TRAN" SCRIPT OF INTER71:-]-MIC14AEL SCHILDDERGER AND PRIME MINISTER,
RADIO 3L0, 8 15? M, 2 N. OVEMBER 1984
The Costigan findings,
P14 Yes.
MS How quickly do you expect some action will ba taken on'
the recommuiendations?
PM Well they will be taken immnediately by the authorit-is to
whom the full report has been passed. That is the National Cl-iu-z
Authority, the director of Public Prosecutions, the Auctralian
Federal Police~, all the relevant. authorities have the matcrial %) nd
have been acting already and will continue to. In the area ok
any executive or legislative action by government you will. aprciat,.
that the covntions operate in this carxetaker period from-tlhe
2Gth Octobor and we can not tksuhaction in that period. Dut
of courac, I have made it clear t hat we expect t! at tho authoritieG
that are relevant in thir. aroa ad %-zose. a dvice gov ,6' Al
to act upon to be working on itz nd to have thuht & dvica' rcady z~ U3z.
The third point I %-; o; ild lieto make hovover is that I have na.' d qu! L'_
cloarl' that ahould tzhe Nat_" o,. al'Crim~ i Authority or the DPP or
thec Fedcral L'o2ic~ e bcve soxn n-atter iwhich go. cs b, yn th poo-
Uhr0.
V0, . Cc0ldrc
cont 2 and that is clearly understood. On the 11th October,
at otir ministry mnteti: ng I informed the Ministry of the Conventions
that operated at the time after calling an election and these
bind all Governments. I mean if yie were to start taking act-ions
in other areas the Opposition would be screaming the headlines
that we were breaking theConventions and I don't intend to break
thW;: m. But, having said that, there will be nothing lacking in th. e
way in which we want the AuthoritLes that are in place to act. We
insured that they got all-the information they know our total
commlttment to eradicating organised crime in this country and we:
* will be expecting that as soon as' we have won the election and are
then back in the normal business 6f Covernment that all there
recommendations will be ready for us.
Well thxe Opposition is arguing immediately following the Final
report the tabling of it that thie National Crime Authority does
not have enough. teeth.
well r don't think the Oposition will want to be raising
question of the
their head on thejeostigan commisqion I remind you of what the Leader
of the Opposition and others ware carrying on for weeks and months
before which culmhinated in the bleIck Tuesday the 2nd October fc~ r the
Leader of the Opposition in the HOuse when all the allegations were
Made that this Government was soft on organifned crime. That we had
b~ en trying to close the Royal Cc= ission dow-m. There i3 clearly
a CcZp..' lte. repudiation of all thos;-baseless, mñ achevious allogationa
-t i. n the noport Itself and evc more cpecifically in statezznts by
iczloioncr Cooigan since the releace. og his rv-prt.
MS Prime Mini:; tcr, are there any, name:; in the volumes which
we haven't seen which migfit be of some personal embarrassment to
you or to the Labor Party?
PM Well, I can say no, but 1, having said that, I am not
going to canvass the confidenitial volumnes for the obvious reason~ s
why they are confidential, for two very good reasons. That is
th;-t existing investigations or potential investigations should riot
be in any way prejudiced.
MS Mm~ I asked the question o'bviously because that is what Andrew
Peacock was hoping would be revealed in the Costigan Report.
PM *.. Well, he has behaved in a totally objectionable way in -this
matter which is recognised universally, the , you recall the sorts
of things. I will just remrind you of the sorts of things he said on
* the 3rd of October this was followving his black Tuesday in the
Parliament where by universal judgement he was condemned for his
actions in respect of myself. He then, on the next day on an am.
programm~ e said, " the regretable factor is we are going to the election
campaiign winithout Mr Hawke allowing the Australian people to knowv
what is in the Costigan report. ALustralia is entitl. ed to know the
extent to which this sophisticated network of organised crima iEs
taking over ths country. Yiet the Prime minister is not going to
* allow this to occur. T1fiis. man"# and thatis me ' is trying to
* walk away from telling Australiano just-what. the extent of the t. hreat
Vcn ilt vas lies Eram the very beginang from when he decid~ ed
to ezubark upon this taictic of personal ins inuations and allogatLonz
agrinst ius and the Government. He knew that he was not telling the
truth an~ d he haa boean revealled ncotg in tho Parliament a~ nd in the
Colian for v-what ha Sz.
