EMBARGO: 8.00 PM
INTERVIEW WITH PRIME MINISTER BY FOUR CORNERS ( AA' 11TO3ADI1
NOVEMBER 1974
HOGAN: Prime Minister, after two years in office, what single
act or piece of legislation do you think is the Labor Governments
probdest achievement?
PRIME MINISTER: The two pieces, I would think, would be the
Grants Commission which has made it possible to do things for
the Capitals and the big provincial cities, and the Schools
Commission, which has given people a good start at school.
HOGAN: On the other hand, what do you think are Labor's
biggest disappointments and failures?
PRIME MINISTER: The fact that we have come to office at a
time of world-wide inflation.
HOGAN: Why is that disappointing to you?
PRIME MINISTER: It was something that nobody expected to be so
serious and it is something where, of course, every country
like us all the trading countries, all the industrialised
countries, the-whole of: the world is embroiled at the one time;
all with the same problems and all infecting each other.
HOGAN: Is there any need though, for Australia'Is rate of
inflation to be as high as it is?
PRIME MINISTER: It's probably inevitable. Everybody has COPPedIit.
I mean, two years ago there wasn't a single western country
which would have expected to have the problems of inflation
and Lnemployment which every one of them is experienrinqj tow.
HOGAN: YL we are, say, ahead of tvest Germany, aren't in the
inflation rc.-e and we are not, like they are, dependent on
imported oil or minerals, where to a certain extent we are
self-sufficient in those areas. Could we hope that ouinflation
rate could be made to be :-little lower, do ,,' ou
think by government n'anagement?
PRIME MINISTER: I hope we can get it down. We are trying evcry.
meai., we have; we examine what every other country is doing.
West ' Zermany's unemployment, of course, is much w, -se D~ ii-s
about twice as bad as ours in percentage termTS. _. eir inflatio.:
is not as bad as ours. But there again, two years ago i.-i
West Germc--y. the unemployment and inflation that they ha" 1
would have absolutely incredible and in-tolerable. ' Chat
we all have it.
HOGAN: Would it be fair to say though, that inflation has to
a certain extent robbed the average Australian of t1l. benafifor
the alleged benefits of the Government?
PRIME MINISTER: of some of the benefits, but nevertheless the
average incomes in Australia have gone up much more in the las'
two years the years that we have been in than have prices.
The incomes have gone up over those two years, I think, by
about 7 per cent more than the prices. So on balance, people
are all better off in Australia but not as much better off as
we had hoped. That is, just going on incomes and prices.
But where we have made a very great difference is in provi li
things free, at public expense, for everybody. Govui: nacr
services have Lb-een very greatly improved as a resuli of t wc
have done.
HOGAN: Has that in itself been a cause of the inflation do
you think?
PRIME MINISTER: Only infinitesimally. It might have had some,
but the point is that if we had done none of those things, if we
had abandoned all our proposals for making better use of our
resources or better opportunities for our citizens, we would still
have had a rate of inflation which, a couple of years ago, would
have been regarded as incredible and intolerable. It is no
solution, say, to just postpone our program.
HOGAN: Yet it would seem that many people in Australia today
think that the rate is incredible and intolerable. A poll this
week, for example, suggested that 7 out of every 10 Australians
don't think you have been effective in controlling inflation.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we haven't been able to keep it down as
we would have liked. But what I think Australians in general
realise is that there in no Head of Government no government
anywhere in the western world which has what we would have
regarded in the past as a tolerable record in this regard;
all of us.
HOGAN: You have made some Cabinet changes in recent weeks or
they are to take place shortly.
PRIMt. MINISTER: One, I have made one change in over a year.
HOGAN: 2. fairly important one. Do you think that this change,
the rep];, ' ent of Mr Crean by Dr Cairns would have a dramatic
effect on ii. lation or by cutting the rate of inflation?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't say that anything has a c
No, I don't say that, and I don't wc., c to givw any imprcss.
that what has been happening in Australia can he uickly cuc:
or can be cured in isolation. We are too big a t'ding country
proportionally we are one of the most dependent of all countries
on t;, ade we just can't isolate ourselves. T1.: e won'" h,
anyt. i , g dramatic but I do believe that there w. 1-' ae an
improv. mc t.
