EMBARGO 9. 50 m. Sunday 19 July
CHANNEL 7 NETWORK CURRENT AFFAIRS 0 Jutt
PROGRAMME, " THIS WEEK"
TV INTERVIEW GIVEN BY THE PRIME MINSTER,
MR JOHN GORTON
Interviewer John Boland
Recorded on Friday, 17 July for screenin on Sunday, 19 July
Q. Prime Minister, what were your overall imjressions of your tour of
Papua/ New Guinea?
PM: I think the deepest imprescion 1, ne gets is of the great difficulty in advancing
a country such as the Territory to full self-governmet. This is because
there are different races, different languages, different levels of development in
different regions, different aspirations in different regions and whatever one does
would be interpreted by some regions as going too fast towards self-government and
in other regions as going too slow. And there are jealousies between the various
regions as well. This makes it an extremely difficult exercise. It is one that
has got to be carried out gradually but with some regard for the wishes of all
the region and for the different levels of development in them and for the growing
what shall I say? elite as distinct from those who have not yet had full
chances of education.
Q. I would like to be a little more specific on some of those particular
divisions which you have spoken of. One of the immediate impressions one gets
here in Australia is how long can Australia continue as a colonial power in
New Guinea?
PM: Well, first of all I reject the concept of Australia being a colonial power.
I don't believe she is a colonial power, but we can -ut that to one side for the
moment. And the only answer I can give you is the answer I gave in New Guinea,
and that is that we shculd continue theTe as long as most o the people want us
to continue there and feel they want our help and they want our skills. As an
illustration of that I don't know of any section up there, for example, that
doesn't want to try and ensure that Australian administrators and technical
officers and agricultural officers and surveyors and key people will stay and help
even after self-government comes. So the only answer I can give you is I
believe we should stay there as long as we are wanted to stay there and no longer.
Q. Now do you think that say, the more advanced people on the coastal
fringes.... how long can they wait until the people from the highlands catch up
with them?
PM: I would say that you have -put your finger on the difficulty which I pointed
out at the beginning of this interview. It is a matter surely for arrangement up
there. It is not for the Australian Government, I think, to say " You have got to
wait this long" or haven't got to wait that long, and indeed even in the coastal
areas, there is by no means a unanimity as to what stage they vould like the
Australians to go. The Pangu Party, for example, is keen on very quick selfgovernment,
but the Pangu Party, as far as one can judge, has not got a very large
following. In the highlands, I believe, opinion is unanimous against any early
self-government, and the highlands have the majority of the population of the
Territory of Papua/ New Guinea.
Q. Have you got a sort of twenty-year vacuum here, though, between say, the
Tolais who we seem to feel are more educated than the remainder of the indigenous
people of New Guinea.... now is there a sort of a twenty-year vacuum here where
they have had the advantages of say the Germans when they occupied New Guinea,
and then the Australian Administration since it has been their area to look after,
and the highlands people where there hasn't been a lot of penetration from the
white man, have had this sort of twienty-year period: that they have to catch
ulp?
PM: Oh, it is more than twenty years in that sense in that the coastal areas
have been subject to European influence for, what, seventy or eighty years, and
the highlands for say, twenty, but on the other hand, that doesn't mean that the
highland people can't catch up quite quickly. And, indeed, I believe they are
catching up quite quickly through the povision of primary schools and secondary
schools and technical training, teacher training colleges at Goroka and things of
that kind. But they are still..., they believe they still need Australian participation
and they need Australian ministrat ion. Now, so do a lot of the coastal people,
so do the people around the Sepik and so do, I believe, a lot of the coastal Papuans.
But around Moresby and say \ Uewja] or Madang, there are groups of people vh o
are more eager to move more quickl~ y. And it is a m atter of th, 3 most delicate
balance to try and see that one doesn't go too quiclkly and one doesn't go too
slowly, but that all the time one seeks to leave it finally, at any time, to the
decision of the people generally. Now it is not eas'y to decide how to arrive at
that decision. People have said to me, " Well will you come out in favour * of a
referendum?" I wouldn't be prepared to come out in favour for or against a
referendum on thait at this time, because that is a possible way of arriving at
what they want to do. So is sitting down and arriving at a consensus of opinion
by discussion.... that I s, all areas, perhaps through thellHouse of Assembly.