I: S V n Jndln a th enqiuiry. Would you prge
00VS
con 4
Justice Murphy to stand aside for the time being?
No, it is quite improper for you to be no I don't mean
it is improper for you to ask the question but. it is improper for
that sort of issue to be raised. the question of what happens on the
High Court, Michael, is for the High Court. it is a matter for Sir
Harry Gibbs and his judges. It would be a total breach of the basis
under
I.. upon which Government the Westminster system operates for the
Executive Governutmnt to reek to intrude into the judiciary. our
Westminster system is founded on the division of powers between the
Parliament, the Executive and the ' Judiciary. What has to be donet
as far as the Executive level of Government is that the laws as they
stand should operate. That is whaL is happening, the full proceedings
of the Senate Committee are before' the Director of Public Prosecutions
under the Law and the DPP' is investigating that material, he has
indicated to the Attorney General' that that will take some weeks.
That is how it must standi and fortunately I see'that my frieid
Senator Chipp has indicated'that je how that 1O 1e i respect
Chim for-that, of course, thr4 Liberals can't be cornsistient on anything,
on the first day after this thar was a state~ ment saying thnat it
should be as I have put it, it -, hould be left to run-according to
its normial processes and then they thought they could got 30= 3
mileage and they haveo changed their tune..
I-IS Can I quote you the eainlParty leader, Tan Sincla. ir.
Ilt is for the Primo Y'inistez' to take action to Onsura tha
of the High Court is not sulliod because of the failure oZ on,. of V
former colleagues to a~ ccept ti-ha: very carious ZindlAngs agzain.-t hit
= re..
3. 1
Well here we have the well known gutter tactics of which
the person you are quoting is the acknowledged master. Guilt
by association, my former colleague. This is one thing
that surprises me about these people is that they are such slow
learners. The Australian Public has repudiated this smear,
guilt by association innuendo tactic, and yet they keep going
on with it. The fact is that the Report that has been made is
a report of a Committee of the Senate, one of the Houses of the
Parliament and it is proper that when the Parliament resumes that
that House of the Parliament con~ iders that report. It will do
so and of course the other House of the Parliament will have to
consider the position as well. Currently, the only right and
proper thing to do is that the L~ w be followed and the Law
requires that the Director of Public Prosecutions considers this
material. He is considering it and it is up to the Director of
Public Prosecutions to make a decision as to whether he believes
on the material, that a prosecution is warranted. That's his
function. The reason why the there is a Director of Public
I' Prosecations under the La is to take these matters out of the
area of political decision.
MS Have you spoken recently to Mr Justice Murphy?
PM No
How long since you have?
Pt! I Sinco thin enquIry has oen under way?
P14 I coul3 check tt but it ; is a long time ago * ontha
I
o,
cont 6
1MS.... can we interupt this briofly for a ne~ w service?
PM Ofcourse.
MS PM recall that he was at a social function I am not sure
how long ago, that may have been a couple of months ago too. It wa s
the farewell in Sydney to the Federal Secretary to the Miscellanio-as
Workers Union, Mr Ray Gietzelt, I had no private conversations with
him there. openly in front of hundreds--of people.
the reason for the question, obviously was whether you
had had any discussions about the; matter, which obviously you haven't.
You talked, ' again in passing though about innuendo in relation to this,
but also perhaps I should get back to the Costigan Royal Commiss ion
here and say that of course is what K( erry Packer is saying is
happening to him.
PM 0.0. Yes# well I made the posi'tion of the Government clear at
the press conference yesterday about the view wie have about the
naming of people of not being cha~ rged even in some cases may
not bei charged, and indicated that in principle the Government was
opposed to that but in the circumstances surroundifig this report
there was no alternative but to publish the report in the form theywere.
But I have made our position clear on thiat and I don't tinrthero
is any point in g6Lng any further on it.
I-IS you have any sy-mpath for 1Kerry. Packer?