HOGAN: i{ a-you any cause now to regret; the h-ndli: 2g of E C:
reshuffle, ti,. lismissal of Mr Crean from the Treasury?
PRIME MINISTER: No. Do ynu mind if I use my terms: exchanging
the portfolios that Dr Cait.. f and Mr Crean had. T would h-e
liked it to have happened more quickly but the news . tckc: r out
when Dr Cairns was overseas and thej . vhen he came bac, tkL.
proprieties dictated that I should discuss it with the Gr. vernor
General, and he was in Tasmania for a couple of days, so T couldn't.
do that.
HOGAN: Was it not possible in that period and it was a very
long period while the leaks continued that Mr Crean may go: were
you yourself responsible for any of those leaks?
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PRIME MINISTER: None whatever and no-one associated with
There was no atom of benefit for iiie in those leaks occu--ng.
None whatever.
HOGAN: Do you think that Mr Crean was treated badly by the
affair?
PRIME MINISTER: I think the media were quite cruel to him.
HOGAN: In a sense, though, could you have taken the pressure
off by making some sort of statement in that long period....
PRIME MINISTER: No, I will not do it. I will not respond to
questions whether somebody is going to have some appointment or
if I am going to make changes. Once I yield on that I will
be asked every day whether somebody is going to have another
position. HOGAN: Do you think it appears in restrospect that Mr Crean
has taken the blame for the management of the economy which
perhaps should have been shared by the entire Cabinet?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course, any blame that there is, any credit
that there is, is shared by us all. And Mr Crean must accept it:
any blame, his share; he is entitled to credit, any credit.
There is no suggestion whatever that Mr Crean has not acted as
the Government decided.
HOGAN: Will you yourself now be taking a more active role in
control of the economy? There is some speculation that you
have been sitting back, letting other ministers have a stronger
say in the economy than yourself.
PRIME Y". VTSTER: I'll be more directly involved, yes.
HOGAN: In h-t way?
PRIME MINISTER: I'll be more fully and regularly brief ed
I have taken steps to see that statistics and ii. dices ares
comprehensively compiled and more promptly analysed.
HOGAN: After two years in Government do you think Lhat it is
a ki: late to be making those changes, could yoai have n ot seen
that arlier?
PRIME AINISTER: In retrospect that is right. Nevertheics
our stat.. -~ al information, our assessments, have not b,', en
adequate in tralia. You can blame us for the last tuo ye'
You can'tC blame for 25 years before that.
HOGAN: But we can blame you for the last two years?
PRIME MINISTER: In retrospect, obviously. It could have been
done quicker: Mr McMahon is now saying that too. But he didn't
do it when he was Prime Minister. We are all wiser now.
HOGAN: One thing that the Cabinet exchange highlights was perhaps
the difficulty you have in selecting ministers. Would you like
to see any change in the system whereby the Labor Party elects
its Cabinet?
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PRIME MINISTER: No, none whatever. I suport , his system -nd
I continue to support it. I believe that the best way get
harmony in a political party is for all members of thr olitical
party to have their say in determining who will nold cf7ice in it.
I've always supported that and I will continue to support it.
HOGAN: Does it mean that perhaps there are young and able men
in the Labor Party who you aren't able to elect to Cabinet because
of the Caucus decision as to how Cabinet is elected?
PRIME MINISTER: Maybe. I don't, on the other hand, suggest that
any political leader should be able to make his own personal
and maybe capricious choice. I have influence in these things,
naturally, but I am happy with the system. I don't want anybody
to have the impression that I would change that system. I would
not change that system. I believe that the whole of the Party
that is all the Labor members of Parliament, the Caucus should
have an equal say in determining who will be the Ministers and
that the leader the Prime Minister should have the
responsibilities of saying what portfolio each Minister should
have. HOGAN: Prime Minister the level of unemployment in Australia is
now at its highest since the depression. Is that tolerable under
a Labor Government?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I don't think it is tolerable under any
government and we have taken steps to reverse that.
HOGAN: Is the situation going to get worse before it gets better?
' RIME MINISTER: In the next couple of months it will probably get
wo e. This is, of course, the time of the year when the
nuiler of people seeking jobs is always the greatest. So the
figure, will not look good.
