1J, AL'STiA1IA ,1
E. O. E. PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW ON JOHN LAWS PROGRAM, 2UE, 5 MARCH 1984
LAUS: And we welcome the Prime Minister of Australia, Bob Hawke. Good Morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good lonuing John.
LAWS: Good to see you looking fit.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
LAWS: Seen out in the sun?
PRIME MINISTER;
A bit.
LAVWS: Playing tennis?
PRIME MINISTER:
Not recently unfortunately.
LAWS:
Good game.
PRIME MINISTER:
It's the best.
LAWS: How's your backhand?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it's effective, yes, it's effective.
LAWS: I have terrible trouble with the backhand because I wiggle my hip
round. You'll tell me I have got to lock that hip.
PRIME MINISTER:
And get that shoulder moving as well. You'll have to come up and have
a game John.
LAWS: Like to.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good. Done.
2
LAWS:
' You've had your shoulder into it for 12 months today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes that's right.
LAWS: 12 months that you've enjoyed.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. LAWS: 12 months that's been good for the country?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think so John, yes. Well when I say I think so you can point to
the objective evidence. In the 12 months before we came in about
150,000 jobs disappeared. Since April there has been about 140,000
jobs created. The unemployment percentage has come down, inflation
has come down, interest rates have come down. So those are pretty
important tests, I think, for the average person John.
LAIS: Do you think that some of that might have come to fruition even had
the Fraser Government stayed there? Do you think that the breaking
of the drought, for example, had an effect?
PRIME MINISTER:
Obgiously the breaking of the drought has helped and I have made it
quite clear all the way along the line that the breaking of the drought,
the United States recovery have been pluses. Ve have obviously got to
acknowledge that. But basically the substance of the Australian
recovery has been founded in the new attitude, the new cooperation,
the absence of confrontation. Industrial disputes are the lowest they
have been for 15 years. People are now working together rather than
dissipating our resources fighting against one another and specific
policies I mean the housing industry, that didn't depend upon the
drought or the United States recovery. It was down on its knees now
we have turned it. round by specific policies the First Home Owners
Scheme, increase in funds to the public housing sector. So it has been
Government policies and attitudes we have engendered which have been
basically important.
LAWS: What do you regard as the greatest achieveiment of the first 12 months?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think there is any doubt John that the greatest achievement is
what I mentioned to you a moment ago. It is the end to ccnfrontation.
We had become as you know, you've tal-R_ about it, a very divided
society where everybody was fighting one another. We were wasting time,
wasting resources. I promised national reconciliation. I think we
have gone a very long way to achieving that. That's the thing of which
I'm proud of.
LAWS: Yes, now do you see that as a Bob Hawke achievement or as a Labor
Government achievement? I I
PRIME MINISTER:
We have all been involved in it. I have had to give the: leadership.
I guess the concept of thn L ational Economic Summit was very much a
Hawke concept but it worked because all my Ministry and the people
around me worked to make it work, So I claim some personal involvement
and credit. I certainly have some personal pride in it, but it couldn't
have happened without everyone around me making this sort of approach
central to their own approach.
LA'WS: Coild it have happened without Bob Hawke?
PRIUE MINISTER:
I doubt if the concept of national reconciliation was there in anyone
else's eyes, I certainly had been the one who had been giving expression
to that and particularly in terms of the Summit and what flowed from it
it is a matter of record that those were my ideas. But I don't want to
waste time on that aspect of it. The important thing is that all the
people around me in the Government have worked themselves according to
these Ideas. They have applied their very considerable talents to
making it work. It has been a team effort.