So are expressions of views of the House of Assembly. There are a variety of
ways in which I feel this feeling could be discovered. I ana not prepared to come
out now and say this is the way in which it will be done.
Q. I gather from your visit, now that you have seen it and you have had a
pretty good look at it, that one again had to gather the impression that perhaps
you went there to what have a loolk at the problems which perhaps had been
created with the white planters through Mr. Whitlam's visit. Now mould this
be a fairly reasonable assessment? ./ 3
PM: No, I went there because since, well February or before,......
Q. And what he said, incidentally, and what Mr. Whitlam said, if I car add
thct to
PM: Yes, but you asked me why I went there?
Q. Yes, fair enough.
PM: I went there because we had been conducting discussions with the
Admiistrator's Executive Council and with the Constitutio:. al Review Committee
on the next steps towards self-government, on trying to ensure that less had to be
referred back to Canberra, on trying to ensure that the Australian administrative
officers of whom I spoke would stay there and be given some security of tei ure
nov, all these matters which they had raised with us. And I went there to
announce, as a result of these discussions, very large steps towards selfgovernment,
a great deal more powver of administration an-d decision being handed
over to the Administrator's Executive Council and to the House of Assemnbly.
Q. Do you tend to echo the sentiments of the white planters and were you
worried about what Mr. Whitlam said, and they are reported to have been very
concerned?
PM: I think Mr. Whitlam caused a great deal of uncertainty in the whole area.
I think he upset large numbers of people by putting a firm date on when Australia
would get out whether the people wanted it or not. I wvould:-' t by any means say
this was confined to the white planters, because it was quite evident it was an
uncertainty and discomfort and fear felt by the highlanders and by many of the
coastal people as well. But that is not the reason why I went there.
Q. Now that you have seen it, and had a pretty good look at it, could Papua/
New Guinea be self-governing by 1972? This is what Mr. Vhitlam said. Now, I
don't want to go into imponderables here, but if for instance, you lost the Senate
election and next year there was a douhle dissolution and LMr. Whitlam became the
Prime Minister, he would have a pretty difficult job in froit of him with about
twelve months up his sleeve to give Papua / New Guinea selU-government, but
from where you sic now, do you see any feasibility of them governing themselves
by 1972?
PM: I imagine any area can be self-governing if the people who have the
responsibility to help it and to advance it move out and say, " Well you are on
your own", well, presumably, it has to be self-governing. But I think the things
that could flow from that action would be quite dangerous. I think it not putting
it too high to say that if one were not careful, something even like a Biafran
situation could develop if we just moved out and said, " Right you are on your
own. We wash our hands of you." 1 believe it possible. / 4
Q. This is very interesting because actually you have niot really set a date
at all. And this is very difficult to try and pin you down oit. Mr. Whitlam says,
" Right, 1972". You don't say the mid-seventies. You do-i-t say the early
eighties. Have you got, though, at the back of your mind, Come idea of when
they could govern themselves?
PM: No, because I think the prerequisite for when they could govern themselves
is a general wish in all the regions that they should from ti-at time govern themselves,
and I think as soon as they reach that point, then they should govern
themselves, with, of course, continuing Australian assistance in the administration
and c-her matters.
Q. Ycu don't see this in a matter of years, though, or time at all, keeping
in mind this
PM: I'm sorry, I just think it quite impossible with any responsibility to say a
particular date. It can't be too long delayed. I don't myself think it will be too
long delayed, because I think1 the situation will arise, certainly not by 1972 and
certainly not by 1973 or 4. 1 am inot going to put on any data at all. All I am
going to say is I believe a situatio-n will eventually arise whiien the people generally
there will say, now, we would likce to have self -government, and then they should
have it.