HOGAN; h, uch worse could it get?
' PRIME MINISTER: I won't speculate.
HOGAN: Could it
PRIME MINISTER: The statistics frankly are not cJoc-enough ñ or
me to speculate. The statistics tlat can. e o; it thtree weeks ago
cEL' tit everybody by surprise, everybody. Now may b, a
def.ø icy in the statistics.
HOGAN: '" at can be rectified, do you think?
PRIME MINISTEi. I hope so. I am certainly haviig this exaxm-Li
The statistics avi; 1a!,. ' o the Government, the official
. statistics in matters lix. inemployment and liquidity, h; ve
been adequate and I am taki. I-to see that tl e
are improved. About four weeks a. ook similar &: tac
that statistics on imports were improved.
HOGAN: Are you worried about the reaction of the trade union
movement to the unemployment situation? Mr Hawke . this week L. is
been saying that he will be speaking to you next week about the
need for stronger measures to prevent unemployment.
PRIME MTNISTER: I regard the rEac: iun of the tradu uuio;' Lo
unemployment as completely predict& ble and completecy p. . er.
Some of the suggestions that the trade union moveraent makes
or some sections of it, I believe, are ill-founde,:.
HOGAN: Could unemployment bring down the Government?
PRIME MINISTER: It could bring down any government. There is
no Government in the Western world which is secure; none whatever.
HOGAN: Are you worried that it could bring down your Government?
PRIME MINISTER: I have to be worried about this but I am quite
satisfied that at an election I would win.
HOGAN: Do you see your change in tariff policy or import quotas
as likely to affect the unemployment situation?
PRIME MINISTER: They have a marginal effect. They have more than
a marginal effect in some industries. But it is nonsense to
suggest that the unemployment in Australia has been caused by
our more rational approach to protection. That might have affected
some industries, but it is garbage to say that it has been
responsible for the unemployment. Some trade unionists have said
this; some of them, worse still, have said it in collaboration
with employers, including overseas companies. Their attitude
they are entitled to express it but it is my duty to correct
them when they exaggerate or distort the position. The unemployment
in Australia is primarily due now to the fact that people are
pricing themselves out of jobs.
HOGAN: They are pricing themselves out of jobs.
PRIME M: NISTER: Yes, the people can't afford employers can't
afford employ people at the rate of increase in wages whJ,'-
is taking this year.
HOGAN: Well this is perhaps something that The trade uni
movement might be expected to take: an active role in in
restraint. Do you s-' e the need for wage restraint?
PRIME MINISTER: Certainly I do.
HOCA Are you getting all the co-operation that ln-i eei from
the t. ad! unions in that area?
PRIME MINY-TPR: We are getting a great deal of co-operac-ion
and this is, course,. one of the things which we regularly
discuss. Any mL. tings that I have with Mr Hawke are always
well publicised. I have -etings with a very great number of
people too; they aren't p. cised. But obviously this is
something which Mr Hawke and -r and some othi--fic>.
from time to time, of the ACTU discu s with me and seniior colñ ø s
and we believe that we are likely to secure restraint. The way
we are doing it, of course, is by putting to the Arbitration
Commission that it should take into account the very great tax
reductions which we aremkin._ and that it should regard those
tax deductions as compensation for any increase in prices, in
the present quarter.
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HOGAN: And yet only this week it would appear from newF~ aper
reports that you personally approved an increase of 24 per cent
in pilots' salaries.
PRIME MINISTER: I didn't. The attitude that I support is that
employers, including TAA, should be able to pass on to their
customers any increases due to increases in salaries which have
been made in Industrial Awards. Now anything that employers,
including TAA, pay above awards, they have to take out of their
profits. HOGAN: But was that not a inflationary settlement, an increase
of 24 per cent?
PRIME MINISTER: I think so. I don't think TAA should have done
it but I don't believe that a Government or any Minister can
effectively take over the day-to-day running of something such
as TAA or Qantas or the Commonwealth Bank: any of these
Government enterprises.
HOGAN: Are you in effect saying that you are powerless to stop
., inflationary wage increases like that?
