INTERVIEW BETWEEN THE PRIME MINISTER AND RICHARD CARLETON
STATE OF THE NATION -28 AUGUST 1975
Q. Well, Mr Whitlam how's it affected your running of this
country having as you do the threat of an election hanging
over your head every day?
Prime Minister: I've got used to it. A year ago it would have been
very oppressive to me now we just go on regardless. And
you know we haven't been frozen in our tracks by this
constant threat, for instance, I think we are still a
very active, I think, creative Government... you know,
all these tax reforms, doesn't look as though we're just
looking for next month or next year.
Q. But if you were confident that you had two years ahead of
you would last-Tuesday's Budget have been the same paper?
Prime Minister: Yes, yes, it is on that basis because there can
be no swift change brought about in six months or twelve
months.
Q. Would you not last Tuesday week have brought in more
adventureous, less politically attractive tax proposals if
you could have been sure that you had two years before
the next poll?
Prime Minister: No, no. We wanted to bring in the tax changes
we did partly because we thought they were fair. Partly
because we thought that they would encourage people who
needed encouragement.
0. Do you think the uncertainty of the threat of an election
hanging over you all the time is causing the Westminster
system and our two party or three party system to be a
little less suitable for our day and age now?
Prime Minister: That may well be. There's no question, it is an
aberration to have a Government which is elected for three
years under our system under threat of having to face the
people every six months. This is an aberration and of
course it did last year hinder us quite a lot, but I think
we have got used to it and we are going on as if we have
until the middle of ' 77.
Q. How should the system be changed now in the long term so that
this shouldn't happen again?
Prime Minister: Well, one thing is, of course, that the Constitution
should be changed to requirethat whenever there is an
election for the House of Repyesentatives, there is also an
election for half the Senate. Thereby you bring home to the
Senators, a sense of responsibility. If they decide there is
to be an election for the other House then half of them have
to face an election themselves too. The evil of the present
System is that you can have people deciding there's an election
even although the people making that decision don't have
to face the people themselves. If you synchronise the
elections for the two Houses that will be a very great
improvement a great safeguard.
Q. Mr Whitlam, when things go wrong in the Labor Party and
goodness knows you've had your fair share of troubles
since you've been Prime Minister. When they go wrong,
do you sometimes despair and wonder whether it's worth
all the effort you're putting into it?
Prime Minister: of course.
Q. When was the last time that you've had one of these'downs'?
Prime Minister: I don't know. I'm pretty resilient. I recouperate
fairly quickly. But of course, I and my wife too
sometimes wonder ' is it worth it' but we always decide it is.
Q. Are you a moody person? Some of your colleagues one talks
to around the Parliament say oh, don't go near him
today, he's in such a damn bad mood, sort of thing..... he'll
bite your head off.
Prime Minister: I will bite peoples heads off that's true.
But I get over it very quickly. I'm not a brooding or
vindictive person. I will flare up, sure, but it's soon
over.
Q. But what about moody for a week....
Prime Minister: No, I don't think I'm moody. I sometimes maybe
pensive.
Q. Pensive?... Is the Cabinet system as you've got it now, is it working
well? I mean in those Cabinet meetings that you've had
there are you getting an exchange of views amongst your
Ministers now-a-days?
Prime Minister: It is improving. Obviously they are better than
when they first came in. The Ministry is very much better
as a result of the changes that I made the first
significant changes I made since we got in a thousand
days ago. The 4-hanges I made in July. Now the Minist . y
is very much better as a result of that. We wouldn't have
been able to get so good a Budget as we'vye produced but for
those changes.
Q. But though, you would like this Parliament to run another
two years, three years from...
Prime Minister: Of course it should*.
Q. But in terms of real -pol-itik to use that hackneyed phrase
that it is turning out to be, how long do you really think
the Parliament will run?
3.
Prime Minister: I think it will probably run, I think the chances
are better that it will run till the middle of ' 77 than it
will run only to the middle of ' 76.
Q. Why, do you think Mr Fraser won't have the guts to pull it
on next year?
Prime Minister: No, I don't put it in that way, I'm-not wanting to
have any of that sort of confrontation or brinkmanship.
Malc olm Fraser has got, I think, a better sense of propriety
than his predecessors as leader of the Liberal Party
I think that he looks a bit further ahead because he would
hope to be a Prime Minister himself someday and he would
know that two can play at this game and things can be bad
politically or economically as they have been economically
since we've come in everywhere in the world and a Government
can be deterred from doing the right thing by the fear
that it may have to face the people in the next few months.