LAWS: Yes. I get to talk to a lot of staunch Labor supporters, both privately
and publicly. Some argue, and some argue quite vehemrntly, that the
aims and the achievements of Bob Hawke are very often quite different
to the Labor Party. Are they?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I thiki the correct answer is this; that if you look back over the
12 months John, we have seen more done in that 12 months to implement
Labor policies probably than in any 12 months of any previous Labor
Government. At the same time I have been quite astringent in saying
that we have a basic obligation not just to the Labor Party but we have
a basic obligation to the community as a whole, and essential to that,
as you know I have talked over the years to you about this, is a healthy
private sector. If you haven't got a healthy private sector where 3/ 4
of our people are employed then the country is not going to be working
well. Now the emphasis that I have given on this relationship between
the public and the private sector to get a healthy prviate sector going
may be an emphasis that some people in the Labor movement haven't in
the past given.
LAWS: Does that worry you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No because I know that we're right on this.
LAWS: z,
What's more important, the people of Australia or the Labor Party?
PRIME MINISTER:
Thee is no question of what is more important, the people of Australia
are the number one responsibility. They must come first and the Labor
Party must understand that. Any political party must understand that.
LAWS: Do you think the Labor Party does understand it?
4
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. Just let ms make a point sorry to interrupt you if you
look at the polls I am not talking about just mine and the
Government's, but the important p int is look at the proportion of
Labor supporters where they are saying that ove' 90% of Labor supporters
are saying they support the approach that I am adopting in this
respect, so the evidence is there.
LAWS: I think it's refreshing, and I think that is probably an understatement,
to hear a Prime Minister say that he believes that the people of the
country are more important than his political party and its beliefs,
you're saying aren't you?.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think that they are not inconsistent. I mean my first, and
I say unequivocally, is that the people are more important that the
party. There is no question about that. And I am in the fortunate
position, John, where I believe that a sensible application, a sensible
moderate. application of the philosophy and policies of the Labor Party
are consistent with the interests of the people. But if there ever
S came a point where I believed that the interests of the people of
Australia required that a particular point of policy not be implemented
then, then my view would be that the interests of the people came first
and I believe that the great majority of Labor people would support that
approach. LAWS: Yes, you have no guarantee that they would so what you have just said
is a very brave thing to say because what you are saying is if it came
toa point where you believe something to be right and the Labor Party
disagreed, you would prefer to stay with the people of Australia than
stay with the Labor Party?
PRIME MINISTER:
' I didn't, I mean you are now, and I understand you are having fun
and ( INAUDIBLE) you can finish up with a headline if you want to.
LAWS: ( Laughs) Well I don't want to disappoint them.
S PRIME MINISTER:
Oh no, well they are indebted to you, but you see I have been around for
a while John as you know. What I am saying is that the Labor Party
itself, I think the great majority of the Labor Party understands this.
I mean you have say a particular piece of a platform. Now you can have
circumstances where it was quite clear that tp introduce, act on that
piece of the platform at that time would be against the interests of
the community. So you don't do it then. Now what I'm saying is that
I believe that that sort of attitude which I have is one which the
Labor Party understands, the great maority of them understand, so I
don't think that this sort of position that you are trying to drarnatise
would arise.
LAWS: No don't say dramatise, I am trying to hypothesize.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hypothesize, yes, that's a lovely word.
LAWS:
Not quite as strong as dramatise.
PRIME MINISTER:
And you know I don't go down hypothetical paths too far, John.
LAWS:
No, not too far. So we're never really going to get an answer to the
question. If it was a toss up between the people of Austrlaia and the
Labor Government, who would Bob Hawke choose?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I have said that I think that a Labor Prime Minister, particularly
one as determined as I am about the welfare of this country is not going
to be really faced with a situation where the Party won't understand
what is required to be done.
LAWS: Well they'd be mad if they didn't.
PRIME MINISTER:
That is for others to judge, John.