PRIME MINISTER: We have taken action by submissions to the Prices
Justification Tribunal to ask them not to approve price increases
which are due to over-award wage settlements and my Minister
for Transport, Mr Jones, has made it plain that TAA and Ansett
cannot pass on to people flying by air the settlements which
they have made in excess of what Mr Justice Coldham awarded.
S HOAN: To take another area, Prime Minister, and that's the
rural sector of the economy. The man on the land claims that
he is being deprived socially and economically by the Labor
Govern t. Have you any sympathy with that point of view?
PRIME MINIS. 7_: The point of view is incorrect. The way t,
some people distort what the Government has done, I car,
many people in the country having th. at view. The fact i.
there is better hope now for most people whc live in tht.. Lr.
and most of them lie in country towns than * Wr, Defore. Life
in country towns will be very much ow'e varied and attractive
thai it has ever been this century, as a resullt of initoaLives
by i Government. Now what we have d'one is, , e rnted t) s,
tha. V'-. re governments give assistance through i -:, ar. ion
or thioagh subsidies for primary production, naC-t that 2: sis,.>-
goes * o the people who need it most. Secondly, we wantri ;-o
ensure , here primary producers produce more than Austra'
themselves ca.. consume, they are able to rely on long-term t
agreements with other cr-lntries. There has never been a govern'.
which has achieved so ma. trade agreements with other countr-c..
as my Government.
HOGAN: We have talked about the worker, we have talked dbout
the man on the land, what about the businessman? What . as he
got to thank Labor for for the last two years?
PRIME MINISTER: He knows that the Government operates very much
more openly than previous Governments. That if he wants some
benefit from a Government, then he can make out a case and it will
ibe looked at and the reasons given. There is no behind-the-door or
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under-the-counter deals. We have stated our principles, we have
established bodies to report on all these things. And business
people have shown their respect at least for the way we have gone
about things.
HOGAN: If not enthusiasm?
PRIME MINISTER: That's right. But there have never been so
many businessmen who have been willing to advise a Federal
Government, as there have been willing to advise my Government.
And they have been willing to do it because they realise that
whether they agree with us or not, whether their views which we
have sought are palatable to us or not, those views will be
made public and the public will know what the advice is. And
. usually, usually we accept that advice.
HOGAN: Are you aware of real hostility from the business
community to the Government?
PRIME MINISTER: No. I imagine that I would know most of the
important, responsible businessmen in Australia and I think
they realise that they can express their views to me and I
will welcome those views and our personal relations are perfectly
cordial. Now what I would like to put is that you can't quote
any substantial experienced responsible business leader, any
managing director or chairman of directors of any substantial
enterprise, any general manager or chairman of directors....
HOGAN: Perhaps the Chairman of Ampol would disagree with you
about the operation of the Prices Justification Tribunal?
PRIME AINISTER: I don't remember him saying anything about it.
But I v. iJ be dining with him tonight. I have known him for
many year-', I respect him and as far as I can see, he respects
me. But have very good relations. The fact is, you don't
get expeiiehi -d or substantial leaders of the business commrunity.
directors of c .? anies, general managers of companies who have
gone on public record in criticism of my Government.
HOGAN: Turning to the immediate evens of tniz week, Prime ster,
we have seen a struggi.. for the leadership of the Liberal Party.
Would you have preferred to have seen Mr Fraser win that battle?
PRIM! INISTER: It doesn't help any of the caindida. es and
Mr Sne and Mr Fraser are not the only candidate, for the
leadersh. of the Liberal Party if I say whom L * ould like tc
see there. There are some people whom I would like to set . herc
from the na. L oolitical point of view, ones that wouldn'. coev
successfully, s_ with fije. There are others
HOGAN: Do you think Mr Se. competes successfully with you?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I don't th: But there are rth s
who I would like to see there in the contingency of a c'anqe ol
Government. It doesn't help. I have on one or two occasions
in the past suggested whom I thought to be the best alternatives
on that side of politics and it embarrasses the people I have
named and of course, they feel bound to react to disprove it or
to disprove my kind words.
HOGAN: You have been in power now for two years, will you still
have the same job in two years?
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PRIME MINISTER: I believe so.
HOGAN: We will have to wait to see what the electors have to
say about that.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, they might not have the opportunity in two
years. I expect two and a half years and I think they will
re-elect me.
HOGAN: Thank you Prime Minister.
I C