SPEECH BY i .11OJME MINISTLL 29 i1E R O HON. UG
MENZIE," ! N THi[' HIOUSE -OF REPr-ZLENT JTIV. ES ON THURSDAY
24+ TH MAI: CH4 .19
Mr. Spoak., er,, Acoreseuatation of this bill marks an
historic occasion folr thne national carcital, and, therefore, for
the nation. The Canberra University College was established by
ordinance in Decemb: Dr, 1 929, Trie Australian National Univer?-
sity was established. under? tho Australian National University
Act 194+ 6-4+ 7, in whicha proviSion was made in two sections, not
directly for the incor.. por-, at-o. of the Canbe--ra University
College, but giving poc+.. ver undeio university statute -to incorporate
the Canberrla -Un-iesity Coll-ee. Therefor. eatog te
Canberra University llege was not chosen to be the body from
which the National Univoarsity would spring the possibility was
obviously cent err -la t4 -0at tjftite tha: t when thr Ai.' stralian
National University came i; nto f_ 17l or~ fration, and wihen the
college beca-ie sufficielltlj advanocd in its own development,
the tw6 bodies might bccome associated -in on!:.
The Australian Nution.-J. Ur.-*-ersity le,+ is lat ion was in
the charge of tho Iiin . ctor for Pcist--ir Recc: st-! u-ction, Mr.
Dedrnan. and 1 tace tlis 0-p;-OC, 1 uni-cy to say to the House that his
name will always be h. rro-. aby associatod withi tha-t achievement.
He said upon tho int. 1oduiction of the b-ill-that the Government
had had the hel. o Lxdv.' Lce of' thaconcell of th,! college. He
referred to the fact that then col1-o-ha6 a._. iays l~ ooked forward
to the cre, t!-rn cli' -iuie 4ancL that r mdhold. very steadfastly
to its fideas foilrmany y'r. Refer-inag to his own bill
to create thie I* ust-al-. in Nat. orno -LLi-. c-. csit-f ho said
It will-be long row bof---cr! t61qv s-e h ideas translated
it oi.
Well, perhia-s it h2-, a lPl L~~ rthai 1+ ight have been
expected, bu., t + ia thie beenr o'uite remarkable
growth in bot.. 1. Lj~ f* Le--, 1 at~ m the notion of
eventual as so cia-, ti. on 7h sf peoiple on what
I will call. bc-h ~ r; yea-s the i~ ational
University, or 4its c u: tln ; h _ ccYcaotl lo ge, rr its
repesetatve., eVQO~ hO. orros-] tion to as: socdati on -' eeling
that it r4_:.: git 10or% 2, rt b r'-f th~ oge t 1-1-But a
decision had t3 bo nta&( . X During
the whole of Amt'elh DL'nh~ eLnvr
sity of Melbor) i. nc oon ' o h ranting of deg-
rees and fo. VY _-PJ c~ er 2, 1t te wo of the colleg-e
in the relevant fac-. 1L'. ies., Tho Cncfi the UniverLsity of
Melbourne some litetrQagro hat it did not feel
that it was Practical tocf'Jiate ~ oc~ infor very much
longer. Lii point oZ. t! he o-1 y+-nl terminal dateoh
associavtion was thae e. of 7.9' 9.
I rnsffer. nuu_ bo-r .(. 3u1fl wiLth reporesentatives
of botha t'hz)ñ anKo th ocl-loe becaus.. ' his is a
matter whicha has deorn v i1 ere_+ ro ed ::; ocae-rn d, any event my
department eaibrac. s ti. E. ac ii t: e. _ f o~ taian Na ional
Unvriy. P irrv-lv i-h. Cc_-vouiy'-ent was aLbcycn to cone to
a decision I ind. icatee. t L-t i1t vou'ld 1edsrb1 i'te nvr
sity of M/ elbourne ccr*. 1c ' -' a-no n xtnsL of one year, thereby
giving us a nc-v: a: L. b erL -F request
was con; ide ed ! Dr vce Cornc-i.. of the_-University.) of Melbourne
and thie corc c. acOJ to it.' hat ino-ans that the new
organisation in Cabr: utbe r-C-. y Jo operati-: by the end of
this calendar so th. Iat'. tli,_ nu-r acadom-ic ye a2r ' Jj61. will be
conducted with a ttm ce~ A n ti-I tGE rums o-f the proposed act.
SsIi. j Zl op) i e* lml.: ef the Government and of all
those corncerned, that chior-e is e~ i rofound arLPreciation of
the wo-rk that has bcoe--oacc, r. e-d by the University of Melbourne.
The Canberra eLec annide strth e., AuStralian National
University will always be profoundly indebted to it. I acknowledge
that debt writh great pleasure.
