EMBARGO': 7.15 p. m.
Monday 3rd December 73
INTERVIEW BY MIKE WILLESEE ON " CURRENT AFFAIR" WITH THE PRIME
MINISTER, MR E. G. WHITLAM, CANBERRA,
MONDAY, 3RD DECEMBER, 1973
WILLESEE: Welcome to " Current Affair" and on the occasion of
the first birthday of the first Labor Government in 23 years we
are privileged to welcome to a " Current Affair" the Prime Minister,
Mr Whitlam. Mr Whitlam, it's not unusual on these occasions to
talk about the worst mistake that you may have made or the
Government may have made....
PRIME MINISTER: I think that was your punchline last time I
was with you six months ago.
WILLESEE: Not unkindly I hope but I wonder whether on this
occasion you may not be now in the middle of your biggest mistakethe
referendum?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Are you serious about the incomes?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: It wasn't forced upon you?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Do you wholeheartedly support it?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Would you like to give the Liberal/ Country Party Government
the power to control or even freeze incomes?
PRIME MINISTER: I believe, that whoever the people elect as a
Government should be able to pass laws about incomes. I don't
believe a Liberal Government would venture to freeze them.
WILLESEE: Are you happy to give a Liberal/ Country Party Government
that chance?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: And that is precisely what you are doing?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, of course, it is. When you alter the
constitution at a referendum, you are giving the authority to
whoever is elected as a Government in the future. My party, in the
past, has sometimes opposed referendums; it has been wrong.
WILLESEE: Are you putting yourself wholeheartedly behind a measure
which the Labor Party is only half-hearted about and the trade
union movement doesn't want? Does that disturb you?.
PRIME MINISTER: The trade union movement is half-hearted about it,
they're divided about, the Labor Party supports it.
WILLE SEE: Wholeheartedly?
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PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: But you know that there are many Labor men, members of
your own Caucus, who don't like it?,
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: You don't accept that?
PRIME MINISTER: No. There are some who wculdn't be as enthusiastic
as others, but the Labor Party is supporting it.
WILLESEE: Do you agree thaL a victory iii the incomes proposal
is very unlikely?
PRIMP. MINISTER: It will be much more difficult than on prices.
WILLESEE: In fact, unlikely?
PRIME MINISTER: May be. May be.
WILLESEE: Would you also agree that it would suit your purposes
to win on prices and lose on incomes?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I would prefer to win both. I have always
followed the line that whoever constituted the Australian Government
ought to be able to pass l. aws on such subjects always.
WILLESEE: And you are still convinced that you need this power
that you could not hiave done it with the co-operation of the States?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course ycu couldn't. There are no matters of
national economic management that you can do with the States. Look
at all the matters taxation, value of the currency, credit,
tariffs, all those things have to be done on a national basis
and everybody accepts that. It just happens, that in Australia,
the national Government can't pass laws on prices or incomes th(.
only country in the world where that's the case.
WILLESEE: So this referendum is not in any way a mistake?
PRIM4E MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Do you concede there have been mistakes made in economic
management over the past twelve months?
PRIME MINISTER: I suppose there have been some, but there have been
some very great successes in economic management too.
WILLESEE: What about economic promises that you have failed to keep.
Particularly with the Budget?
PRIME MINISTER: What are you thinking of?
WILLESEE: Of indirect taxes. You said that you wouldn't increase
indirect taxes.
PRIME MINISTER: I said direct taxes.
WILLESEE: You also said indirect?
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PRIME MINISTER: I don't think so.
WILLESEE: On September 18 on a " Current Affair" you said, no
you wouldn't. You also said you wouldn't increase company taxes
because they were high enough.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I did that well they are income taxes.
Income taxes on individuals and on companies. I did say, in my
policy speech, that they didn't need to go up.
WILLESEE: On indirect taxes, your party even went so far in the
It's Time brochures to talk about the evils and unfairness of
indirect taxes such as taxes cn cigarettes?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't remember ever saying it myself.
WILLESEE: You don't feel that you....
PRIME MINISTER: No, I don't. This has never been raised in the
Parliament. I don't think we were breaking any promise not to
raise taxes on cigarettes.
WILLESEE: It doesn't make it wrong or right though?
