4~ USTRLA~
PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT -SUNDAY PROGRAM 28 JULY 1984
E 0 E PROOF ONLY
JOURNALIST: It's just two weeks since the Labor Party
National Conference ended in Canberra and the Prime Minister
returned bathed in glory to the task of drawing up a pre-election
Budget. It seems then that the only thing left to do was to
chose a H~ ate for the early election. This week the Government wen-t off the
rails somevhat the Mick Young affair which at first seemed under
control blew up into a major political liability. It's a test
of Bob Hawke's leadership now and especially when the inquiry
by Mr Black QC reports next month. The Prime Minister joins
us in our Canberra studios today. To interview him Richard
Farmer, political correspondent of The Bulletin, Paul Kelly
of the Sydney Morning Herald and Sunday's Robert Haupt.
HAUPT: Thank you Jim. And thank you for joining us this
morning Prime Minister.
Thank you Robert.
HAUPT: Well as you know to your this is the second time!
round for Mick Young. Justice Hope found that he'd leaked
national security information and left it to the Government to
decide what to do. Now if Mr Black finds a Customs breach will
Mick Young be allowed to stay on in the Ministry?
There are two stages in this and let me be quite clear
about them. On the Friday the 20th July when I received the
report through the Minister for Customs, or the Minister for
Industry and Commerce responsible for Customs, Senator Button
on the basis of that report which expressed complete satisfaction
as far as the Comptroller-General of Customs was concerned
the Minister reported to me that he was satisfied and I accepted
that. So was I. Now the matter as far as we were concerned was
closed then. And that included the disclosed action of Mr Young
and the treatment of it by the Customs. And let me remind you
Robert that when Senator Button had reported this matter to mie
on the day it occurred, the 5th of July, he had told me that he
had instructed the Comptroller-General of Customs that Mr Young
was to be treated no differently from anyone else. And I
confirmed that that was the case and that it had to be. It was
on the basis of no different treatment from anyone else that
when the final report came to us on the 20th of July that the
decision that no further action should be taken against Mr
Young stood. Now that's to that point. Now on the Tuesday
the 24th at 7.15 p. m. that evening Senator Button received
P. M. cont.: further information through Ihe Comptroller-General
of Customs. He came to see-me at 9.30 at The Lodge. On the
basis of that information we initiated interviews, brought pecople
to Canberra the next day Wednesday the 25th and sent people
to Adelaide. And therefore the answer to your question is that
as a result of the inquiry that has now been initiated by us
into a situation where there is now a conflict of evidence thEre
must be, out of that inquiry into that conflict of evidence, there
must be a clear -vindication of the actions and the statements of
the Minister a fact which I think that he recognised in his
press conference last Friday. There must be a clear vindication
of his actions and statements. There can be no room for doubt: and
associated with that there can be the emergence of no relevant
information now which was not conveyed to the Minister, that's
Senator Button, or myself.
HAUPT: What you're saying is that the inquiry must exonerate
Mick Young. But if there's some sort of an open finding or
continued confusion that that simply won't be good enough for
Mick Young. Yes there must be a clear exoneration and I believe
that Mick in his statement on Friday made that clear. I mean
I obviously can't go into all the details that have to examined
by Mr Black. But there already is the case that in regard to
one matter that has been canvassed in the press-since Thursday,
an allegation made, and in respect of that allegation a very
explicit repudiation of that that is in regard to the Customs
form, a possible second Customs form nc-w Mr Young has clearly
repudiated to the leadership of the Party that any such thing
occurred. Now that's merely an example. But it's not proper
for me to canvass those issues. I just give that as an
illustration.
FARMER: In that same press conference that Mr Young gave to
which you referred he drew attention to what he thought was
the position that if you set too high a standard for members
of Parliament there wouldn't be any members of Parliament left
of if there were any members left they'd all be crooks. I was
just wondering what your view of that is.
Well I think on the question of standards Mick will have
to live by the standards which he himself set in his speech
to the Parliament last year 1982 I riean on Mackellar/ Ploore.
Mick set out the standards there and I guess people will say
that they are the standards that should apply. But that's in
a political sense. I am not at this point concerned with going
to that area. This Government has acted impeccably on this issue.
