TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW V
BROADCAST 9.3Oam NOVEMBER 18 ON 4BC
BETWEEN HAYDN SARGENT ( HTS:) AND THE PRIME MINISTER.
( Recorded Friday November
HS: Prime Minister, Mr Hawke said last night that he anticipated
that next year would be the worst year the world and Australia
had experienced since the great depression.
PM: I think he's right. I think the figures for the next
few months are going to be quite bad here and in every comparable
country, western Europe, North America, Japan.
HS: He says that he thinks maybe the western world has got
to rethink its attitudes towards production, distribution of
wealth, do you think that that's the way to solve the problem?
PM: I think the western world has to sort out its priorities
much more, there's no doubt about that. It has tak~ en some things
too much for granted, some things at home,* some things in other
parts of the world upon which it depended, such as the oil-producing
countries, but that will take quite some time to do.
But for the next few months, things will be very disappointing,.
in all economies like ours, all countries'like ours.
HS: You say for the next few months yes so I anticipate
you're seeing some kind of a pick-up somewhere along the line.
PM: Yes, I've said that I think we will have turned the corner
by the middle of next year.
HS: What do you think it will have been that will make us turn
the coi. Ac
PM: I believe the biggest single problem we have in Australia,
and just as the biggest single problem in the other countries
too is the cost inflation now. The fact that incomes are rising
even faster than prices. Now the Australian Governement has come
out with a proposal which ought to break that vicious circle of
wages chasing prices and prices chasing wages. We have proposed'
I hat there should be very considerable decreases in taxes, with
the consequence that the take home pay, the net take home pay
for people in general will be considerably higher. These tax
reduct. ions which I announced on behalf of the government last Tuesday
mean that a man, say on $ 100 taxable income, that is, taking away
the deductions that he has for his dependants and for his medical
expenses and so on, would have the equivalent of an 8% increase
in his income. A man on $ 150 taxable income.. would have an increase
of about 6% in his net income. He would take home as much as'he'd
take home as if his wages had increased by 8% and 6% and this will
mean that we believe that the Arbitration Commission can be
persuaded to say that the increase in prices in this December
quarter will have been compensated for by the reduction in taxes.
The Arbitration Commission will therefore, in our argument, say
there is no need to increase awards for-wage and salary earners
to account for increases which occur in prices in the December quarter.
The increases in prices in the December quarter will have been
compensated for by a drop in taxes. That means, thereafter, from
the March quarter onwards, we are asking the Commission to index
wages so that any increase in prices will automatically. produce
an increase in wages.*-
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HS: Now that's good in theory Prime Minister, but what about
the Trade Unions? Those who have already said, we are not
committing ourselves to co-op'erate.
PM: Well,* you quoted Mr Hawke before. Mr Hawke has commuitted
himself to co-operating. And after all, the arguments before
the Arbitration Commission will be put by the ACTU on behalf of
the unions and Mr Hawke is their president and the argument will
also be put by the Australian Council of Salaried and Professional
Associations, ACSPA, and by the Commonwealth Council of Public
Service Organisations, COPSO. This means that the blue collar,
the white collar, the public service unions, will all be putting
an argument. Its true enough, you know how some of the papers
are, if anything comes out, they make phone calls round for
everybody to make a comment. and they publish the comments which
express reservations. But the people who express those reservations,
won't be making submissions to the Commission. They won't be
giving evidence to the Commission. They will be ~ involved in a
collective submission made by the ACTU and ACSPA and CCPSO.
After all the Commission doesn't make up its mind from what it
reads from a selective group of telephone calls. It makes its
mind up on the basis of arguments put to it.. by employers and
employees and governments.
HS: And yet we've seen a number of trade unions that have
been I think to use Jack Egerton's word, irresponsible.,
PM: Yes we have, in the past, I do believe, irresponsibility.
Thanks largely to leaders like Jack Egerton who are prepared to
give a lead they have moderated these excessive claims very
largely in the last few months. Of course the biggest problem
with unemployment in Australia now, the biggest cause of unemployment
is that people are pricing themselves out of jobs. one man's
increase could mean another man's job and what we're doing
will not only give employees as good an increase in their standard
of living as any increase in wages would have given them,. but
it will not involve a payment by an employer. And this means
employers will be encouraged to keep peopl. e, on their payrolls,
and to put more people on their payrolls.
HS: Talking about a man and his job, why the attack on Mr Crean?
PM: I'm blessed if I know! But its just part of the thing,
the speculation, ana if one doesn't respond immediately to every' form
of speculation, one thinks that where there's smoke there's fire.
There's the absurd position yesterday in the House of Representatives,
Mr Snedden said that I was not only going to twop jobs for Mr * Crean
but for Mr John son.. He brought this allegation on in Parliament'.
in the morning rather early, he cut off question time so as to bring
it up-and then he caught a plane to Brisbane and mentioned three
more names. Well of course you can see what the consequence would
be if I say. yes or no to Crean or yes or no to Johnson. Then
next time there's a question time, he asks me to say yes or no
about the next three he's mentioned, the ones -but the damn
funny thing he didn't mention in Parliament all five,
when three hours before he'd mentioned twreAnd of course behind-, the
scenes he's been planting this idea about a whole lot. Well I don't
respond to these things. I have my responsibilities and I'll exercise
them as I see fit.& I C"
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. HS: Prime Minister a lot of people voted for the Labor Party
on 7 December 1972 and again the 18th May because they believed
the Labor Party had some vigorous, exciting plans. And yet a lot
of people who voted Labor on both those occasions have lost
confidence. Why?