PRIME MINISTER: No, quite, but you are putting something to me and
you discovered it or revivied it. This is not an issue.
t, . LSE;: On perhaps a more substantive matter, didn't you promise
tIa-It defence spending would be 5 p: er cent of your gross Budget?
PRIME MINISTER: There was discussion along these lines back in 1971.
WILLESEE: And it's about 2.9 per cent, I think.
PRIME MINISTER: I forget the precise percentages. But, after all,
the military situation in our area has completely changed in the last
two years. Does that mean that we have been wedded to the degree
of expenditure which was considered appropriate thcn? No, well let'-,;
be realistic about these matters. After all, since those things
wvere discussed, over two years ago, there has been detente between
America and China and America has gotoutl of Indo-China. This is
rather a different situation.
WILLESEE: Does this mean that all promises are subjected to
instances that may occur later?
PRIME MINISTER: Where there have been such great changes in the
situation you shouldn't rigidly adhere to something which is no longe; 1
relevant. It would be quite wasteful to continue the percentage
of military expenditure this year which might have been considered
appropriate over two years ago.
WILLESEE: On personal income tax, you certainly did keep your promise
not to raise it?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I did.
WILLESEE: But people like Dr Coomnbs and Mr Havike say that it was
a mistake?
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PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Who is right?
PRIME MINISTER: I am. The Cabinet is.
WILLESEE: Is it because it was a Cabinet decision, you're right
or are you sure that in economic terms....?
PRIME MINISTER: They happen to be the same. The revenue from
income tax this year has gone up iabout 26 per cent.
WILLESEE: That's larqely due to inflation, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, and national growth.
WILLESEE: Don't you think it is unfair to lower income groups to
not increase or restructure the income tax?
PRIME MINISTER: It is unfair not to restructure income tax schedules.
We are in the prccess of doing it.
WILLESEE: How do you feel about Mr Hawke disagreeing with you on
a point like that?
PRIME MINISTER: He is entitled to express his view, but my colleagues
and I were not persuaced.
WILLESEE: As far as you are concerned, he seems to be doing it more
and more?
PRIME MTNISTEPI: There is one othr issue.
WILLESEE: Do you think he doesn't like you much?
PRIME MINISTER: I have no reason to think that. We get on very
well together when we are together.
WILLESEE: How long since you have been together?
PRIME MINISTER: About a month. He has been overseas in the meantime
and so have I.
WILLESEE: And he has been back for a couple of days talking about
a very important issue. He hasn't tried to contact you?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: The words which have been exchanged between you not
directly haven't been very flatterijq.
PRIME MINISTER: What do you mean the words.
WILLESEE: For example, after you talked about him not representing
the Labor Party or the trade union movement on the question of taxes,
he replied by calling you petulant and gratuitous.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: How do you react to that?
PRIME MINISTER: I keep my cool. I don't reply in kind.
WILLESEE: I think he thought he was replying in king?
PRIME MINISTER: I didn't use those words, or anything like them.
WILLESEE: On our program the other night he said that he couldn't
repeat the words on television that you had used.
PRIME MINISTER: I didn't use any words on television.
WILLESEE: No, he said that you talked to some pressmen and he
couldn't repeat the words on television.
PRIME MINISTER: This is gossip.
WILLESEE: How concerned are you about these apparent personal
attacks both ways in fact?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't accept from what you said then that therf:--
would be a personal attack.
1W'ILLESEE: When he talks about your Middle East policy.
PRIME MINISTER: The party's Middle East policy.
NIILLESEE-Yes, you spearhead that policy?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I moved the resolution and it was
overwhelmingly carried. I don't think anyone opposed it.
WILLESEE: Mr Hawke says it is an unintelligent policy. Do you
suggest that the Government might
PRIME MINISTER: Now on this, Mr Hawke is at pains to emphasise
that he speaks purely in a personal. sense.
WILLESEE: How can he do this as President of the Party?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't know. I don't know, but I merely repeat
that I am expressing the party's policy in this matter. The party's
policy enuciated as recently as last July. T ' here are no political
differences in the national Parliament on the Middle East, there
hasn't been for the last quarter of a century.
WILLESEE: If you are standing by party policy and your Federal
President is not, what are you going to do about it?
