I~' 17
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW BETWEEN PRIME MINISTER AND
DERRYN HINCH, 3AW 5/ 3/ 84
E. O. E. PROOF ONLY. ' r
HAWKE: Yes generally speaking Derryn that's right. I think we have
delivered on the major problems and the one that's basic to cverything
else and that is national reconciliation. Australia's a much better
country now it's more cohesive, less confrontationist society and
1. hat's at the foundation of the other good things that are happening.
HINCH: You said when you-came into office that your Government would
make mistakes, you've admitted at the National Press Club that one
mistake shall we say, was the wording and the handling of the Assets
Test legislation, what happens if this panel that you have anncunced,
if it recommends that there be no assets test legislation?
HAWKE: Well firstly let me-say that I don't believe that it would, but
if it were to do that obvioully we would have to look at it, but I
think really there is no argument with the great majority of Austraiar
that the concept of an assets test is right. That wasn't the issue, it
was the uncertainty that arose in the minds of a number of people who
would be covered, whether they might. be adversely affected and there
was also some concern about possible anomalies in the system
that was proposed. Now as I have said we have to accept some responsibility
for this uncertainty and I think what we will see as a result
of the committee of inquiry is an indication of the correctness of the
principle and hopefully I would thvnk as a result of those discussions
from such a broad representative group an indication of a more effectivc
and acceptable way of giving effect to the principle.
HINCH: But that would be one of the options that that panel could
come up with, say, that we don't believe in the assets test and. we
shouldn't have one.
HAWKE: Well you say that but I reject that there was any problera
because the community obviously have shared the view of Mr. Justice Hope
to comp'etely endorse the Government's handling of that issue.
HINCH: Well I might say that you did lose Mick Young for six nionths.
HAWKE: Yes and of course that was a loss but Mick is now back i: n the
Ministry and performing very well.
HINCH: With only one year in office but already there is a lot of talk,
you were on ' Sunday' yesterday morning on the Channel 9 show talking
about the possibilities of when an election would be held. When you
say it happened 22 times before and you quote all the examples, how
does that gel though with the things that, I think you had said, and
Mr. Hayden had said that criticising Malcolm Fraser for having early
elections? HAWKE: Well it um, in the case of Malcolm Fraser where it arose was
a situation where he had control of the two Houses earlier and made a
specific decision to go early and upset the pattern that had existed
in the past. Now all I am saying is in these circumstances that the
Constitution is there, we can't change that. Under the Constitution
there must be an election by the middle of ' 85 in the Senate which is
a general election that goes right across the country. Now what I'm
saying is that it would make sense it seems to me to have the
House of Reps early so that it can coincide with the one that must be
held to avoid having one election this year and another election next
year, but what we are also considering is putting at the same time
a referendum proposal which would provide for simultaneous elections
so that the people could be sure then that this was the last time you
were going to have a circumstance where you might be having unnecessary
number of elections.
HINCH: Could you give an assurance that if you hold an early election
and get things back into sync. that you would give a committment that
your second term of government would run its f'. Lll term?
HAWKE: Well I'm sure you could, and as I say the important thing
Derryn, would be if you passed the referendum proposal providing for
simultaneous elections, then that aspect of the problem is covered.
But obviously one of the, I think the problems of government in
Australia, is that we don't have long enough terms of office. I have
always felt that.
HINCH: I would agree with you. Even the length of time that ha been
given to you or to other governments, hasn't been used up. You have
got Veville Wran, whc not that long ago was saying that you have got
to get rid of the Russian roulette form of govermuents, of snap elections
being called, yet at the weekend he has called an election six months
early. HAWKE: Yeah well I agree with his decision there for the simple reason
I think that unless you. have been up here, Derryn, it's hard to get
the feeling of the impossibility of government that has been created
by this incessant resort to allegation, smear, inuendo and despite the
fact that where the inquiries have been held the allegations in each
of the three cases have been found to be unfounded. the Opposition
continues down this track and I think it needs to be cleared up.
HINCH: So you agree with them going early?
HAWKE: In these circiumstances, I think indeed that from the ereaction
that I've got from people they say, well we can uneerstand these
circumstances and clearly a segment of the media here is of that. view
that it is an appropriate course of action. Really Derryn Until. you,
unless you are in it you just can't understand how pervasive is'this
attack it's gone on and on and on well I don't think a government
is in a position where it can concentrate on government where it has
got to deal with allegations and where at every occasion where they
have been dealt with so far and followed up by investigations which
take -a long time, have been shown to be unfounded.
HINCH: But you see there are couple of points: One is that Nevelle
Wran by saying that you can't govern with this sort of thing going cn,
he's virtually saying that I can't govern, I've got 66 seats out of.
99 seats and I can't govern and he now he is going to appoint this new
Commissioner to look into things, he could do that without having an
election and he could push it all towards tie Commissioner.
HAWKE: I think he's going to give the people an opportunity of saying
whether they want this sort of proo~ s-s of opposition to be continued.
