inescapable
truthMax, is this-that that regime and those policies cannot
continue indefinitely into the future. If they proceed down that
path without change there will be bloodshed of enormous and tragic
dimensions. It is much better in everyone?~ interests that they should
change. What they have talked about so far is not enough.
* WALSH: Prime Minister, if I could just'ask three fast domestic
questions. PM: I will try and give you three fast answers.
WALSH: The Australia Card, are you still. in favour of its
introduction?
PM: Yes, I believe the concept is right and I believe that) Max,
for this reason. rhat there has been a clear identification that
the introduction of a card would mean that the honest taxpayers
of Australia, which is, of course, the overwhelming majority, would
have available to them by way of the revenue so acquired, hundreds
of millions of dollars which reduce the pressure upon the honest
taxpayers of Australia. That's on the revenue side, on the outlay
side we could also then have an instrument for avoiding the payment
of social welfare payments in a fraudulent way. Now, I recognise
the legitimate concerns that many people have and so I simply say
on this that we will be discussing in the Cabinet the introduction
of this as part of an overall package. but we are not going to be
dogmatic about assertions on this. I will certainly listen to what
others have to say. But in principle I believe it must be accepted
as in Australia's interests.
WALSH: The Bicentennial Authority, there has been some controversy
this week about the departure of David Armstrong and the payment made
to him. This has been done by the Bicentennial Authority but it is
taxpayersimoney. I wonder are you thinking of restructuring that
Authority at this stage?
PM: What I have done is to have discussions with officers of the
Authority and with the Chairman, Mr Reid. I have, frankly, raised with
them some of the concerns that have been expressed by a number of
people Mr McDonald but not him alone. Now we hope there can be
improvement. In that process there has been a resignation to which
you refer of the chief executive. I have indicated to Mr Reid that
as Prime Minister I would like to have a considerable degree of
involvement in the decision that is made to appoint a successor and
may I add this that in a discussion that I have had with the Leader
of the Opposition, I have indicated to him that I believe it
appropriate that I should talk with him also. I want the Bicentennial
to be bi-partisan and I say with full credit to John Howard that I
believe that's his position. We don't want it to be a politica.
-scrap heap so I will do everything I can to involve the opposition in
this decision. I bel * ieve that a great deal of good work has been done.
I believe we have grounds for looking forward to a magnificent year
which will not be just celebrations in 1988 but the undertaking of
projects of lasting benefit to Australia.
WALSH: And what sort of flag should we have in 1988?
PM: I am consistent about this. I am not pressing for a change of
flag. I am saying Max, that I think it is appropriate for pecple to
talk about this, to see if they want something else. But I understand,
and I say this quite seriously, the very deep feeling that hundreds o
thousands of my fel-low Australians have about the existing flaci.
it is one of those things that the Australian community shou.-ci t~ iin.-;
about, talk about in a relaxed and gradual fashion. And if ouzt Of a
process it wa * s clear that there was a great majority of feeling that
we wanted some different sort of identification then that is
appropriate. I think that that is quite different from our National
Anthem. We moved very quickly to get ourselves a distinctive
National Anthem because I for one found it repulsive when I was
watching Olympics to see the Brits get up and win a medal and have
' God Save the Queen' played and'then Australian athlete get up and
win and have the same Anthem played. I think the flag is different.
WALSH: Prime Minister, thanks very much.
PM: Thank you very much Max.