I think we've got over that fear a year ago, it's true
enough that we were oppressed by this idea that there might
be an election again at the end of ' 74, there might be in
the middle of ' 75, but we got over that and I think we now
think that the better, the more successful course is to
go for the long haul, you just can't get a quick solution,
you won't get support for trying for a quick solution.
Q. You said two can play at this game does that mean that
you've gone back on your earlier undertaking that you'd
never knock back supply...
Prime Minister: No I haven't, I haven't, that is very strongly
my riew I would still say that if for instance the Labor
Party was in Opposition and I was in the Parliament, I
would still think it improper to use a majority you had in
the Senate or half the numibers because that's all you needhalf
the numbers in the Senate to refuse supply. I had
a big battle in Caucus on that in 1967 I won it and it
is till my view but quite frankly, if Supply was refused
by the Senate a second time, it would obviously be very
much more difficult to keep one's colleagues to the proper*
course thereafter.
0. Your expectations a probability I'm putting words intov your
mouth, I suppose, but the probability is in your mind th't
Supply next year will go through.
Prime Minister: I believe that is probabi x
Q. Sir, with hindsight, Mr Barnard's resignation was that a
mistake politically.
Prime Minister: Ah oh yes, it was obviously in the light
of the result yes.
Q. What about your going overseas last Christmas again with
the benefit of hindsight, was that a mistake politically?
Prime Minister: No, I would do it again, it was time that a Prime
Minister visited countries which-are so economically important
4.9 9,
to us and from which so many migrants have come. I know I
had a terrible blast and the polls were bad but look after
the Terrigal conference, look after the deposition of
Mr Snedden we soared the electorate is very volatile
and I will do what I think is the right thing and one of
the things that a Prime Minister has to do is from time to
time, make overseas visits nobody can represent his
country as effectively as a Prime Minister.
Q. Can. I suggest to you, though, Sir, that because you went on
that trip and the tag is now attached to you -Whitlam
the tripper overseas and that sort of thing -are you
going to have to wear that and wear the effect of it
electorally.
Prime Minister: Maybe I will, and I shall and I don't mind it was
my duty to go. It was time that a Prime minister did visit
some of those countries I mean, we had got on the wrong
foot throughout the 1960s with every member of the Common
Market it was about time that somebody went from Australia
and showed a cooperative attitude.
Q. You haven't committed yourself as to whether or not you'll
be going away this Christmas.
Prime Minister: No, but if I do go, obviously it has to be at a
time when Parliament is not sitting which means one goes at
Christmas or in mid winter.
Q. Would you like to go away again this Christmas?
Prime Minihter: I'd like to, of course, but no arrangements have
been made. If I think I should I shall.
Q. No one would accuse you of being lazy in the job but can
I ask you to ponder on the question of whether or not
you spend your time efficiently, spending as you do,
so much time tripping around Australia giving these
learned discussions and learned papers to these miniscule
audiences in such out of the way places -there's
tomorrow er, where are you going, up to the north coast
of New South Wales, Murwillumbah?
Prime Minister: Yes I am, but I'm not giving a lecture and it won't
be a miniscule audience what happened is, I've been
asked months ago, I was asked if I'd open the new Civic
Centre in Murwillumbah well why not I don't suppose
a lot of people are yet accustomed to the idea of a Prime
Minister arousing interest in local government circles well
my Government has shown a very great interest in local
government, so I've been asked and I'm free to go, and I'll
get pleasure out of it and I would guess that the public
around there will show some interest in it, or even pleasure.
Q. Surely there's more electoral kickback for you that's the
business you're in, of winning votes there's more kickback
for you if you get out on the stump in Sydney or Melbourne
to a big crowd.
Prime Minister: But I do constantly it's true that I would have
been to the outback to remote places, not that Murwillunibah's
terribly remote it's only about an hour and a quarter from
here by air, but it's true that I would have been to
these places more than any other person who's had this
job but after all most of my engagements of course are in
Sydney and Melbourne. And if I give a learned address
as I did last night in Canberra or as I did a fortnight
ago, in Melbourne there'd been hundreds in Canberralast
night a thousand in Melbourne. Sure I put quite a lot
of Work into it but they were important occasions, important
subjects and I'll use the research that I put into it on
these two occasions to other purposes. I know, but you can't
be on the job the whole time, and I can't get any great
relaxation going to a bowling club or that because people
will always say I don't want to talk shop, BUT now I
might as well go where I enjoy it, to some of these
country towns and I've had some excellent days there and I
enjoy it and they seem to.