LAWS: Mm. Can you ever ervisage a situation where you will totally wir over
the Left-wing or will they always be a bit of a thcrn?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if you look at the history of the Labor Party it has always had its
factions no more than the conservative parties, One time I would like
to come on and have a yard to you about the factionalism of the
conservative parties, but I think it is true to say that if. you look at
the Left in the Labor Party now, it is not monolithic John, and there
are certainly parts of the socialist left who look with great askance
with some of the observations of their more extreme elements. So I will
never be in a position where some of those more extreme elements will
love me or support what I am doing, but I think as you go steadily about
the business of trying to create a better Australia in which clearly
those who are in employment and those who are in business can improve
their wages and salaries, can improve their profitability and at the
same time are trying to do something for the underprivileged, when
people see that being done as I think we have already achieved in this
12 months. I think more and morepeople in the Labor Party will understand
that that is the way to go. You can't just focus on one particular
issue be a one issue Government or a one issue Party. You have got to
say that the basis of everything else is economic growth a more
profitable industry, a workforce which ' is going to be able to maintain
its real standards and improve its conditions. Those things are basic
to everything else. It is only when you do those things that you can
sensibly talk about creating a more equitable society doing things
for those who really can't help themselves. Now that is what Australians
want and that is what we're about.
LAWS: I think it is what Australians want and I think if they feel that their
tax dollar is being, and you and I have been through this a number of
times, is being spent wisely I don't think that they ever become
selfish or self-centred about the monies that they pay in tax providing
they believe that it is being spent wisely.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think that is a fair commentary. I think there was a period that we
went through in the end of the ' 70s and right there at the beginning
of the ' 80s where selfishness was almost made mandatory by Governrrmnt.
You remember we talked about this where we had the Fraser Government
saying to the unions well look we'll abandon wage fixation. Go out and
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PRIME MINISTER CONT'D:
grab or do what you can. Saying to industry well go and do what you
can. It encouraged the syndromo almost of the tax avoider seemei to
symbolise the society of " well damn you all, I am there to just g: rab
what I can" and there was a period where that happened but I think
you are right in saying that that's not the real Australia. I don't
think it is.
LAWS:
No I don't think it is but I do think it was an understandable period.
I do think that there was a period where the public felt that their
tax dollar was being spent inadvisedly. And I think people are going
to object to that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well people are entitled to object if they can see that their tax
dollar is being wasted or could be spent better, but I think for a
lot that that would be a way of rationalising what they were encouraged
to do in pursuit of their unbridled self-interest. I think it was very
unwise of Government to give this almost unqualified emphasis, John, to
go out and get what you can for yourself. Rather what consensus is
about, what I am trying to explain, is getting through to business and
getting through to the trade unions that their objectives are legitimiate.
It is legitimate for business to want to increase its profitability so
it can invest and create more employment opportunities. It is
legitimate for the trade unions to want to maintain and improve their
conditions. Now what we're about is trying to make them understand
that the achievement of those legitimate and mutually reinforcing
objectives is more likely if you work together rather than belting
your brains out and dissipating your resources fighting one another.
So it is an enlightened self-interest I think which makes Australians
understand that working together is going to be better for each of them
than just in a mindless way just going out and grabbing for your own
irrespective of everyone else.
LAWS: Yes I agree with that. And you maintain that consensus and conciliation
have brought around a change in that. I agree with that. It seems to
have worked in most areas. A couple of areas seem to be giving a bit
of a problem, one being the BLF.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, they behaved, in my judgement, abominably recently having given
their undertakings to the courts and to the Government, and most
particularly to their fellow trade unionists, then they didn't sLick
to that. Now it looks as though, as a result of discussions that the
ACTU have had with them, that they are going to act in accordance with
the rest of the trade union movement. Can I just make it clear that I
hope that is what happens. If it doesn't then I make it quite clear
that in conjunction with the ACTU an,_ qd will be brought to that
situation. As I say I hope it will be worked out by consultation.
LAWS: Do you get yourself into a situation where you talk across a table
like you are talking to me to people like Norm Gallagher?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well when I was in the ACTU I used to deal with him.
LAWS: What about now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well he was at the Summit Conference and it appeared from the Summit
i. nd on for most of ' U3 he and his union behaved like the rest of the
trade union movement. We had peace in the building indt. stry, very
substantially, and I can talk with people when they will discuss,
make a cormmitment and keep it. What I can't abide and will not abide
is people entering into undertakings and not keeping them. In that
context there is no room the-i to talk. Now as I say it looks as though
they have given an undertaking again. It had better work because if
it doesn't there won't be any more consultation.