PRIME MINISTER: He says that he is speaking as an individual.
WILLESEE: Well how can he, he really can't can he?
PRIME MINISTER: I have answered that. before haven't I.
WILLESEE: Well, what would you like to do about it?
PRIME MINISTER: I adhere to party policy.
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WILLESEE: He is being devisive isn't he?
PRIME MINISTER: He is speaking as an individual.
WILLESEE: But he's still President of the A. L. P. and talking on
a most important matter of policy?
PRIME MINISTER: This is going back a fair bit, isn't it?
WILLESEE: Yes, but you would remember it.
PRIME MINISTER: I am following party policy, and I support it too.
WILLESEE: Would you like to see Mr Hawke in Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Would you support his entry into Par] iami-nnt?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Would you see an early rise....
PRIME MINISTER: I have tried to get him into Parliament since 1963.
WILLESEE: Are you trying as hard now as you tried before?
PRIME MINISTER: I will help him whenever he wants to get in.
WILLESEE: Do you think he would go straight into the ministry?
PRIME MINISTER: I think it's likely.
WILLESEE: As likely as Mr Young?
PRIME MINISTER: Perhaps more likely. Are you trying to help
Mr Hawke get into a ministry or Mr Young, you know that question
like this don't help either.
WILLESEE: They've got to get into Parliament first though haven't
they? Just a last point on Mr Hawke. I suppose his language was
strongest out of all his attacks on your Cabinet decision on the
new Sydney airport at Galston an act of political imbecility
I think he said. Was it?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Was it irresponsible to ecide on Galston the way you did?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Is it true that you just .: at around and picked one out
of political expediency?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: But you didn't have a proper inquiry into the site before
you made a decision did you?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes we did.
WILLESEE: Is that available?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Has it been made public?
PRIME MINISTER: It will be.
WILLESEE: When?
PRIME MINISTER: There are further ones which have been sought and
will be made public. Now let's get some practicality on this. The
cheapest and quickest way to get adequate airport facilities in
Sydney is to extend the Mascot runway into Botany Bay. This would
be a very difficult political thing to do. The Liberals realise
that because they won't endorse a proposal either, either the State
Liberals or the federal Liberals, so whatever site is suggested
will. immediately be attacked. But nobody is prepared, at this
stage, to endorse the quickest and cheapest proposal.
WILLESEE: In other words, do you agree that it was political
expediency at least in as much as you....
PR. IME MINISTER: Not to have Mascot may be said to have been
political exp-ediency but it is also political expediency to which
everybody in the federal Parliament falls prey, because nobody
is prep,-, recl at this stage to urge the doubling of the runways into
Potarny Day at Mascot. Let's be practical about it; dorn't criticise
the Labor Government for refusing to do something that the Liberal
Government refused to do and that the Liberal Opposition refuses
to advocate, and that the State-Liberal Government refuses to
advocate. WILLESEE: You hardly sound convincing about Galston not being a
mistake. It was a mistake wasn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
VWILLESEE: It was a political mistake?
PRIME MINISTER: Was it?
WILLESEE: It would seem so from the Paramatta by-election?
PRIME MINISTER: Why do you think we lost only on that? It didn't
help in Paramatta, that's true.
WI! LESEE: And you are not prepared to concede that it might have
been a mistake....
PRIME MINISTER: I don't believe that if we had postponed the
decision, I doubt very much whether we would have won Paramatta.
WILLESEE: Why not?
PRIME MINISTER: Why should we, we never have.
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WILLESEE: Twelve months ago now you went within a few votes of gettinq
that seat?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WITLL Sf-J I nu you arce satisfied with your p.;: forLiances as ca
Government since?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Do you believe......( unclear) a change in Government?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course it is.
WILLESEE: Well why would you expect then that you would lose such
a close seat?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't believe that the circumstances at the time
made it easy to win it. Why do you think that Mr Bowen chose that
stage to retire?
WILLESEE: I don't know why he chose to retire. Are you reflecting
on your own personal popularity at that stage?
PFIME MINISTER: No.
WJLLFSEE Looking at the Labor performance generally, Open Covernment
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WLLESEE: There has been a lot of criticism that you have failed
t-. o supply one of the things you talked about most open governricnt.