Q. The way you speak there, it sounds very much as thaough you see that
though as a possibility in the seveInties, in this decade?
PM: I see it as a possibility at some stage. In fact, I do-n't see it as a
possibility at some stage, I see it as a certainty at some s-tage.
Q. In the seventies?
PM: A cextainty at some stage. I am sorry, you are not going to pin n-e down
to any date.
Q. No, well, why I put this to you is it has been suggestd.. all-right, you
haven't really got anything in mind for the early eighties, you haven't really got
anything in mind for the seventies. Mr. Whitlam has come out and said 1972.
Now, we can be critical of him for saying that, but also, can we not be critical
of you for saying, " Well, I don't it will be at some stage?"
PM: Yes you can, if you wish to, but I can only repeat ' rfiat I said to the people
up there, that I think it is highly wrong for the Australianls to say, " You will have
self-government in 1972 or 1973 or 1974 or any date, and we will decide when
you are going to do it, and you will have it whether you wan-t it or not". I think it
is much better to say: " You will have it as soon as you wan.-t it".
Q. When you arrived at Rabaul, and you had these 13, 030 Tolais of the
Mataungan Association there chewing betel nuts and drinking hot beer in a sort
of an angry mood, were you surprised? Were you surprised to see this sort of
a reaction?
PM: Oh, no, naz. a bit because for quite a long time the leaders of the Mataungan
movement had made it clear that they were going to stretch every nerve to get as
many of their supporters in there as they could and put on this kind of reception.
I expected it.
Q. Are you concerned about the Mataungan Association? How so you see them
as an organisation?
PM: Well it is very difficult to say. I think that they have now reached a stage
where their leaders at any rate are adopting the attitude " We are not interested
in any laws of any kind. We, in fact, are the Government. We are going to do
what we want about everything. I think that their illegal movement into land is
dangerous. I think that the tactics they have adopted of beating up those Tolai
who disagree with them is also dangerous......
Q. You have pretty good evidence of that?
PM: Oh yes. And I don't believe they are genuinely interested in settlements of
what they claim to be grievances. Now, I say that for this reason. Long ago,
months and months ago when the question of the Multi -Racial Council came up,
I spoke, in Canberra, to Mr. Kaputin, who is one of their leaders, and I said to
him then that if the Mataungans felt it was reasonable we could have a referendum
to see whether most of the Tolai on the Gazelle Peninsula wished a Multi-Racial
Council or not, but he refused to have one. He refused to have a secret
referendum. Hie again refused, when I was up there this time. And before I
went there this time, I asked that the Mataungan members should sit down and
discuss their worries. If they had land problems, they could discuss those.
If they had any problems of any kind, let us sit down and talk about them. And
they flatly refused to have any discussions whatsoever, any talks whatsoever.
So I don't really think they are interested in s ettling disputes so much as creating
t hem.
Q. I noticed you earlier referred to some of the things that perhaps could
be learned or perhaps could occur in New Guinea as had happened in some of the
emerging African nations, but do you feel that we have learned something from
the problems of the emerging African nations in dealing with New Guinea?
PM: I don't think the problems are the same myself. L. spite of there being
some land difficulties, the Administration has in fact over the years taken great
care to try and ensure that the land remained in the ownership of the local people.
It has been one of the difficulties in fact of development that it has been very hard
to discover who did own land which was required for actual civic development as
distinct from private development. I think there is one problem it is not
the problem of advancing towards political self-government because that is
happening. It is not the problem of finding more and more local civil servants
because that is happening. It is not the problem of handing over internal
administration in greater degrees and so on, because that is happening. But
I thir.:; there is a difficulty of more indigenous participation in businesses... garages
and businesses generally, This is something which I believe must be fostered.
It is being specifically fostered at Bougainville, fcr example...
Q. That corporation....
PM: Yes, and in the development of the Arawa township, for example by the
Administration itself. Certain businesses are going to be financed by the
Development Bank for the indigenous people, if they have got any hope at all of
making a go of it. In other instances, we are going to seek 49 per cent at
least equity for the indigenous people, hut in other areas..... Moresby has sort
of grown up, rather.