PM: Oh some might have. I also believe however that a great
number have had their confidence confirmed and a lot of others
have decided that we deserve support because we are trying to
carry out what we promised to do. Now we've been very unfortunate
of course because this world-wide movement, almost recession,
has taken place and this makes it very difficult to get on with
all the things which we've promised to do and which we've tried
to do. But there's.. a also a very great deal of obstruction.
There's been obstruction in the Senate quite inexcusable delays
in getting some Bills through. I mean the Trade Practices Bill
should have gone through a year earlier. It would have been of.'
very great benefit to consumers if it had gone through. And
there are many other instances too. And of course, some of the
States have delayed or obstructed, and Queensland, consistently
so, in fact vituperatively so. That is you get the absurd
position that Queensland alone among the States will not co-operate
with some of the things which we promised to try to do and which
the other States are co-operating with us in doing.
HS: I' ve got a press release here from the Premier's Department
and he says and I quote " The Prime Minister was launching into
his usual campaign of stand-over and cries of obstructionism
because somebody stood up to him." Meaning I presume himself..
PM: Wcil of course he would criticise me for what he c~ ijects
to there. The extraordinary thing is however, that not only
the Labor Premiers, but the Liberal Premiers, the three Liberal
Premiers are not objecting to the things to which Mr Bjelke-Petersen
objects. I'll give you a couple of instances. Queensland is the
only State which has not co-operated with us in setting up
a Land Council to acquire and develop and make available at cost,-
land for people who want to build. The Liberal Premiers have all
greed. Again growth centres everybody knows that two Liberal
i.: iers have co-operated with me, Sir Robert Askin and Mr Hamer
in getting ahead with the growth centre in klbury Wodonga. We
sta),!-rl this in January. A973. We wanted to do exactly the same
thing lownsville. But Mr Bjelke-Petersen will not do so.
HS: Does he give a reason?
PM: No he doesn't. As a matter of fact that's one of the
most extraordinary things, thaL he doesn' ' t even answer the letters
very often. I give a couple of instances of this, not only the
letters, you might remember that in September last year there was
a Cori; titutional Convention in Sydney and the Premiers of N. S. W.
and Victoria made a particular suggestion. and I said ' Righto,
I'll take that up, let's discuss it over dinne! r tonight'. So
all the Premiers were asked to have dinner with me in Sydney.
And all of them came, except Mr Bjelke-Petersen. And we agreed,
and Mr Ejelke-Petersen himself agreed, that we should all get
our parliamentary draftsmen to draft an amendment to the Consitituion..
It was to make it more flexible so that there could be references
by the States to the Federal parliament, as qlready happens
but to make it clear that this could be for a certain time or subject.
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to certain conditions and the reverse process, that the Federal
Pariament could refer matters for a time or on conditions if it
wished to any or all of the states. And then all these were
drafted and I sent the drafts along to all the premiers. And
' Mr Bjelke-Petersen hasn't responded in any way.
iiS: Have the other Premiers?
PM: Yes they have, they have.
PM: I'll give another instance. There was a special Premiers
conference to discuss inflation last August. We all agreed
that our officials should get together and prepare papers for us
on six matters, and-then we could discuss those after we got
the papers and come to some agreement on them. They were things
like the procedures for government tenderings and wage tribunals
and wage fixation, a great number of things concerning inflation,
which did need us all to pursue the same course.
The reports were sentby me, they were good reports by these
officials, federal and state officials, from all the States
as well as the federal and I sent these all' 2 months ago.
And Mr Bjelke-Petersen hasn't yet replied or acknowledged.
Its no use saying I'm out of step with him everybody's out of
step with him, the other five Premiers too, the two Labor ones
the three Liberal ones, but just forget that. Look at the position
that Mr Gorton was in. When we were first elected in December 72
it very quickly emerged that there were 3 quarrels between us and
they were the same ones there were between Mr Bjelke-Peterson and
John Gorton. They were the Barrier Reef, overseas control of our
natural resources, and aboriginal land rights. Exactly the same
thing. Now he's out of step with Gorton, he's out of step with
Askin and Hamer and Court as well as the Labor Premiers. And
then there are several things which concern Queensland alone.
And he has either not answered or he's just stalled.. He's stalled
now for twenty-three months on the proposal that I made, I mean
our predecessors have made it too, but I raised it when we came
in, that the Australian National Line should be allowed to trade
between Queensland ports, which need more ships and the ships
of course have spare cargo space. Now I'll give you 3 or 4 other
instances, last June these came up, I proposed to him that we
should see if we could reduce-electrici, costs in Queensland, Right
along Queensland's coast, in every provincial city. their electricity
costs around double what they are in the provincial cities in
N. S. W. and Victoria. He hasn't even answeredothe letter. Then
I suggested to him that we should get an environmental impact statement
made on beachsand mining and he hasn't even answered the letter.