How do you react to that criticism?
PRIME MINISTER: Well it would be a completely wrong assertion.
There has never been a Government which has allowed the public to
participate in decision and which has informed the public cf
' ccisons to such a great degree.
WILLESEE: Is that sufficient?
PRIME iIINISTER: Certainly. I mean we are infinitely better
because they would just not do these things we've done them, we've
started them.
WTLLESEE: But at your weekly press conference which does indicate
open government, you so often decline to answer questions or cut
interviewers off?
PRIME MINISTER: No, that's not true. Everybody gets one question,
and that takes about half an hour and that's fair enough.
WILLESEE: But you indicate, no more on that, or I don't want to
answer something on that.
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PRIME MINISTER: Obviously I will not discuss possible changes in
say the value of the currency or an imposition to taxation, i. e.
anyone who askes a question on those subjects knows quite well
he won't get an answer. He may think it's smart to ask me because
then some people might think superficially that I'm not being
forthcoming, that I am being cagey. But, in fact, no Prime Minister,
no minister, would answer a question on things like that and they
know it. And there is another matter where, of course, I will not
answer questions and that is on installations which other countries
have in this country and which they want to keep secret because it
is not our secret alone.
WILLESEE: But you weren't saying that last year, nor was Mr Barnard.
PRIME MINISTER: We were, we were.
WILLESEE: I thought Mr Barnard, in particular, was saying that
these questions should be answered?
PRIME MINISTER: He has. On the very first day that the new
Parliament sat he told the Australian people through the Parliament
all that it was open for Australia to say and also a great deal in
which we persuaded the Americans to agree to our saying. Now
this was the very first day we sat. The things which it was quite
absurd to supress we have released or we are authorised by our allies
to release. But the things which we are not authorised to release,
of course, we won't, and we never said we would.
WILLESEE: In general terms, not just defencc matters, would you
be prepared to say
PRIME MINISTER: In defence and fisccil matters. Obviously one doesn't
comment because it can produce speculation.
WILLESEE: Looking at the whole spectrum of government, would you be
prepared to say that you are satisfied with the level of open
government? PRIME MINISTER: With the progress which has Leen made, yes. But
there is a limit to what you can get through. For instance, we haven't
yet been able to pass the ombudsman legislation or to pass the
freedom of information legislation. The sheer weight of the
legislation program has prevented us doing it this year. But
we are preparing it.
WILLESEE: Looking at the hindrances and other obstacles that you
have had to overcome during the year, is CF. ucus the biggest?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Caucus is a hindrance to you....
PRIME MINISTER: No, not at all, of course it's not. The weekly
or more frequent meeting of all Labor members of the Parliament is
one of the great sources of the Labor Party's strength. Because
if people know that if they elect a Labor member to represent
them in the federal Parliament he will have a full regular
opportunity to participate in the decisions of the Government, if it
is a Labor Government, or the decisions that an Opposition takes if
it is a Labor Opposition. That is,* if the people elect a member of
Parliam~ ent who will be sharing the responsibility, he just won't be
on the outside not even looking in, as happens with any Liberal
backbencher or Country Party backbencher.
WILLESEE: Wel. haven't you often been embarrassed by Caucus when
it reverses Cabinet decisions?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Are you happy about that?
PRIME MINISTER: They' are entitled to do it.
WILLESEE: Are you happy about it?
PRIME MINISTER: Sometimes I have been, sometimes I am not.
WILLESEE: Do you support the principle of Caucus being able to
review a Cabinet decision and change it?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course. I not only support it, I advocate it.
I believe that a Labor Government is a much better government than
a Liberal Government because you get more people involved in the
decisions. But let's put thi s in perspective: I suppose there might
be half a dozen certainly no more decisions which the Caucus
has over-ruled a decision by the Cabinet. Cabinet decisions this
year are well over a thousand in number, so it is a mighty small
percentage. WILLESEE: You are minimising the obstacle the Caucus could be, but
recently you threatened to resign if Caucus insisted on having a
say on the tariff matter.
PRIME MINISTER: If they insisted on seeing a Tariff Board Report
before the decision was made and announced on the report. Yes, I
did, it's the same as if Cauicus were to say we want the Budget, we
want to know what's in the Budget before it is published.