Q. I would like to get down time is pressing with us one or
two other areas. I think last financial year, or the financial year just ending,
the Australian taxpayer gave New Guinea a grant of $ 96 million which,
incidentally, is 58 per cent of the Territory's total receipts. Now this must
increase as everything goes up. It never goes down these days. Now are
Australians happy being a colonial power at this price, do you believe?
PM: I don't think they are a colonial power.
Q. You don't like that word. I've used it twice now....
PM: I don't think this is a colony. A colony is an area of land... well it
always has been in my book.... an area of land which has been taken over and run
for the benefit of some colonising power, and I don't believe this is happening at
all. But we gave $ 96 million as a grant, part of it was for recurrent running
expenses and part of it for development. You say this must increase. I sought
to make it clear when I was up in the Territory that as political responsibility
is assumed by the people in the Territory themselves, so they must assume
more responsibility for raising their own revenue, And indeed what we propose
is that there should be two grants made by Australia, one for adding to the
revenue raised in the Territory for recurrent expenses of government and that
will be under the control of the Administrator's Executive Council. That will / 7
be allocated and spent by them which is a big step -forward. But I would expect that
the grant from Australia over the years ahead I am riot talking about next year
in that component would reduce and the amount raised from the Territory would
increase. The second grant we would make would be for general development
purposes. That would be made under the control of Australia and as years go
by, as the Territory becomes more viable economically, as it gets a good
economic base, that too should be able to be reduced at some stage.
Q, I wonder if I could ask you these questions quickly, and get rather quick
answers from you without destroying them. How powerful do you believe
Mr. -iaputin of the Mataungan As sociationi to be?
PM: I think he has got quite a lot of power over about half the Tolal people and
nowhere else?
Q. What do you think of his New Guinea Development Corporation?
PM.: From what I know of it, if it is as is described, wiell, fine let him go
ahead and do it. Nobody is stopping him, anyway.
Q. The Multi-Racial Council, what is its future in the light of the
Mataungan opposition?
PM: It depends on whether most of the people in the area want to have a
Multi-Racial Council or not. We have sought to find that out. If most of them
don't, then there is nothing saying...
Q. They could win, you know they could win....
PM: Well, fiA* ne. I mean~, what does that matter? That at least settles the
question of what most people want. And hen you have an all native council.
It is very nearly an all-Tolai Council now. Very nearly. 1 have forgotten the
numbers. But there is only a very small fraction of European and Chinese on it.
Q. Turning now to the home front, Prime Minister, we have heard murmurings
in recent weeks about inflation, overheated economy and so on from the Federal
Treasurer, Mr. Bury. Now, how do you view the economy at the moment?
PM: I think the best thing I can do is to refer you to the last Treasury White
Paper which came out a short time ago which pointed out that actions taken by the
Government in its last Budget had reduced the prezssures on the labour market
and on the demand in the economy for the last two or three months of this
financial year and had damped downr what had previously been described as an
overheating economy. And this pap,, er also points out there are prospects for
very great growth in this coming finiancial year but that we need to be careful
to ensure that we don't allow demand to become so great that it would be followed
by inflation.
Q. Well, now this is interesti-ng because you have been under some pressure
from the Federal Liberal Council and also from your State bodies to fulfil this
promise of yours during the elections for taxation relief -for middle and lower
income earners. Ncw do you see this as being a very real thing in the near
future?
PM: I see it as being a part of the Budget which I don't discuss before the
Budget comes out.
Q. I realise that and I don't intend to frame it in that context....
PM: But you can't frame it in any other context.
Q. You think you have got me on this one at this particular stage?
PM: No, I don't but I have just constantly refused to discuss what might be in
the Budget.
Q. But you do agree that there has been a little bit of pressure on you from
your own Party bodies to look at this promise and that you are conscious of it?
PM: I think that I would sooner discuss this whole matter with you perhaps
on August 19.'
Thank you very much Prime Minister.