Q. In politics as in everything else, everyone loves a winner
but do you feel in your own Caucus now that there's a
fair bit of criticism of you in the way you're handling
the job.
Prime Minister: Oh I suppose there is but they seem to be fairly
satisfied that I'm a satisfactory person to lead them.
Q. Only fairly satisfied you're not...
Prime Minitter: Well, you'll think I'm terribly egocentric if I
exgressed the view which I believe they hold of me.
Q. What are your relationships with...
Prime Minister: After all a great number of them wouldn't be there
but for me and they think the best chance of augmenting their
numbers is with me now does that satisfy you?
Q. How does it satisfy the Caucus might be another question.
Prime Minister: Well they've wt shown any dissatisfaction.
. Mml'
Prime Minister: But they're entitled to I welcome, I mean if anybody's
got a complaint about me I'd rather them tell me even in a
Caucus meeting than to bottle up about it.
Q. What are your relationships now like with Mr Rupert Murdoch?
Prime Minister: I haven't seen him for a couple of months actually.
0. Last time you saw him was it-a friendly meeting or...
Prime Minister: Yes, yes always, yes.
Oh, he's a would be politician so like all politicians, we
learn to dissemble.
6.
Q. A would be politician...
Prime Minister: Well, I think that one of the shortcomings of
the media in Australia is that people that run the newspapers
would in fact like to run the country I mean there's
some sad desicated characters like Warwick Fairfax
there are some thrusting ones so far frustrated like
Rupert Murdoch.
Q. What, frustrated because he's not running the country?
Prime Minister: Yes.
0. I see. Sir, you've often expressed your admiration
of the Public Service in many speeches but are some areas
of the Public Service letting your Government down?
Prime Minister: Oh, I wouldn't say that the Public Service is
a superbly competent dedicated lot of people I mean I
know I see the permanent heads and the second division
people and the hours they work and the ideas they come
up with, the way they'll respond to a lead is remarkable.
I think we have done a very good job as a Government a
whole range of issues right basic changes and reformswe
couldn't have done any of them without the assistance
of Public Servants.
Q. Sir, would you rate the State Premiers on a scale between
more uncooperate and the most cooperative.
Prime Min~ ster: Oh, all of them are uncooperative when they beli eve
it suits them.. every one of them. Now I haven't graded
them all I must confess I've got through a few since I
was there.
Since I came in there's been a change of Premier in Western
Australia and in Tasmania and in New South Wales.
Q. Sir, what are the expectations...
Prime Minister: I mean you want me to give a gquite obviously
ah, Mr Dunstan and I have achieved most in cooperation
because Mr Dunstan saw the wisdom and he has benefited
from it in cooperating promptly with the initiatives th'at my
Government has taken in the whole range of activities. 2.-'
Q. Sir, one of the expectations I suggest that a lot of people
placed in you when you came into Government was that you do
away with a lot of the featherbedding and the sectional
interest influence over the process of Government. Things
that came up in the Combes' report the superphosphate
bounty things like that. Now, has the actual system of
Government the two party system and your Caucus system
prevented you from being as thorough in this area as you
would have like to have beeun?
Prime Minister: Oh, of course, it has oh yes, we haven't been
as thorough and as fully rational as we wanted to, and
particularly a year ago there was a loss of morale and
People started handing out hundreds of thousands or in some
cases millions, to prop up industries or particular
companies which had, without justification as it turned
out. At least we did it openly when we gave money
to A. P. P. M., I said well at least put it in an Act of
Parliament don't conceal it. I'm not particularly keen
about it, but if the Opposition is against it, make them
stand up and defeat it well of course they didn't.
Q. We'll just end now, but just to end on, how's Mr Fraser
been going as Opposition leader?
Prime Minister: Magnificently in the media.
Q. How do you think you'll go against him in the...
Prime Minister: I mean in the newspapers in the newspapers
I'm not suggesting in the electronic media Oh, I think
he'll be pretty heavy going in an election you know,
I think it's been shown since the Budget you know, his
first reactions were quite off key to the Taxation reforms
which are the biggest things which have happened in this
field for a quarter of a century he got off on the wrong
foot completely he showed his hand -he showed that
he was still the elitist and still the dyed-in-the-wool
conservative.
Q. Do you think you can beat him?
Prime Minister: Yes give me a campaign and I'll beat him or anybody
else the Liberals put up.
Q. Wall, Mr Whitlam, thank you for appearing on STATE OF THE
NATION tonight.
Prime Minister: Thank you.