WIILLESEE: So you don't support all the power that Caucus would like
to take to itself?
PRIME MINISTER: Caucus doesn't want to take that power to itself.
Your saying that there was a great deal of lobbying and, naturally,
therefore, public reaction to the Tariff Board inquiry into colour
television. Caucus, last Wednesday, approved of that decision no
news, I don't think there was a thing in the paper about it. They
approved it, there was no longer any drama about it.
WILLESEE: Yes, but hadn't you taken the sting out of the drama by
your previous action? You virtually resolved the conflict with a
successful threat?
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PRIME MINISTER: No, I didn't. It only had to be stated for people,
and there were very few who ever contemplated that Caucus should
see Tariff Board reports which might have financial advantages or
disadvantages to people in the community before the reports were
considered by Cabinet and Cabinet had made and announced the
decision. There would be very grave mischief, as everybody sees,
if people who are not sworn to secrecy ministers and public service
advisers are sworn to secrecy but if people who were not sworn to
secrecy were consulted when there was likely to be a change in the
interest rate or a change in the value of the currency, or changes
in taxes or changes in tariffs. In cases like that, obviously,
the decisions must be made by people who are sworn to secrecy. Now,
Caucus accepts that. What you are referring to is a Caucus
impediment in some way is a notice of motion that was moved. It
hadn't been considered by Caucus. I was asked a question in Parliament
by a Liberal and I gave the only answer that any minister could give.
WILLESEE: Caucus is certainly the impediment to your ability to
speak with absolute confidence because you can be overruled and so
is the Federal Conference of the Labor Party. Do you ever get sick
of the aparatus of the Labor Party to be able to second-guess you?
PRIME MINISTER: No. I've sponsored; I've also secured a very
great number of changes in the procedures of the Federal Conference
and the Caucus, and I'm very happy the way they work. I usen't to be,
but after all there have been changes since those days.
VIILLESEE: Do you think there is any national difference between your
style of Prime Ministership which some see as a Presidential style
and the inherent democracy of the Labor Party?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: None at all?
PRIME MINISTER: The Labor Party believes in representative governme~' nt
and there have to be some people or groups of people that are
chosen to carry out some jobs. You can't have a public meeting
deciding everything. You can't have all the memrbers of the Labor Party
in Australia deciding everything. The whole system of representative
government depends on people being able to chose their representatives
f: or certain jobs. And in some cases, the Prime Minister would be
the representative. To give you an instance: if you are going to
suggest somebody as Governor-General, the Prime Minister presumably
has the principal and even the sole job on that. There are others
where a ministry does it; there are others where the Caucus docs it.
WILLESEE: The Labor Party has a lot of natural characteristics
un. derstood particularly by Labor men. Do you . think one of them could
he a dislike of leaders who threaten to resign?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: You have done it three times now, I think.
PRIME MINISTER: When was the last time? Years ago, and the systerm
has changed since then hasn't it.
WILLESEE: No, the last time was on the tariffs?
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PRIME MINISTER: Well this is entirely hypothetical, as I was asked
what would happen on the basis of newspaper reports of this
notice of motion which had been given.
WILLESEE: Was this really hypothetical, I thought it was a real
threat? PRIME MINISTER: No, it was a notice of motion.
WILLESEE: Well, there have been two other occasions a few years
ago and more recently on the U. S. Bases. That was within the last
twelve months, was it not?
PRIME MINISTER: Where was there a threat to resign, to use your
own words there?
WILLESEE: I am not aware that it was a public threat but do you
deny that....
PRIME MINISTER: I am not sure of any such threat I am using your
terms. This is all very dramatic but I don't think you remember
WILLESEE: But you were pushed to reveal certain details about,
I forget the exact installations, omega may have been included,
U. S. installations.
PRIME MINISTER: Omega is not here.
WILLESEE: Arny U. S. installations? Do you deny that there was
ever conflict between you and the party over that?
PRIME MINISTER: There was never a proposal. You are assuming
what my reaction would be if some proposal were carried. I don't
even remember a proposal being made.
WILLESEE: H1ow much of a handicap has it been to have inexperienced
ministers who haven't been accustomed to a hard and long workload.