Jhen the ultimate decision was taken that there should
be association and not a development of the college into a
separate entity, thereby providing two universities in Canberra,
I asked the representatives of the college and of the university
to get together and to work out the broad outline and, as far as
possible, the details of an association which, in their view,
would work satisfactorily. I am very happy to say that from the
time when they were asked to do that, every attitude of hostility
to the change seemed to me to disappear. They sat down together;
they worked together? they rose to the highest standards
of their occupation, and in the result they rwere able to produce
to me the terms of their agreement, and two or three points of
disagreement, some reeks before the date that I had asked them
to observe. Before I go on to describe the scheme, I think that I
should say that we thought it desirable to reinforce our minds
by reference to the chairman of the famous Murray committee, by
reference to the committee's report, and by reference to the
newly constituted Universities Commission under the chairmanship
of Sir Leslie Martin. From those sources we obtained marked
confirmation of the idea that there should be an association and
that there should not be a continued separation of the university
and the college.
Perhaps I should indicate quite briefly the princiF.'
reasons for our conclusion that the two bodies ought to be associated;
The first is that if the Canberra University College
were to become a university of itself, as, say, " he C:.-berra
Unive-sity, it would become and remain a second-rate university
unless it were able to do all those things which a university of
standing normally expects to do. In other words, it would not
be able to confine itself to first degrees or even to the degree
of maste It would have to look forward to research work, post
-graduate work, and the further it proceeded into thatfield,
which is a legitimate university field, the more would its work
tend to overlap some of the work being done in the present
Australian National University. Daplication of that kind is not
to be readily contemplated in a comparatively smell city.
In the second pl. ace, we thought it would be very difficult
to justify the existence of two separate universities in
Canberra, considering its population, at a time when the pressure
for second and third universities in gren. t centres of population
is mounting eve: y day. There is a tremendous amount of
university development going on in Australia now, and I can assure
honorable members that the pressure for it is beyond all
belief. It might interest honorable members if I told them that
the investigations of the Universities Commission so far have
shot. wn that even the estimate made by the nurray Committee of the
future undergraduate population in Australia an estimate which
the committee thought was liberal, and which I am bound to say I
too thought was liberal has been quite falsified already. The
numbers eming forward are greater than anybody three years ago
imagined would be the case.,
In point of fact it is a great thing from the point of
view of Australia to be able to say that by the end of another
eight or nine years, on the present estimate of increased population
and increased demand for university training, there will
be in Australia~ if we can meet the demand, more undergraduates
per 1,000 of population than in the United States, Canada, Great
Britain or New Zealand. I am sure that honorable members will
agree that that is all to che good. It eoans, howeJor, that there
is a tremendous demand in the big centres, and in other centres
perhaps less big but still very important, In those circumstances
the existence of two separate universities in Canberra would
be very hard to defend,
In the third place, Sir, \. JCel tha) t the) ro would be a
great advantage in associ., ting a body, in uihichi mos' of the students
are undergaduates with a body in which all the students,
readers and professors are gradu,, tes of a liigh-order, This w~ ill
give to the undeñ' gradu,. tes the benefit of an association, even
if only occasionally, iritht eminent specialists in their branches
of knowledge,, or study. To take a simple example, how many times
have we heard a great physicist say prou " I worked under'
Rutherford"? I am pe5-ffectly certain that this association will
hgarvaed uaat es plbeondyd idu ndcefrf ec-tth eb ebrt-ohad_-w -aycso. v er Tohfe ict hper esoenon cef inosft iatun tiuonnd erw ill
have a stimulatdn, effect on thosejs who arc -_ ngagi-_ ng in research,
and the impact on the undergraduate of men of distinction and
of gfreat intellect is bound. to be strong and memocraL_ oe
Those were reasons whiich cormnded thei1asolvos to US,~
but I thoughit it desirable to go hack to Sir Keith 1ñ 4u) rraY hienseif
and to the Universities Co17-rnis s _ oi Let mne ro-r-ind thc Hlouse of
what the Murray Committee said in its famous rcpo,:. I shnal
quote thi-E one passage-
It should be possible, in our view, to devise a term
constitution gi'v ing to thae College al. l theo . nk:) ndcrece, ioperation
which bothi the Nab'-ional Univorsity andl the Cc-,-
logro desire, and yet ma'iekin-it possiblu for studeo2-Lts ait the
College to receive degrees of thu Nation~ al Uni versity anr.
for common services to bo org; ani zed and riisrn ninod xjithor 7
unneccssary dupJA n,, iticn,.