PH4... I have sympathy for anyo : e according to the basic principlaG
whaich operate in our society and ' fe2 which~ I have understood th~ at
everyone regards as fundamental that people are innocent u. ntil prcvon4
guilty and that they-should be have the protection that goeo Yith
that principla. I ddn' t -t6hink, owovar, having scr5. d that anc
* cont 7
tha't clear that there is, any purpose or public interest served i~ n
me proceeding any further into what is essentially now a disputation
between Commissioner Costigan, I ' guess, and Mr Packer.
MS Have you talked in recent times to Ke~ rry Packer?
No
MS How long since you have?,
I think again the last time I would-. have seen Kerry Packer
was in the viewing I think of millions of people, I think it was
the occasion when the Bulletin and the Newsweek married as it were,
nestled in together and there was; a public launching of that event
* in Sydney. I was sitting at the pam~ e table, I think at a conservative
estimate 2 or 3 million people would have seen it.
14S Prime Minister, TAX What form exactly will the major
* review that you have undertaken tip carry out, what form will that
take? Pm twell, the matter will beconsidered by EPAC. the Ecn-nomic
Planning Advisory Council. That's the forumiwhich as you know
Michael was established after the:: suxmmit last year, which was lihe
a m~ ini-sumfmit on a statutory basi, the business cowunityv.: Iarcja
and smnall, the trade unions: the farmers the States, Local Governments
and community organisBations in the form of ACOS and consinmr
organisations were all there repro sented... w. have comiueaccd the
ftom last year adthrou-h thi. s yca dicsso abu az
a~ fter the election we vill meet a*, tin in EPAC and will p~.-Ic u,
discussion there as to how they wiould best see the eflla-eme~ nt of
ti debato out into tho coiitunity.: I will be vary utn cj
Tzided by & 11 ' thone comvnity orgV~ nicaiono who X m~ ight eny ! 2v
cz* ch o2 on bahalf cO the o COLTuU& ty that they c
cont.... put in written submissionzs, ptreliminiary writton submissions to
EPAC as to how they see cesirabic chanc'es occurring.
MS You are not thinking of appointing someone in particular
to conduct an enquir-.
PM -No.
MS The Summit
PM The important thinq is the community, we have got to get
the views of the community through their organisations.
MS So the summit therefore, is to be part of the Review.
PM I t will be a culmination. What we will do is through
the EPAC processes we will build up through their and through
other consultations a " white paper" which will bring together
very substantially the view that have been put to government and
that will contain as I see it certain packages which would represent
a distilling of the view of the community as to how they see a twc
system which would be fare, simple and equitable and we would have
the summit ~ or whatever you call it Summit or National Conference,
the word is not important, I think Summit has become well knotm now
but then at that gathering of the people, they would have the
( opportunity of examinhi~ g this " wyhite paper" and I believe that out
of this process will then get what has never been done bafore in
this country a substantiral degree of consensus on What, is the fairest
moot effiecient form of tax system.
You tal] z of consensus, but isn't it faro to say that thet AMU3
will hava the biggest iput?
PH4 N.. lo not only is it not fa~ re, but it is erroneous. The Pos; ition
o f the ZkC'rU io important in thics respco-t and in~ Iprtant Oor
overy aingle paroon in the counit. ry that the impact up-on citisenz Cn
tvz pa~ yar o2 aI tan vyiw can ba tvzO f-olca ti diroat x
02 th'o coo~ t o2 the tax that they'hava to pay OCCnd 7i MA
ag 9 o œ 8
* cont 9
so often understood, but ncvc. rthles s very irMportant is the potentially
inflationary impact of a tax. So that it is very much in interests
of all citizens that if for instance -in an overall tax package theria
was a view that there should he a mfove:-to more indirect taxes if
that were the case, then its important that the trade union rovement, who
on behalf of workers will be making claims for wage increases to c& cver
price increases have an acceptance'of the inner relationship between
that tax change and what they will do in wage claims. Because if
you don't have an acceptance by thbse representatives of the workers
who are going to determine the level of tAage claims about how that
tax should be taken into account the community may suffer from
significant inflationary impact from a decsion in the tax area.
14S Well or the question of this acceptance by' the ACT)
you have the problem with ~> Dolan saying he will not accept
indirect taites in. any form.