LAWS: The reason I asked the question about Norm Gallagher sitting over the
desk from you, Norm Gallagher is not prone to talk, he won't talk to
me at all. Not even " Good day" to me. But I wondered if you two
ever had the opportunity to sit across a desk, surely a man with half
a brain, and I suppose we should credit him with that, must realise
simply by the look in your eyes, that you are fair dinkum, Because
I watched a total change come over your face when you talk about these
people digging their heels in and it is terribly obvious to me that
you are not about to abide it. Now why isn't it obvious to them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it has been made obvious. The Secretary of the ACTU,
Bill Kelty, who I think is one of
LAWS: I think he is one of the brightest light around,
PRIME MINISTER:
One of the truly great Australians., Bill Kelty, Now we have talked.
He knows my determination. He shares it because he realises that
it is not merely the authority and policies of the Government which
are at stake here, it is the authority and the integrity of the ACTU.
LAWS: They made an agreement didn't they?
PRIME MINISTER:
That's right. Now Bill Kelty has conveyed these feelings to the
Builders Labourers Federation and they understand that we've reached
the bottom line. Either the BLF is part of the trade union movernnt,
keeps it commitment and goes along with the trade union movement or it
doesn't. And if it doesn't then there'won't be any way in which into
the future the BLF will be part of the tr~ ade union movement.
LAWS: Will the BLF exist?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think it is not helpful at this stage, John, to as I say get
down the hypothetical path. I think I made it clear.
LAWVS: No, okay. I accept that, I hope he is smart enough to, But the point
is if a union, let me really be hypothetical for the benefit of the
listeners, if a union causes trouble and is dismissed from the ACTU
can that union continue to exist independently of the ACTU?
8
PRIME MINISTER:
In the past it has been able to bocause the ACTU has said " Alright
well then if there is a deregistration it has been brought about by
forces outside the trade union movement". What no single trade union
cat. tolerate is if the t; rade union movement and the Government say
you have divorced yourself from the w; hole stream of the trade union
movement. In those circumstances obviously other things happen,
LAS Other things that cause them not to continue to exist?
PRIME MINISTER:
Now you have had your one little essay down the hypothetical path.
LAWS: It was good though, wasn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. LAWS: So, back to the consensus and conciliation; we suggested it didn't
work as well as it might with the BLF, It didn't seem to work at
all with the doctors.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well John, with respect, that's not quite right. Let me say that in
the negotiations about Medicare Dr. Blewett, who I think has done a
very good job, has had discussions with the doctors and generally a
lot has been worked out between them. A position was reached by 1: he
end of last week where they were having still some problems and it
seemed as though it might be a good idea if I had a talk with the AMA
with Dr. Blewett. We did that quietly, with no publicity last Friday
and the AMA have had a meeting over the weekend. I don't know the
outcome yet but I'm hopeful that as a result of the talks T was able
to be involved in that that may be sorted out too. There's no point
in doctor-bashing or AMA-bashing. I recognise that they have had
concerns. It is not the sort of system that if they had their
( INAUDIBLE) that is why they would have. Generally speaking I think
they have recognised that the people have spoken on this concept.
They have tried to protect particular interests that they have got.
I think it is going to work out with their cooperation.
LAWS: Yes. PRIME MINISTER:
And may I say also that my old sparring partner, Joh, will probably
be signing the agreement this week I think.
LAWS: The cry from the doctors is, and I have had some talks with them, is
that they are convinced that you plan to nationalise health care.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that's absolute nonsense and not only is it wrong but there is
no evidence for it and I guess my standing in the community is wkell
enough for it to be sufficient to be said that that is not our intention
and we will not do it.
LAWS: Plan to nationalise anything?
PRIME MINISTER:
WVell the Constitution as interpreted by the High Court prevents it.
LAWS: Yes but Consitlitions have been changed.