That was not a definito sta'emcntl but, so to F3-orK, .4t gave a
broad hint of the way in which thc mind of the comm. nJceeo Iwac
running. When 1 saw, Sir Ke\' ith. Muralray in Engjlr ad las'--
put to him the problem that T had been lookiLg at, in. ic e
how my mind was running asnd I invited him to Cohallun ' o u'hat I~
had in mind, if he thL~ proer So Lrfo hlegn t
he said that he felt tina:;, t-he case for inrgate o" uneso
bodies was complute, 1 jhciu re feried hematter to ti,-a Ai'. st-m
lian Universities Comm ission to -get it11s inde) pende3nt1 nO ex-oort
opinion. Phe co: iTxoOnr ' t o to mesetting, c1-1-( ' wnios
view. It said
The Commission htas consineC~ red th-is iprobien,_ i Ti t; K
ledge of the facts ~; dV40-, S recently put bfr aie
and has unan4rnouF~ jy concludca that some of' a,. soc -ation
is both desirablo and ar-) acticable. IT nc s
believe that if the concept of alSsociation is accep. ted it
can be more oaE: iU . y achie) vod now.% then litto-,, . Bfr
reaching its decision to recoi-ioond in favour1 of associati. 1on,
the Commission gave some th-ough-t to-I the rnean3 bywhh : L
could be achieved. It seems to the Cornmissior: n~; e~ a
that there should be one ' n~ ttboteo ho
Australian National tjn-iesJity, and thiat it should culve one
Council, with a Vice Chccallor as its chie*. f wciv
officer.
Then, Sir, we made our decision,. Jo put theio -attor to the-1 ' eT
bodies and, as I have said, theoy respondedC with " mra
promptitude and with extreme cdw~~ Theiy worked ou a plar, o. 3
associoition, and we, hoeae1te -c he ad o poi,, nt' of
difference, Le whiich -7 shiall. 2ofoi, T. hinch '. as of : o'e n-atoriality,
cand there we-ire otie qitie miner, p o ns of dic nebut
on the whole the-i two bJodies agedon a srev'
It i-, ey be te ioh toc be lut. top.-L: ea~ ry, 1-t may he
thought, for cxamnpe thiat t-he . oe. 1nc-Ll is a l ttl-e tuo largeo.
It may well be that tllat IF so, but 1. asi: 1-onorable( m-mbers, i. r
consideri -ng' the balanoirng of vsicue,, 7 interests inthe a~ xaivistr. a.
tive structure, to boa-.. in rf-i-nd thet It has not. eSy to get
the Canberra University Cc3. eo to-fi., wr eut7, 1si. on ofa jo.
arato existence as a separate unive. rs-Jty, orl, for-. that ,_ attoer,
to cet the Australian National UniLversity to a c c pt a pDo -i tiJon
in which its degrees could be g-, ive-n first degrees or as
Mastar's degroes its degrees being g7iven at -oresent only in the
higher reaches opscholairship and science.,
Under these circumstances, I did not iuldisposed
nor would the House, I aim sure to hagg-le about some details on
which the two bodies had agreced, meirely because 1 -thought that,
to use a modern phrase, thkey could have been more(-stream-lined,
On the whole, I think it is g-ood scheme. I am suire that it
will work. It will work all the bettelr Lt trio begi. nning if
there is an atmosphere of -, oodwill,
The) re was one point of difference t-o vA-icla 1 said I
would refer. It relates to the awrarding ofL thedere of doctor
in thei Austrcxd. ian National University the Ctc,.' e e of Doctor of
Philosophy or Doctor of Science. The pre-s ent _ raULtie'Lna._ University
attaches supreme importance, to thei pr-inciple that the
standards on which those degrees are awalrded should be of thie
highest, and that those standards should be maintained so that
world recognition and prcstig. Ye will attach to the dere. That
of course, is completely roight, The i,, etiena1 Univer-sity believed,
theorefore, that thrr oiugh-u -to be controcl from-i its
side of the university eve:: the stauldards for doctoral degrees.
The Canberra University CoTI-ege rep Cosuntativ7cs, on the, other
han, flt-hat ' hat might s gestthat doctorates in faculties
not at present emjbraced by t-iu HeJUt-LonslD Univo-rsity ivould be beyond
their power, and that this vould in-hibi', t the recr-uitl-eint of
men of the first quality to their toaching ste*,. answer
tima ae-ndIam happy to say that i ccpp, a ble to
both sides is that.-, under the statate, cn years the derre
of doctor shall be based on ste@ nJ,-: ds by thie
modern replacement of * the pre sent Au1s t: alia F~' att onal University,
that is, the Institute of Advanced S'-udics. Land ~ h; after ten
years the Thole matter si. ll be det," t xrith no doubt by-, university
statute by the council, Thcby ti..' at tirc wl hv
soettled down e~ nd riill 1ound its fea. t, tiha--t tiimn the members
of the council will have , chiovod a comml-, on Lt-ndrstanding of
1. rhat is best for the : nsuitutior. as a I hi. a p ' py t o s ay
that that ten-year pcaod ifs acceptab"_ le to both o te nterasts,
if i may so describe -thorm.