PH No, you won't get very far down-thait track. The ACTO IN
a written statement made quite clear uhat there position was and
I b. elieve when you look what the ACT) has done in EPA. C over very
many months now and the discussio~ s that have been held there
including Cliff Dolan and the statement of the officers generally
in the last week or so there will be no problem in being able to
have these dliscussions * with the rAtTU tow'ards the objectiva, to aohie
the objectiv7e I have bzen tallking* about. The P.~ CIU has been verf
very responsiblo in the vperio& oij-ca uwe have been in of f ica in
talking not junt tiith uts but vlth Government arnd on theice icnu~ a.
I cm totally conftdent i.. hat va will ba able to aciiieve. tha obectveo
I.
cont MS Does that mean locking out Cliff Dolan?
PM It doesn't mean locking out Cliff Dolan at all, Cliff
Dolan has been in the discussions.' You ought to understand
that political, economic and social life of this country has never
been and will never be determined by interpretation of one
particular sentence that a man utters at a particular point of time.
MS Are you referring to Cliff. Dolan?
PM Well I am saying that you have" got to take acnenn-of
Cliff's position throughout. Cliff has been on EPAC he has been
a very useful and involved member pf EPAC. I think you will find
that as this thing develops, that Cliff Dolan and all the officers
of the ACTU will be positively, constructively involved in reaching
the objectives I'm talking about.
MS But Cliff Dolan has said that more than once. It's not
just one sentence taken out of context.
PM Well I don't intend to say any more than I have just oaid.
I have the total conviction and I would say the knowledge that a
will not just the government but the whole community, till
have cooperation of the ACTU.
MS Have you talked to Cliff Dolan recently about it?
PM I have tried a couple of times to get Cliff, he wasn't there.
I have spoken to other officers of tho ACTU but I have no concernm
to
about thiso... Cliff is of to Grinova now, the Governing Board of
the ILO you know I know aomethlng about that. He'll ba there for
ocmo tiIE, Z think.
' OUr pleasod about that ate you?
. I
S. o o r
cont 11
PM No, well, I am pleased for Cliff, I know how enjoyable
those meetings are, and constructive.
You are asking the Austral ian people to give you a blank
cheque in regard to tax.
PM No that's absolutely ridiculous.
MS.... Why?
PH Because it's not true and all1 untrue statements are
ridiculous. I-I Well why is that untrue, : you are asking us : to accept....
Did you read the statem~ nt? Perhaps if you read,,,, you
have read the tax statement have you?
KS I have seen t1he report of' that statement
PM I suggest that you read it M~ ichael and you will see tha~ t
M4S Well I know what you are; going to say to me, you are g~ oing
to say that the
P14 You are getting better: and better you even knoty vThat I
am going to say Michael.... you are getting good when you even~
Itnoui what I a~ going to All I am souggesting Ilich. Qoll my
dear friend io that it wiould h3 a good idea to read the otcaxo. ent
and if you read the ctateinent you wouldn I say that I am azking
for a blanik cheque. 11hat I aan doing Th Saying to th3 Australin
people X am. giving thiD Australian I? n-opJO a blan. fk checla5e T-A; ch As
a quite different thing I aim ccy1. ng to 11io Australianh p . Io
thzough afll your reprcs3enetve organ is ations I v~ iant you to Joinf
rwlLGhvtWan mntLnto, 10, z'wth* t'ho Coy ox-& nt tz~ rinQ7 to " i77-
OVu' ht i necessary to L ?: Ove; & av'h ich has tu= Xl U hr = 1
t1-0 3 II 71cl lt: 7a. oOfk 34
12
Conservative Goverrnments had been in pcwer there ila6. been no
attempt at a comprehensive atcempt at a review of the taxation
system,
MS.... There are those who would say the Asprey Committee.