What you have got to remember here is that in* NSW you knock over
opposition leader after opposition leader after opposition leader,
now the normal processes of conducting an opposition have been
abandoned by these people here so instead of dealing with issues and
putting up alternative policies they have just concentrated on allegatioc
wild allegations against anyone that comes into their sights, and this
has just produced a situation now which has been compounded by the fact
that the judiciary has been attacked by their Vederal colleague, Sinclair
in the mcst horrendous way I c-an remember in th6 history of this
country. Now the whole system has been brought into question in this
way and I think government is entitled to say look,' you say whether
you really think whether this sort of thing is acceptable or niot. I
think it will very substantial'. y clear the air.
HINCH: Surely when, if Mr. Wran is re-elected and the opposition needs
an 11% swing to beat him, if he's re-elected and I assume he will be,
what is to stop, that's not-going to stop the allegations.
HAWKE: Well, two things about that Derryn, one, I think the opposition
will understand that they have played it badly, that people really
want a more constructive approach to opposition than that, and secondly,
I think it will mnean that there will be a much greater reluctance on
the part of * people to make baseless allegations, or allegations.' dhich
are founded simply on hearsay, that it will introduce a much more
astringent approach, so that we won't have a position where there is
not going to be a concern with the administration of justice and of
government. But that people are not just going to simply make wild
allegations, that they will-have to put up or shut up. It seems to me
that that's a sensible approach.
HINCH: Well some of the allegations have been made since last year and
in bi-elections since then there have been swings of between 10% and
14% against the Government and I wonder with Bob Hawke campaigning so
strongly for Neville Wran up there if there is a swing of that magnitude,
even an 8-10 swing, whether that will reflect on you and or clout,
your delivery power?
HAWKE: Well if I just make dfecisions'on the basis of how it is going
to affect my popularity or delivery power then that's one way of
conducting yourself, it's not the way I conduct myself, I see an
issue there where NSW is an important state, I see a position where
Neville Wran is a man I have known fkw a very long time, his integrity
and honour are something tha t T respect and about which I have no
doubt. He is under attack, his government is under attack. It is the
largest and economically most important state in Australia. It was
important in the beginning of the revival ; of the fortunes of the
Labor Party, now I'm not going to turn my back on that.
HINCH: No but there is things like the early prisoner release system
and thesf sort of arguments I suppose I should be talking to Premier
Wran . bout rather ; hat to you...
HAWKE: I would have thought so.
HINCH: Yes but you have tied yourself very tightly to the Wran
administration.
HAWKE: It is not a question of tying myself to the Wran Administ. rAt. ion.
I will say that the Premier and his government have done a very good
job. Noone, including the Premier, is going to be saying anything within
a government, within an administration there may not be some problems.
Let those problems be addressed by the proper judicial processes and
if it shows improper practices then let justice take its course. And
I certainly say that quite clearly. The processes have been set up
and you won't find me if those processes come out and say this is
wrong, that person has done something wrong. I won't be seeking to
defend that person or that situation, but what I will defend is this
Premier and the record of his government.
HINCH: Now this morning you have been launching Paul Kelly's book,
one that is a very good book, " The Hawke Ascendancy",
HAWKE: I'm about to do that.
HINCH: You are about to do that.
HAWKE: That means I'm going to have to leave you pretty soon.
HINCH! Alright,-Well before you go off to launch the book, all the
reviews about it, the excerpts that have been printed over the past
weekend which I'm sure you have seen, I know you saw the book before
it was printed, the headlines all say: things like, National Times,
" The inside story of how Hawke knifed Hayden". In his book himself
Relly refers to you playing a direct role in,, the assassination of
Bill Hayden. Now you recall after you got the leadership you attacked
Richard Carlton when he said how does it feel to have blood on your
hands and you got very upset about c does this give any sort of
credence now to what Carlton was talking about?
HAWKE: No it gives that individual no credence at all, I mean if you
want a person lacking in any sense of objectivity and impartiality
you have named him. No it doesn't, obviously in politics and there
has been no attempt on my part to disguise it, you have to talk with
people, you have to try and get numbers.. That of course happens and
we know the result but the point I was making that in the end as
distinct from blood on the hand. uthe opposite was true, that in the
end Bill Hayden took the view that the best initerests of the party
were served by the change taking place.
HINCH: On the heavy pressure of the Richardsons and the Bottons
HAWKE: pressure from Sen. Button, that's right. But in the end
there were two courses, Bill could have fought on I suppose and you
could have had a bloody battle in the Caucus, now that is not hat
happened and what annoyed ine about the individual that you mnentioned
on the ABC was that in fact it did very little justice to Bill Hayden's
decision because he took the Alternative course which he believed was
right and best for the party.
HINCH: What changed Sen. Button's mind to support you? Do you know?
HAWKE: You said before you should be talking to Wran about NSW, I
think you should talk to John Button about that.
HINCH; I will do that. I know you have to go Mr. Prime Minister,
but may I ask you one more personal question from your Canberra Press
Gallery, what are you going to do about the Press Gallery, are you
in favour of moving it into the rose garden?
HAWKE: No I'mnot in favour of moving it into the rose garden, it
won't be moving into the rose garden.
HINCH: Oh, well that will be good news that I can pass onto Canberra.
Thank you for your time. Bye bye.