I should Just like to say . haG tiee ' lhtchLiLs
icnisgs otcoi ,, tthioins, unit iviesr snitoyt Ltion d beg ouinngd erfsulo-oct. h letih ai-tf iru Swte :* r~ eol atos -ecgree
wiill be, in some tray, inhibited fi-c~ _ 3a~ J 1a-. 4g nh
deg) rees. It may very . rell. be that in the 1, orderg'-raduoteU-body -T
will describe it moire prucisely in a momeint there wil be facultios
which are not in the present Austr,* 1 ln Nut-' onal University
and that in those faculties provision nil fo-re,-
se3arch and furthejr teaching and, of cou.. cse, fol.-hig her de-rocs.
I do not want it to be thought for one ric. nent th. at th1-is new, body
is to be divided into the shee,,-and the -oats the sheep being
those ; Jh-o browse on the highe r pastureLs of researc -and the goats
being, thosd who, as some us have had the oX'v) Crience: of do-ing,
struggle through _ 1nd takel c. first degreeC-. That wl. not be the
position at all.
Mr. U. 4hitlan Like the inner and outer Cbn>
MR. MENZIES: Yes, ike the inner arnd ctrCat.*._, l2 õ L exce-, it
there are no goats in either of those, 7atue adviu. c iGhe
honorable member not to tem'ptL on thsquos~ f. c->.
One other matter that X-. as nut. upat jThe tine ( lhon we
uwere lookin:, at vieee. diff-, r~ nces th-re i 123 ' TZ tii
question whothejr some of the morinbers to be a_ cintedo-_ to thec
council by the Govern--Gonxr-al n CoiUociI sh-oulcd be ajorointod
after consultation with'. ce.-tain sr. ccifi~ o&: e :, sucL , as the
Academy of Science, the Humanities. o Counci. l and. on.
Mr. ; Jhitlam Includingz thae Social. ScJience., ~ ecrc Council.
MR. MENZIES Yes, all of them are in the same promises that
building with which we are now familiar. I indicated that I
did not think very highly of those provisions which find their
way occasionally into statutes under which, when a nomination is
to be made to a body of this kind by the Governor-General in
Council, he is placed by statute under some rustriction or some
obligation to other bodies. For myself, I am bound to say that
so long as I have anything to do with this matter it will be a
great pleasure to consult such bodies because they can contribute
a great deal in this field. I have no doubt that that would
become the regular practice, but I did not think it was desirable
to put it as an inhibiting element in statute. I have had
representations from one or two other bodies claiming that they
ought to be allowed to nominate or to be consulted, and to them
I made the same answer.
I shall summarize pretty briefly, what the scheme is.
The government of the university is to be vested in a council of
38 persons. As I said before, this-is larger than we first expected.
It had been hoped to make it about 30. But still on
examination, if honorable members look at the constitution of
the council in the bill, they will see that there has been a
genuine attempt to give a balanced administrative authority.
I may say also that, although this is not in the act
itself, as honorable memburs know there is already provision
for a convocation with certain functions. Although it is not
necessary for us to legislete in this measure about that matter
I did venture to say to them that I hoped that the new council
would consider the possibility of adding to the convocation, as
members of it, members of the Federal Parliament who happened to
be university graduates. I think there is a bit of merit in
th it. It would give more honorable members than could hope to
have it at present, fairly close contact with what goes on.
Jhether that suggestion will be agreeable or not I do not know,
but it is not a statutory provision and it does not arise in
this bill. Apart from these matters, Sir, what has been done, in
this broad, is to take the present research sections and constitute
them that zone inside the university as an Institute of
Advanced Studies and the rest of it as a School of General
Studies. This is merely to distinguish between what has gone on
in one and what has gone on in the other.
By having these two separate bodies each with its own
professorial boards but under the council and the general administration
of the vice-chancellor and with contact at all levels
to produce co-operation, it is felt by both of the parties to
this matter, and certainly by the Government and myself, that we
will develop a harmonious institution without, in any way,
threatening what is vital in this matter the high standard of
those research degrees which it has been the main object, or one
of the main objects, of the Australian National University, to
produce. That is really its second object, the first being, of
course, to conduct research and to add to the general store of
knowledge. As for the bill itself, it is not unduly long and it
is, in 1l rge measure, almost entirely I -would hope entiroly
self-explanatory. But what I have said will perhaps assist
honorable members when they read the bill. When they do I am
sure that they will cgree very warmly that this is not to be
regarded merely as a marriage of convenience or a marriage under
threat. It is to be regarded as fulfilling what was the ultimate
-ibition regarding this university to make it a. n all-embracing
university, one that will Cive the highest possible advantages
in instruction and in reading to those who come as
undergraduates and at the simo time make an honorable name in
the world of learning and so bring great credit to this country.