PM Yes but was done about it? No I am simply saying
that you have had the Asprey committee Report there are other
people who have been looking at the tax systCem--MatheWS,
but under that period of Conserva tive Governmient as I said in
the Statement what you really had was carrots before elections
and then beating the pecple with sticks after~ wards. So the
blank cheque I am giving is not for myself, X am saying to the
Australian People you through your organisations, through
the Cou ncil of Small Business Organisations or the Chamber of
Commerce, the Confederati-on of Australian industry, the National
F'armers, the Business Council of Australia; the Trade Unions. lets
all together examine the things that need to be done to make this
very complex tas system simpler, ak it fairer and most importantly
. lichael, to ensure that we do what is necessary to'ensure that all
people ob~ y the law, that we absolutely stamp out the tar. avoidance
industry so that all people meet * their obligations, pay Ea:. 1owr
that's not asking for a bla. nk cheque for me. Its the oposite, I'm
saying to the Australian peo~ le its a blank chequ. e to you# I'm
caying its going to be in your hads in a w~ ay itG. nevar bi-on cafra.
Woul . d you ba any bretter of having had tli~ t review beforel
tho election. The cana review
Wo, V. o, I' Ir cying If cnc2 ZyI~ acv 0o cop
so you can roa2d thic atac-muontv0-hatlr oi31' Z. An o
cont 13
is that this process has been going on 4nd in the public minutes of
EPAC Of March of this year we point out. there that this is a long
process, we started it then its got to go on through and after the
election. and that is where all the people were represented. I
the
mean EPAC . Is a mini-summit. It had whole spectrum of the
community represented and their spokespersons there said, this muE. t
go on and what is happening now is therefore no surprise it is a
continuation of what the people's representatives through EPAC said
hazd to happen.
MS What I am putting to you though, wouldn't you be better off
going into an election campaign by being able to say this we will do
and this we won't do.
that would mecrely be a repetition of the way in which the
Conservatives have handles tax before, They've dreamt-up short
term gimmnicks before an election and said, look, this is what we Vill
do, and this is what vie will do. : Now that if) not the way to handle
it. You have got to have a long and detailed analysis with the
Ccommunity' making inputs into thic' process I am not going to yjive the
Australian people the same sor t of contemptuous treatment that tho
Conservatives had.
Look, tha question I am putting to you is that if you had
bZ 3n a2:) 1 to have
gona for 3 years you Could have hfr1 the review and thcn gone in. 4~
positive que'stiofls
Pii... fyou asking a question now, would it have booan ba tter liot "' a
have had the election nowi? if tlis icG a complicated wayp 9: anking
thAt Uutlon
0 It~ 0
1 Corit
MS No because I know what your answer is to that yoj have given
it to me many times about why you want the election now.
PM.... Yes
M4S ut had you gone longer you would have been able to have
the review arid would have been in a better position.
P M Yes, but that's like saying if you were wearing a different
colour suit, you would look different to the-. way you mean
the facts are that the election niust-. be held now. We have to operate
on that basis. I have openly ope rated in that framework in EPAC
The community throught its representatives have zaid yes we want to
follow this process and after the election we will go on with it.
Its quite silly Michael to q~ ay weil if there had been something else
then something else would have followed differently. The
facts are we have started the taxation review process through EPACD
they have acknowledged that there is an election coming up and then
this should go on after the election. I mean they are the facto of
life. Its quite silly to say well if you had been there, for thre
years something else would have been different. Of course it wouald
MS Prime KOinister, will you'be making any other more specific
prom~ isea in your policy speech? in other words any othar cuprises
to come in any area?
PM Oh. there won't be any other new-co~ tittments Michael, : cauce
what the wiat the ' hasic promise that vni'll ba giving tho IAnctrallan
poople is that U73llcoflt. lnue# no only tha policy but the pxocezz oL
policy making whLich han turned this country round from the dicarotcr
inheritcai in I-arch og 083. E raaan p.-oplo at the end oc 11 ko
that ZLustralia is ain un~ ocognicabiy bettox, more eficlit and
echosiva cociaty than At uan and* v-a are o5~ iply qain. g ~ Agi
tlia rpzo-L> c o$ Australia tshat toyot~ hnr i.. r havQ cdonc th ~ af
7~ oo
cbnt.. an~ d the people have done that. lie are goingj to continue on in
that way to translate these changes that have dramatically
the p-c riod of government to ensure that those changes go on in to
a long term basis to give sustained long t-er-m noninflationary
growth. Thata what the people want thats whay they apprecAte the
Government. There will however, be some new specifics, but not
a large number.