We've now referred the new information to Mr Black. You will
appreciate that once we received that information on the Tuesday
night, and then on the Wednesday got in -the results of those
interviews, and we were faced with a conflict of evidence, it would
not have been fair to anyone to make a judgement then. It would
not have been fair to Mr Young. Importantly, it would not have
been fair to certain officers of the Commonwealth Public Service,
including those in Customs, to make a judgement for or against
them. And it wouldn't have been fair to the public. So we had
to create the situation where someone else could examine all those
/ 3
P. M. cont.: facts which we were not capable-of doing, and then
make that judgement. I would just if I could make this point about
the whole affair it has been said in respect of Mick Young t: hat
he has not learnt from his experience during the Combe Ivanov
Royal Commission. Now that's to be decided by an inquiry of
Mr Black. One thing you don't need an inquiry into to determine
where there hasn't been a learning is in respect of the Opposition.
You will recall that in the period of the Cornbe Ivanov Royal
Commnission Mr Peacock and others around him were going qff in
the Parliament and outside attacking the Government saying here's
a cover-up etc. Now, of course, it was not true then and there
was a complete vindication of our actions. of course in their
hopelessness now they are accusing Senator Button and myself and
the Government of a cover-up. There has been no cover-up and it's
a pity that they wouldn't learn from their-own mistakes.
KELLY: Mr Hawke, I wonder if you've learnt from what happened
last year. In particular do you believe that you made a mistake
bringing Mr Young back to the Cabinet last year after a fairly
tough finding against him by Mr Justice Hope. You told us then
that Mick Young had learnt his lesson. Do you still say that
today? Well obviously the answer to that Paul I mean it is so
obvious I'm surprised you ask it I have put to you quite clearly
in answer to the previous-questions that as of Tuesday night new
information, including allegations, became available. How can
I answer your question when I have appointed an inquiry in the
person of Mr Black to investigate those allegations. Now if
it is found, and I stress if, if it should be found by Mr Black
against Mr Young, then I'd be in a position to answer your question.
And it would have to be yes. But that's obviously until we get
the report of Mr Black hypothetical.
FARMER: Prime Minister are you satisifed that Senator Button
acted thoroughly enough when he was first told by his
Comptroller-General of Customs that there was this problem with
Mr Young's return. It does seem remarkable that new evidence
should have come up. How could that happen if the intial inquiry
was Well1 you understand the mechanics of these things. He,
as Minister for Industry and Commerce, has Customs under his
control. The Comptroller-General who is also the Secretary
of his Department has an independent authority as you appreciate
as Comptroller-General of Customs. Now Senator Button not only
acted properly but he behaved absolutely impeccably throughout
this. As soon as he was told on the 5th of July that this
problem had arisen his first direction to the Comptroller-General
was, as I have said, that Mr Young should have no special
treatment. He should be treated as any other citizen. That was
what was done. Now the next step as it were was that there
were questions to Mr Young conducted, not by Senator Button, but
through the Comptroller-General of Customs where it had to be done.
There was then the necessary delay until the 11th of July befor
Mrs Young returned from overseas. And then following that further
inquiries. And on the 20th of July the delivery to Senator
Button of a report which concluded, the report concluded, that
the Comptroller-General regarded the matter as closed. It was ./ 4
4.
P. M. cont.: not until he got that report from the Comptroller-
General that Senator Button made his judgement, conveyed it tc'
me and I concurred in that judgement. Now his behaviour till
then was impeccable, absolutely ensuring no preferential
treatment. And then on the Tuesday, it was at 7. l5, that in
a telephone conversation it was conveyed to him by the
Comptroller-General that new information had come to the
Comptroller-General.
FARMER: That me-ans that the Comptroller-General hadn't been
far enough into
Well it doesn't necessarily mean that. I mean as a matter
of logic, please Richard, understand that. I mean if the
Comptroller-General had done the best he could to follow it
up and then for some reason which the Comptroller-General would
not be aware of some officer then makes another statement, then
as soon as he became aware of these new statements the Comptroller-
General immediately contacted Senator Button. Now the Senator
when he was contacted at 7.15 p. m. Tuesday night, he contacted
me and came to The Lodge at 9.35. And together we immediately
initiated the action to get the people to Canberra and to send
people to Adelaide so that the investigations could be undertaken.