How difficult has that been?
PRIME MINISTER: It is true that most of the ministers have had to
work in a different way to the way they had worked previously.
WILLESEE: I'm not suggesting a fault?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I know, I know you're not. This is not one
of the questions in the mistake syndrome which you said was to be
the purpose of the interview.
People have to work differently obviously as ministers to
the way they workoce in many cases for many years in Parliament in
Opposition. WILLESFF: Even physically you have had three ministers collapse.
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PRIME MINISTER: Yes, there has been a very heavy workload. This is
partly, of course, because we have been a very diligent Parliament
this year. There have been more bills passed than in any previous
year and of course, there are very very many more bills which have
to be introduced or which will still have to be debated this year.
It is a record legislative year in the history of this country.
WILLESEE: Are you thinking of a reshuffle in the ministry?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: You don't have one planned?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: On the union movement, I suppose the most outstanding
difference between this government's last year and the record now
is that you siad there would be fewer strikes than in the previous
year. PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Now, the only figure I have seen are from January to
August and there were more strikes.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes I think that is probably right.
WILLESEE: How did you make such a mistake?
PRIME MIU" ISTER: Obviously there is more likelihood of strikes
when there is full employment and there is full employment now.
We have produced it. Last year there... . The other thing is
WILLESEE: And you anticipate....
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, that is right. There is another factor.
Most of the strikes in Australia, the ones which have inconvenienced
the public, have come through disputes between the State Liberal
Government and their employees and I think there can be no doubt
that in some of these cases the Liberal Governments have been quite
provocative. WILLESEE: Are you satisfied with the support you have had from the
union movement?
PRIME MINISTER: No, not entirely. I think that some cf the unions
in New South Wales in recent weeks or months were quite unhelpful.
WILLESEE: At one stage when you were taking . about inflation you
said you had an assurance from Mr Hawke that the unions would show
restraint in seeking further wage increases. Mr Hawke has denied
that. PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: How disappointed did that make you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I thought I understood him quite clearly
but apparently he changed his mind, or I hadn't understood him.
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WILLESEE: Which do you believe?
PRIME MINISTER: The former.
WILLESEE: Have you had enough of Mr Hawke?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, but I think you have asked enough questions
on this subject.
WILLESEE: It is very important though, as well as being the trade
union leader he is the party's President and there is an obvious
conflict between the two of you.
PRIME MINISTER: On the Middle East.
WILLESEE: On that matter of assuranres from a personal conversation?
PRIME MINISTER: The only instances are these referendums the, one
on prices. Now, the union movement had differences of opinion on
this.
WILLESEE: Can I ask one last question on Mr Hawke?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course, you are entitled to.
WILLESEE: Is he an impediment to you enjoying better relations with
the union movement.
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Despite conversations like....
PRIME MINISTER: Let's get this straight. Mr Hawke gives interviews
in a more frequent and informal manner than I am able to do, but you
ask me whether I want him in the Parliament. I said yes. I also
ought to take the opportunity to say, in the last. elections and in
the next elections, whenever they come, he will be a most effective
campaigner. Now don't get these things out ef proportion. There
are two instances where you have quoted a difference of opinion. In
one of them he is stressing that he speaks as & n individual.
WILLESEE: And you have also said that you don't know how he can do
that as President of the Labor Party?
PRIME MINISTER: Well how many times do I have to answer that.
WILLESEE: No, but I thought you were
PRIME MINISTER: No, I wasn't. The answer is the same no matter
how often you ask it.
WILLESEE: Yes, I need reassurance sometimes.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. You have become very uncertain-apparently?
Wff14 t t; yes. FHave you becomc more uncertain after twelve months,
Prime Miii; ter"
PRIME MINISTER: Most people would allege the opposite.
WILLESEE: What do you think?
PRIME MINISTER: I wouldn't think I had.
WILLESEE: Looking at your Government's relations with the business
community, do you think your report card could be marked " room
for improvement"?
PRIME MINISTER: We would never, clearly, get top marks from many
people in the business community.
WILLESEE: Well I don't think you have got 50 out of 100 at this
stage, let alone top marks.