And there are a couple of things about aborigines and he hasn't
answered those either. Its rather extraordinary, this is not standovei
I'm not standing over Askin, I'm not standing over Hamer, I'm not
standing over Court. They see advantages. But there must be at
least $ 50 million that would have come to Queensland if they had
accepted offers which have been accepted by other States.
HS: Fair enough point. Mr Bjelke-Petersen of course is fighting
the forthcoming State election on the issue that the people of
Queensland have got to decide between his Government and a Government
which is aligned with the Federal Government.
PM: Yes the people of Queensland have to decide whether.
-they want an obstructionist Government in their State or a
co-operative one.
HS: Fair enough point. You're going overseas -PM:-yes)
Some people wonder about Prime Ministers, Premiers for that matter,
who go overseas when there seem to
PM: Well last year for instance the Premier was away
from Queensland in more days than I was away from Australia.
HS: Touche. Do you see any particular advantage in going
overseas, particularly when Australia's facing this difficult
time.. PM: There are plenty of people whc can pursue the domestic
policies. And of course, I devote the great bulk of my time to
them. But there are many things which can only be determined At
the level of head of government and . face-to-face. After all,
there are great number of heads of government who now come to
Australia: the Prime Minister of Japan, the Shah of Persia
in the last couple of months, and of couse you remember since we've
been in there've been more people visit Australia, heads of government
or heads of state, than in the previous ten years. Now take the
question of Japan, surely nobody should dispute that I should
visit Japan, as I did a year ago, and as a result, of my government's
contacts with Japan the price that Australia including Queensland
has got for. mineral export is three times what it was.
Now Queensland coal is fetching 3 times the price that it was
getti. ng when we came into office 23 months ago. And this was
becak. of-* the Australian Government's initiatives.
Surely .& ody says that I shouldn't see President Foird, or that
I shouldn'lt go to the United Nations, where some things a-lone can
be solved, that I shouldn't have gone to Japan, as the group of
ministers repaying, the visit that Japanese ministers made a year
before. This is an annual thing. Nobody's going to suggest surely
that I shouldn't go to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting
These things clearly require my presence and it would be taken amiiss
I believe if I were not to make the visits I mention. And any
other visits I mention have only been over a week two weeks in
S. E. Asia, all the countries there. Well for God's sake, surely
I should visit them. They visit here too. And the other ones I've
made ve been just for 3 or 4 days, over the weekend.
HS: Prira' Minister, you've made reference to the improvement
in the price of coal, getting back to things like attitudes ito
overseas investment and international trade. Why does the Federal
Labor Government Appear to have virtually dhAnged its mind ab * out
say overseas investment in Australia, how much should be investe~ d
how much should be held.
PM: W want to see that we have an Australian control of our
resourcesT Now it doesn't matter so much who owns them but it is
essential that we should exercise control over them. Its not good
enough for big international cdtkpanies to come along and pick off
State governments which don't themselves and the public services
too, one has to confess, don't have sufficient skill to deal with
these things. The big companies with whor. we are dealing are bigger
in their scale of operations-and in-the experts at their disposal,
. than any State government in Australia, inclUding N. S. W And its
6-~ 7 7-*
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only the Federal Government which has the resources and the
-skills and the status to deal in this way. There's been a great
deal of obstruction, take the uranium things, there's been challenges
in the Courts, and there's been obstruction in the Senate there.
For six months they held up regulations and then disallowed them.
Well when that avenue was closed Mr Connor, Dr Cairns and I got
together with the uranium people and we made a contract. And
B as a result of that we will get a very much better deal for
Australia. For instance, the amount of the royalty for the
export of yellowcake you know, the uranium powder, from Australia
when we came in, the amount of the royalty was We've been'
able to get 50%. Forty times as great!+ And in the process
we have been able to secure by co-operation with the main company
concerned; the erection of a processing plant and thi hmeans we'll
be able to co-operate with the people who discovered uaniumn
They'll get a very good return themselves, they know that, and
whilethey used to join in the general criticism ofeus, they now
say that this is an equitable arrangement, and of course it is.'
Now in some other respects we want to be ensured that the environment
isn't harmed and that aboriginal susceptibilities are not
affronted. Now that's delaying some things with some other companies.-
But the one where there was no objection on the basis of overseas+
control or aboriginal rights or environmental hazards, the arrangements
have been made, very sensible arrangements.
HS: Prime Minister a final question there was no doubt
I think in most people's minds, particularly the minds Of observers
that it was Gough Whitlam who led the Labor P r victory in
1972 and again in May. Is Gough Whitlam stil I7tle gaptain of the
ship though, that's the question in the minds of a lot of people.
PM: Well I would think I am, I would have though that nobody
was doubting that this week. But the main thing I want to emphasise
is there is a good crew for the ship as a whole and some excellent
officers. I think that the ship is well-handled and its in good
shape.
HS: Fair enough. Prime Minister thanks very much.