Now that was starting at 9.30 at The Lodge on the Tuesday night.
The enquiries and the interviews were taking place then on
Wednesday, the 25th, and it was by the end of the 25th that I
was then able to have the four Leaders together, which obviously
included Senator Button who is also one of the Leaders as well
as being the Minister and we were then proceeding to deal
with it. We'd made a prima facie conclusion as to the necessi~ ty
for an inquiry and standing Mr Young aside. We talked with hi _ m
the following morning and that was the course of action that
was pursued. Now the action of Senator Button at all points
has been impeccable. 1
HAUPT: At that point, Mr Prime Minister, when you made the
decision to appoint Mr Black to a special. inquiry, you were
treating Mr Young in way that an ordinary citizen would not
have been treated. An ordinary citizen would have had this
new evidence assessed either by-the Customs Bureau.. or Customs
investigators or. by the Federal Police.
Well in respect of the ordinary treatment of Mr Young
vis a vis another citizen, that was done in regard to the
information up until the 20th he paid his penalty. Now what you
had at this point, after the Tuesday evening, were two sets
of considerations and I'm sorry Robert but if you think it
through, and you've got a good logical mind, you'll see that
what you're spinning around on is not accurate. There are
two things that have to be dealt with and they are being
dealt with absolute propriety. The first. is that Mr Young
was a Minister and there needed to be an inquiry in regard to
what had happened to him. So he had to be stood aside. He
couldn't stay as a minister while that inquiry was going on.
So he was stood aside. Now in regard to anything that may
involve or require action against Mr Young or anyone else
as a result of those enquiries that will be done in respect
of Mr Young or any other person in exactly the same way as
it would be in regard to any other citizen.
RAUPT: But what you're assessing here is the-propriety of Mr
Young continuing in the Ministry..
Now wait a minute you are partly right but there is
more than that. The question of his propriety and the properness
of him staying on as a Minister is in issue. And so he stands
aside while the inquiry is going on. But there is also the
question involved in the allegations and the evidence that
has been put forward not only as to whether Mr Young has
done something improper but there's also the questions that
arise as to whether other people might have done something
improper. It's not just Mr Young. And so out of this inquiry
there might have to be recommendations for action against a
number of people. Now this is the perfectly proper and normal
way of going about this.
KELLY: Mr Hawke I wonder if we could just quickly look at two
other areas of policies. First of all aboriginal land rights.
Yes.
KELLY: You said during the election campaign that you were
committed to uniform land rights bill. Do you still stand by
that. And secondly, would you reaffirm your commitment which
was endorsed by the recent Labor Party National Conference to
phase out funds for wealthy private schools.
The first question is quite clear and the Minister has
been pursuing since we've been in Government the process which
he promised the Australian people-he would do. That is we were
not going to be a Government which was going to rush in and
impose our will without consultation with all the interests
involved. And those interests involved include the aboriginal
people themselves, that includes the mine owners, it includes
the rural interests and it includes the States. And my Minister,
Mr Holding, has in fact been painstakingly engaged in those
processes. We're not going to rush into it but we retain an
absolute commitment. And as distinct from the Opposition we
won't be walking away from principle. It's going to be
very interesting I may say to see whether Mr Malcolm Fraser is
going to disown his successor on this abandonment of principle.
We won't be walking away from ours. Now in regard to the
question of funds for education we have been engaged in
detailed discussions with represenatives of all interests in
the education system. That is the Government schools, the
teachers, the Catholic systemic school area and the non-Catholic
private school area. And I'm saying to you that I believe tha~ t
the decisions that will be announced in the very near future
by Senator Susan Ryan will meet the proper requirements of all.
Australians in regard to education. And that is that irrespective
of the creed or the income positions of their parents every
Australian child should have the right to the development of his
or her talent. That will be achieved.
HAUPT: Mr Prime Minister thank you very much for joining us
this morning. Thank you very much.