PRIME MINISTER: I am not very surprised at that the report card
that they make. But afterall, the people that have criticised us
most in the business community scarcely have very much public
support. We have been criticised very much by many of the overseas
mining interests. Now, there is no doubt that something had to be
done about the growing overseas control of our mineral resources.
We've done it; we have therefore offended many people. There is
no doubt in my mind that it needed to be done and the public are glad
we have done it and the public expects us to go on doing it more.
WILLESEE: But when you go so far as to say that you want 100 per cent
ownership by Australian sources of all our fuel sources, that must
create uncertainty and even fear in a lot of industries.
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: They don't know when you are going to do it and how you
are going to do it?
PRIME MINISTER: There was a lot of surprise, a lot of pressure and
so on a few weeks or months ago on this issue but there can be no
question now about the public support there is for what we have
been trying to do to secure Australia's energy resources. It is
quite absurd that companies should be given licences or leases by
State Governments to explore resources which we may need very much
ourselves, or to explore those resources at prices which are less
than our customers would be prepared to pay. Now, these people,
they were not pleased with what we did I can understand they were
not pleasexdwith what we did but there can be no doubt that it was
necessary in the public interest.
WILLESEE: Yes, but you have still left a lot of uncertainty around?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we haven't. We have been quite clear and
quite consistent and we haven't been deflected from our duty, our
purpose, by the criticism by overseas companies.
WILLESEE: After your first twelve months, you now face a position
where you may have to go to the polls again soon potentially
you face a double dissolution.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: If the Senate knocks back either of those two major
proposals, health insurance or schools, will you certainly go to the
people or is there room for compromise on either issue?
-16-
PRIME MINISTER: Only one of these matters has been debated so far
in the Parliament, that's the Commonwealth Assistance to Schools on
a Needs Basis. There was a vote in the House of Representatives
on it. But the Liberals, the Country Party, the have in( L
yet made up their mind what they will do about it in the Senate.
Well let' s wait to see what they do about it there.
WILLESEE: Is there room for compromise?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, let's wait and see what they do. Clearly
the matter they put to a vote in the House of Representatives we
couldn't be expected to accept because we had proved to the people
in the 1969 elections and the elections last year too, and there
can be no question that we are commuitted, and the public expects,
that Commonwealth assistance to schools should be on a needs basis.
And then the other thing you mentioned about universal health
insurance that also has been put to the people in the 1969 and 1972
elections. There can be no doubt that they expect us to do something
about it. But this hasn't been debated in the Parliament yet, andi
the bills only came in last Thursday night.
WILLESEE: And you don't realise the possibility of some room for
ma nouevr e?
PRIME MINISTER: I will wait to see what is done in the Senate on
these r~ atters.
WILLESEE: Finally, Prime Minister, looking at you personally, I amn
sure you would be most surprised if I didn't ask a question about
to quote that friend of yours againt. Petulant, arrogrant and
as some other critics see it, a quick, cruel tongue.
PRIME MINISTER: I would be very surprised if you didn't ask chat.
WILLESEE: Well let me add to the question. It ranges from
Paul Hasluck and the glass of water to witless men up to the
Dr Forbes incident.
PRIME MINISTER: Now, how many years ago were these, how many years?
WILLESEE: I agree fully that they were few and far between, but
they are a most notable characteristic of your career?
PRIME MINISTER: Now, don't you assert, don't Vou insinuate that
there is any stress between the Governor-General and me. There is
not. We were both in error thent, we both realise it and it would
be better if you wouldn't always bring that. out of the dossier.
It doesn't suit him and it doesn't suit me, and it was years ago.
WILLESEE: I accept that they were gr-nerally few and far between.
PRIME MINISTER: About the witless men. The witless men quote was
nine years ago.
WILLESEE: It was 1967.
PRIME MINISOTER: No, it wao 1966, 1966 or 1965. Whatever it was, it was
years ago and the structure of the party has altered since then.
-17-
WILLESEE: It doesn't matter.... it is a long time ago.
PRIME MINISTER: And it might have been a necessary way to get
change. There may be suggestions that change could have been
achieved without what I said then, but that is conjecture, the
fact is that change did come about.