PRItIE MINISTER:
Well then if the Constitution were changed it would be only because
the people changed it, If the people indicate a desire for that
course of action then it would be appropriate.. But look, let's get
it. quite clear, natinalisatition in. not n rnpv., er to the problems.
Who would want to nationalise the steel industry, for instance, What
would you want to nationalise? The secret of successful Gover-ment
in these increasingly complicated days is to make sure that those
things that need to be done by the public sector are done well. There
is much in this country that needs to be done by the public sector.
It needs to be done in a way which provides an infrastructure within
which the private sector can operate efficiently. There is nothing
intrinsically good about the public sector and nothing intrinsically
evil about the private sector. There is a necessity for each. There
is competence and there is incompetence in both. Now what the
Government has got to do, what a concerned Government has got to do,
is to make sure that you make the public sector as efficient and as
relevant as possible and to help the private sector to get rid of its
own inefficiencies which undoubtedly exist so that together in
cooperation we can maximise the vast resources of this country.
LAWS: So you believe that they have got to work together and that they can
and they will work together?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes they have got to and they can work together better than they
have in the past and I think what we've seen in the last 12 months
is a preparedness on the part of the private sector, and I welcoli; e
the positive response of the private sector,. They have been prepared
to sit down with us in Government, with the Public Service, and with
the trade unions and say well look what are the things together we can
do to. make for a better Australia. The steel industry plan; think of
that before we came in. We were on the edge of not having a steel
industry at all. Now that would have been intolerable. Now the
industry, the unions, the Government sat down together and now we've
turned that round completely. Ve have a viable, strong and increasingly
efficient steel industry where the private industry, BHP, has
committed itself to significant investment. The unions have cosmnitted
themselves to improve work practices and our Government has committed
itself to assistance. Now that's if you like a dramatic illustration
of what I am talking about. Getting the public sector, the private
sector, the unions sitting down and saying " look we are not here
wasting cur time talking about ideological issues of public and private
sector nationalisation. We are facing up to the realities of
Australian life and trying to make jtose realities work better. Now
that is what the Government is about.
LAWS: Yes. It all sounds too good to be true.
PRIME MINISTER:
But it works, that's not theory what I am talking about in the steel
industry, that's what happened.
LA\? S:
I know but people still won't cop it. People say ah yes but wait and
see what happens after the next election. They are being nice to us
10
LAWS CONT'D:
now but wait and see what happens afterwards. What have you got to
do to convince them? Stay there T suppose.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes well we will do that John.
LAWS: That's your intention.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. LAWS: It is a little more than a decada since the early days of the Whitlam
era and they were pretty heady sort of days. You were very close
to that from the outside. Is this Labor Government very different
from that Labor Government?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes it is very different and we have learnt from that period.
LAWS: Do you think he has?
PRIrlE nINISTER:
He reckons Paris is pretty good. He is able to make a great
contribution there and I think that Gough would understand what I
am just going to say now and that is that one of the problems for
Gough and the Labor Government was the time at which they came to
power, I think you have heard me say this before, that we had had
a generation then under Labor and then long-term Liberal Government
where we had full employment. The economy was just going along
easily, not dramatic growth but it was growing. Now Gough and Labor
. came to power at the end of ' 72. Within a few months of them being
in office they got hit with the oil crisis in the latter part of ' 73
and the whole world economy broke up into something infinitely more
difficult to handle. You had inflation burgeoning throughout the
world, oil prices going up, and the relations between the developed
and the undeveloped countries getting into an extraordinarily difficult
and complex relationship. Now the problem, the basic problem for
Goubh and the Labor Government then was that they didn't understand
that the economy wasn't just going to 1eep going on, growing automatically.
That it had really moved then into a situation that
required total concentration on economic management. They thought
well that is just going to go on and we can go about the business of
doing the other things that they were properly interest in. Now he
was very unlucky that he had come at that time, if he had come into
Government say 10 years earlier when those external forces weren't
destructing the total economic cituation he may have had a better ride.