M~ S Just another couple of questions. One specifically here
that I would like to ask on unernpioyment&-. You gave -a promise last
time that during 3 year period you would be able to create 500,000
jobs, you are well ahead of target. How about the next three years
will you make a promise in. that regard, because~ not only will you
have to promise the creation of new jobs presumably but also can
you put a figure on reducing unemploynent? Two different things.
PM Yes, but two related things. The 3 promises that I made
in'the last election have been all: kept or more than kept in thiis
area. I said that we would halt the explosion of unemploymient.
That happened from 10.3% it is now down to less than 9 to 8.8%
K secondly that we would start to crzcate new jobs well that has
happened. There is 260,000 new jobs since the sunit againvt the loss
of 200,000 jobs in the pi~ ecediang 1' 2 months. 1. said that in the f irst
3 years j million new jobs we ara ahead~ of that target. Now I. thinkt
that in the at the t. e of th election policy opaech and in tha
parlod of the election w~ e will try' to give some indication just hou,'
that target has been kept.
-S.. VOU are not going to tell ia -now, obviously.
PM 0, bacauaa I had Q targot pcaiad then in m~ ind~ and 2: ron1
targoto ahaz of targe-t icith -Lhatr thats what tho P'nople n~ ? hee'n
t. o Itnoz,. Zt mwij b that -aM bn able to pus that paxiod out
16 cont
and make some more prcdictior-s but they wiLll not be made unless
I am certain of being able to achieve them. I knew in Feb/ March
of ' 83 that we could produce and would produce the objectives that
I put then. Anything that we put to the people during this election
campaign will be achieveable.
MS is this campaign too lcng?
PM No, I don't think so. I know that there were some people
and within my own party who said who said don't announce the
electon, but I made it guite clear that T wanted to get away from
what had happened under the Conservatives where they had'played
around and said :" Oh there might be an election and there might
not be" Now that is silly,. that sort-of thing. Once I had
made up my mind when it was going to De I thought the people were
entitled to know. The second point I would make is this: That let'o
say that I hadn't said it, that it was going to be the 1st of D-aemher
I think that people would still have conducted themselves, they
had a feeling there was going tobe an election..... it was better for
the conimunity and certainly better for the retail community that,
it be certain. Has Andrew Peacock camqigne. d better than expacted*
PM4 No I said to my poople that I thought in the first week or
so that the Opposition unauld have the advantaga. They maere able!
to raico a-* couple of iosues and T Said to r people w3liv
plenty oZ tim~ e about this... on the tax iocuo, 7 caid Va rill hendle
thia In a way which will b-3 accutatoo right and reacaun. flg. U~
1r3 what ba happened and thzcre Ab no doubt ~ Tnat h~ as cZ_-cc nozi, La
tfhat will dclrzte the cloction the total COXICT-Ez ~ mr
LClc= d~ I. o thot ute
17 cont
their stated dolicies the Australian tax payers will Pay very, very
much more tax, very, very much more tax t%-han. they are now.. They
will be worse of f, they carn't ma ke up their mind. They have
Rr Sinclair saying there will be lower . taxes.. Mr Howard saying there
will be more takies and of course Mr Peacock you know he is not
a Ciant in the economic or fiscal area really not saying anything.
So you have the total Opposition, the projected deputy Prime minister
MLr Sinclair, reduce taxes. Projected Treasurer, saying more taxon
and when you look at what they are saying it. is no surprise that you
have this chaos. That chaos is going to become clearer and clearer
and clearer with each passing day. AS we have got it now the
opposition have reveal~ d. to the people of A~ ustralia that they don't
even know amonqst themselves w-. hat the Economic and Fiscal implications
of their statements are. All that you can put is that there must
be an increase in the budget deficit, there must be an increase : l. n
the level ef taxation there must t~ a a significant increase in in! f. lation.
They are the inevitable results of what the Opposition has said s; o
far. With each day between now and the first of December the bar~ renflCss
and the potential disaster of the oppositions Economic statem-
onts are going to becomne clearer: and clearer to the Australian
People. MS 1Will you win more seats?
I thi~ nk so
I-2 Prime Minister tbank you tor joining me.