WILLESEE: I don't wish to question you about any one incident, the
fact is that in any portrait of the Whitlam career those points
will always stand out and people tend to judge you accordingly.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: As if this trait of yours is damaging.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. Well, every time I go on an interview with
you, you'll go through this and a couple of other incidents so I
suppose.... ( unclear)
WILLESEE: But you must realise, with respect, Prime Minister,
the last one was the incident with Dr Forbes in the House.
PRIME MINISTER: You were not there on the Wednesday night or on
the Thursday morning.
WILLESEE: No, but I have spoken to a lot of people who were.
PRIME MINISTER: And they told you how Dr Forbes behaved on Wednesday
night?
WILLESEE: Alright, if I was interviewing Dr Forbes I would ask
him about his behaviour.
PRIME MINISTER: But, I mean, were you told how he behaved on
Wednesday night?
WILLESEE: I think that is unfair of you because....
PRIME MINISTER: Well isn't it a necessary preliminary?
WILLESEE: Well, aren't you justifying what you did?
PRIME MINISTER: The fact was that Dr Forbes did behave excessively,
intemperately on Wednesday night and everybody in the Chamber
realises that.
WILLESEE: Are you satisfied that whatever he did justified your
reaction and your....?
PRIME MINISTER: What do you mean my reaction?
WILLESEE: Your unparliamentary language?
PRIME MINISTER: What unparliamentary language?
WILLESEE: You said: " It's what he has or had or put in his guts
that rooted him".
18-
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, and there was one person who heard that,
Mr Snedden. Hansard didn't hear it, the Speaker didn't, the clerks
didn't, it wasn't on radio, nobody heard it in the gallery, and
Mr Snedden thought that it would be good politics to dob me in.
WILLESEE: Was it wise of you to say it?
PRIME MINISTER: No, of course it wasn't, but I didn't think he
would dob me in. It was a quite aside across the table.
WILLESEE: Does that justify it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well he said something before that which when it
came to light the Speaker said he would have required him to withdraw
if he had heard it. The fact is that he said something which only
I heard, I replied in a way that only he heard, then he decided to
dob me in. Nobody in the Chamber or outside it heard it.
WILLESEE: You have accused me of raising it, but really I think
you must accept that you did with the Dr Forbes incident or
certainly.... PRIME MINISTER: Those words you have quoted, of course, shouldn't,
be used in Parliament and they were not heard in the Parliament,
and Billy Snedden mentioned them so that theY~ would be recorded.
WILLESEE: Well let's presume....
PRIME MINIISTER: I withdrew them too, as of course I would have
had to, once....
WILLESEE: Are you....
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Let's presume we have another interview in twelve months
time, and I hope we
PRIME MINISTER: On another channel?
WILLESEE: It will be another channel?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Do you think we would have to talk * About this again or
do you think....
PRIME MINISTER: I would expect that you would go through the
catalogue again.
WILLESEE: I would prefer not to go through it again if there was
nothing between now and then. Do you think that's likely?
PRIME MINISTER: I would expect there would be nothing between now
and then. I would expect that you would raise it, but I would still
enjoy appearing with you.
WILLESEE: Two more questions. Have you suffered any disillusionment
in the last twelve months, personally?
-19-
PRIME MINISTER: No more than any politican who has been around
for a long time suffers.
WILLESEE: But this is different, this is the year you have bcn
Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: On balance, I would say that I have been les:.
disillusioned this year than in any of the previous 20 years
I'd had in Parliament. Yes, it has been a very satisfying anc,
fulfilling period in my life.
WILLESEE: Lut isolating your expectations of the Prime Ministership,
has there been disillusionment in that?
PRIME MINISTER: In some areas we have been able to do much more,
mucL, quicker than I would have hoped. In others, we haven't been
able to go as far.
WILLESEE: Are we going to see a different Gough Whitlam next year?
PR& F MINISTER: I guess he is a developing personality.
WILLESEE: Which way do you think he is developing?
PRIME MINISTER: Improving all the time, going from strength to
strength. WILIESFE. Well. the best Foreign Minister, is he also the
best Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: HIe was the besit Foreign Mirister ( or a generatio.
is what he said.
WILLESEE: And the best Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: For a generation. And you are the best interviewer
for a generation.
WILLESEE: That's very kind of you to say that. Thanks for talking
with us and I hope to see you again in ainother twelve months.