LAWS: Did he make many mistakes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh they, he and they. made some mistakes, yes of course they did.
But basically the point I am making is that I think most of the mistakes
are attributable to the factor that I have just talked about, that it
was difficult to perceive that they were in Government then at a time
of dramatically changing economic environments here and externally
and that was a major problem. Having said all that, never let's
forget the great things they did, and not least of those great things
is something I have just witnessed. I have just come back from China,
a country of over a billion people, John. Almost a quarter of the
world's population, a country undertaking dramatic changes in their
11
PRIME MINISTER CONT'D:
economic and political philosophy. A country of vast importance to
the rest of the world. YTow there is no country to which China is
better disposed th-. n Aactralia and that is something of great benefit
to this country now and into the future and Australia owes a great
deal to Gough 1Vhitlam's vision then.
LAW7S: I wonder why people chocse to forget? They do.
PRIME MINISTER:
Some people do yes. I think the sensible thing to do is to try and
be as objective as you can about these things, to recognise mistakes
where they took place, but don't let's just think about mistakes,
let's recognise great achievements.
LAVS: I know you have got to be at Randwick at about 10.00 o'clock so we
haven't got a lot of time. I remember you once said that you wanted
to create the climate where people viewed Labor as simply the natural
ruling party, and I'm quite sure I am right wvith those words, the
natural ruling party. How close are you to achieving that?
PRIME MINISTER;
I think we're a lot closer than we were 12 months ag;. I think you
get back to some of the conversations we were having before John.
I think that there has been a view within the Labor Party and naturally
enough recipronated within the community that the Labor Party has a
rigid socialistic platform which talks about you must nationalise this,
you have got to go rigidly down a particular path, and that that's
the only way that you can provide good Government. Now I think that
we've, this Government, has brought people to understand that what
the Labor Party in Government in this extraordinarily complex world
is about. I emphasise that because you can't say it too often and
emphasise toomuch John that as we are coming to the end of this
century we are living in an unbelievably and increasingly coimplex
world where the impact of new technology is changing all our basic
assumptions, so many of them. Now what I think we are conveying to the
people is that we are aware of the complexities of this world. That
the application of no " ism" or philosophy or ideology to provide an
answer. What you have got to be about is trying to be aware of the
forces at work here and internationally and to try and get your people
and the organisations within our society cooperating in way which says
alright, we are aware of change, we are aware of the great challenges
that it imposes upon us, the opportunity it provides, and that what
the Government is about is to bring people together to try and make
sure that you maximise growth opportunities in those circumstances and
at the same time, as the Summit communique said John, to remember that
you must have an obligation to those who in these circumstances can't
really help themselves properly. Noy-~ hat's what I think we are getting
across. And it is right, I believe it is the right philosophy and the
extent that we are getting that across and that people are reciprocating
and cooperating with us, then I think we are closer to people saying
well that's the sort of Government, that's the sort of philosophy, we
want. LAWS: Yes. It would appear at the moment in NSWV they are not having such
a dream run.
-12
* PRIH~ E MINISTER:
No there is a bit of a problem but I Chir'k Neville Wran has made the
wise decision. Ile has said vell look, let's get tbe peop-e to
dccide. Let's have a short election oampaign.
LAWS:
W7e both know another fellow who tried that. ( Laughs)
PRIME 14INISTER:
A very different situatiocn ' there.
LAWS: A short run up to the election though just the sains.
PRIHE MINISTER:
Yes a short run. Well let me say I think the result will be quite
different. LAWS., Do you think that Neville is going to win?
PRIME ISINISTEfl:
Yes. LAP7S: Are you going to be throwing yotir hat in t; o take care of things u~ p
here a bit too?
PRIME MINISTER:-
I'll help certainly. NSVW is the largest, most important State. It has
been significant in Labor's development of Government since 1976. All
that is true but also I just want to say quite unequivocally that I
have known Neville Wran for a long time. lie is a man of integrity, of
honour, and of competence and I believe lie deserves our support and
he'll get it.
LAWS: Yes. I have exactly the same feelings about him. I worry a great; deal
about the talk of corruption within the Government and I believe Jt is
possible that there can be corruption within a Government but I would
find it very hard to come to terms with the fact that Neville Wran
the man himself is corrupt. In fact I can't take it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well he's not and It Is relevant to say that there have been threE
inquiries now into allegations in relation to NS17 and in one respect
with regard to Neville Wran a rVoyai Comnmissl" on into Neville ( ran,
complete exonneration. The Bottom allegations about a magistrate
complete repudiation, and withdrawal by Bottom. And Sinclair's
absolutely contemptible allegations al. A~ then denunciation of a judge
afterwards an independent inquiry '-complete exonneration. Now that.
doesn't mean, it obviously doesn't mean, John, that there mjay not be
problems in some,: areas, anDd I concede that there may be. But what I
am saying is that what has become the issue now I would suggest is Lot
just whether there are problems,-as there are I guess in most States,
the issue has much more become are we going to have a situa -tion xhere
unfounded allegations are going to be able to nso dominate the processes
of our society that the Government is going to be frustrated in being
able to go about its business.
130
LAIIS: Oka~ y, after the election ard assvrming that Neville will Nt. in th~ t
Clection, do you think that that'c going to shut the Opposition up?
PRU 11NISTER:
Viell I don't thinkc an Opposition should be shut up.
LAW'S: You've seemed to have shut one up.
PIIE MINISTER:
Yes well they haven't done a bad job themselves. Yes they are
pretty ineffective areu't they. X don't wan't to see an Opposition
shut up but I hope it will make therm take stool; of themnselves, it.
doesn't mean that if they have evidence, of wbat they think giVer
evidence of corruption or of s; ome short-coi-ing that they shouldn't
pursue it, but I thin)-, that one good feature ije that now out of these
that there will be a process in place after the elections
which will channel this into much more constructive ways of dealing,
with allegations. And people whlo rw,, ke allegations, John, are goin~ g to
have to be much surer than they have be:, en in the past otherwise the
rebound will be upon thein.
LAXUS: I'm Pleased to hear that.
PRIME MINISTER;
I think that's what will happen. But I certainly don't want to see
an Opposition "' ut up.
LAWS: I think you have shut one up.. you don't hear a giggle out of them.
But the problem is that Andrew can't say Pnything because he would
have done what you did anyway had he thought of it.
PRIME MINISTER:
IfL he had thought of it. But the real problem for our Opposition
now well one of them, I mean they have got a number of proble ms
but 1 think Andrew I me-an you referred to hiim I think he has5 tcon
extraordinarily unwise in embracing Mr. Sinclair. Mr, Sinclair is
literally incredible in our society today. His behaviour has been
monstrous and untenable and is recognised as such, Mr. Peacock wcu) A
have been mnuch wiser to do what the Nat~ ional Party did to the Liberal.
Party at the time of lMcEwan and 101cahon, they said thatt man is znt
acceptable, Now if Mr. Peacock had had the courage and tho good sense
t~ o do to them what they have previously done to the Liberal. Party he
would have been much better served. But he h Zs embraced the albatross,
LAV7S:
You don't think he has either?
PRIME MIlNISTER:
He has embraced Mr. Sinclair, he supports him, and he now has that.
albatross firmly implanted around his neck.
LAWIS: And as if he hasn't got enough worries without that, eh?
PRI14E MINISTER:
Well that was a gratuitous addition to his burdens. 1 am not sheddin~ g
tears but I think I can say I'd prefer to see a more effective
Opposition.
yesp well I know ycu'd -J. IPe the sport.
PRWtqE MINISTER.
Yes.
LAVIS: Okay, well I \ il practice tiy backhand, give you a call and we'll
have a game.
pntz mxiqisdu;. R:
Okay, righto John.
Thank yDu very mch for your timB.
PRIE INWISTER:
That's okay.
EKDS 16