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PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER, THE HON P J KEATING MP
INTERVIEW WITH KERRY O'BRIEN, ABC TV 7: 30 REPORT,
14 DECEMBER 1995
E& OE PROOF COPY
KOB: Prime Minister, in what circumstance would Australian troops go to the
assistance of Indonesia?
PM: Kerry, I think, you have got to see this agreement in context. For a
start its title, An Agreement on Maintaining Security, security is not
simply about external threats, it is about the whole environment of the
region. It is about the foreign policy and trade policies of the
countries. It is about the way we organise ourselves. What we are
saying here is that Australia and Indonesia have a coincidence of
views and interests in the strategic outlook of the region. And in that
context, it says it will consult in the event of a challenge to either
country. It will consult and decide what approach should be taken,
whether it should be taken jointly or singularly.
KOB: Ok, but you have acknowledged today that there are circumstances in
which Australian military assistance might be given. Can you give us a
hypothetical instance, I think it is important for Australians to
understand those circumstance because you are talking about a big
step.
PM: Just understand this, this is a reciprocal agreement where Indonesia,
in that circumstance you are speaking of, would also be likely to be
supporting Australia. We have in place now, under the Five Power
Defence Agreement, for the non-reciprocal defence of Malaysia and
Singapore an agreement which commits Australia to discuss, consult
and perhaps defend those two states without any commitment by them
to us. The key thing about this agreement, Kerry, is that Indonesia is
the first Asian country to put its hand up and say it would consider
joining Australia in this sort of an agreement.
KOB: Ok, now, to try to understand this further. In June this year, Defence
Minister Robert Ray endorsed a defence study by Professor Paul Dibb
which warned that uneven economic growth in Asia could threaten
peace in the region and that report identified China as a potential
source of volatility. Do you agree with that scenario?
PM: I think you may recall a couple of weeks ago I went to the Osaka
APEC meeting where we adopted the Action Agenda on trade
liberalisation coming from President Soeharto's Indonesian meeting.
What that is very much about is resourcing East Asia, clearing away
the road blocks, the constraints, the trade and non-trade barriers, the
resource constraints to keeping the massive machinery of East Asia
moving. Not just south-east Asia, but China, Korea, Japan, all those
huge resources. I think, it is very important that given that East Asia
has shown that it can bring their economies up, can distribute wealth,
can have a rising living standard which we have seen in places like
Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and we are seeing it in Indonesia, in
Malaysia, the challenge with China is also to get an evenness of
income growth and that means resourcing it properly. So, APEC is
very much about that, it is about keeping the growth running through
East Asia and resourcing it.
KOB: I understand that kind of scenario you are putting, but the other side of
that coin is the one that Robert Ray virtually endorsed in June this
year. I am asking you if you acknowledge the other side of the coin
which is, that if the growth is uneven China could pose a threat in
terms of volatility in the region. Is it that kind of potential threat that
you are trying to anticipate in this agreement with Indonesia?
PM: Is it a threat from China? No. But are you saying could there be
tensions within the Chinese society and economy by uneven growth?
Well, of course there could. The fact of the matter is that the way you
maintain security is that you cover these bases like APEC, like free
trade in goods and services, like proper regional defence cooperation,
like a harmonious view between member governments and member
states of these organisations in the area. That is what much of this is
about. But, it is also about, in the event that there was an external
threat to either one of us, we would consult one another.
KOB: I want to move on with the time that is left. You say that the treaty is
premised on our respect for the sovereignty, political independence
and international integrity of all countries. Dare I ask it, what about
East Timor's sovereignty?
PM: East Timor is a province of Indonesia. There are problems in East
Timor in respect of human rights issues which this treaty doesn't affect
at all. This in no way affects the internal developments in Indonesia or
any attitude we may take to them. Let me take the view, I mean, I see
some reports already by members of the East Timor groups and
lobbies here and others speaking for them, they seem to think,
fallaciously, that some alienation of the relationship between Australia
and Indonesia our largest neighbour will in some way help their
cause. The only thing that is going to help their cause from Australia
is, basically, interventions by the Australian government for and on
their behalf in a constructive climate of cooperation with the state of
Indonesia.
KOB: But, you have been doing that for years and there appears, in the end,
to be no progress in resolving that issue.
PM: Look at the relationship with Indonesia today and the culmination of
this agreement compared to, say, three years ago or four years ago.
KOB: But, we are talking about East Timor.
PM: Yes, but I am talking about the breadth of the relationship. Look at the
progress we have jointly had with our collaboration in APEC or in
Cambodia or in any of these other places. The whole relationship with
Indonesia is now thicker, it has got more struts to it, it is more
meaningful, it is not just simply a narrow foreign policy relationship any
more. Therefore, the government of Australia is always going to be in
a far stronger position to deal with Timor in the Indonesian context
than in any other environment. Kerry, this notion that the Timor lobby
in some way expect Australia to disrupt its relationship exclusively with
Indonesia on the Timor issue, is not going to help the Timorese
people.
KOB: By the same token, the Timor issue, it would seem, is not going to go
away, it does seem to be in an appalling situation and Patrick Walters,
an Australian correspondent in Jakarta who was senior adviser to Kim
Bealzey when he was Defence Minister, wrote last week that the
Indonesians appear to have run out of ideas on East Timor. The talk
of special political autonomy, for example, has lapsed. Where can we
expect them to go from here and what do you regard as an acceptable
resolution of that problem?
PM: It is for them to decide which way they wish to tackle the problems
which are now quite endemic there and they are serious.
KOB: But, what guidance do you seek to give them with this special
relationship that you have?
PM: Understand this point, this is a massive archipelago of huge cultural
diversity in ethnic and religious terms. It is the biggest Muslim country
in the world. It is, outside of this context of Timor, a country which has
shown quite substantial tolerance to religious and ethnic groupings. It
is used to managing diversity. This is now a rutted in problem for it
and it is something we have indicated we would like to help with. I do
this regularly in my discussions with President Soeharto as well as say
when ever we believe human rights are being affected, forthrightly put
our view and we will continue to do that. But Kerry, the important point
is this, we are not going to hock the whole Indonesian relationship on
Timor. Now, that is what the lobby has got to understand. It is not
going to happen because let me just say this to you Kerry, a Prime
Minister's first duty is the security of his country and I have always
regarded our, if you like, settlement with Indonesia whom we have
embraced from its post colonial period as one of the primary building
blocks of Australian security and foreign policy.
KOB: And you have made that clear, but very quickly, last question. Does it
matter to you in the framework of that relationship, that you always
seem to be going to President Soeharto, he doesn't come to you and
now you are off to Jakarta again to sign this treaty on Monday.
Superficially at least, that doesn't suggest an even relationship?
PM: Look at the results. The largest free trade arrangement in the world in
APEC in the world 63 per cent of world GDP. The only genuine
north south arrangement in the world. Look at this agreement which
would have been inconceivable just a few years ago.
KOB: But, do you concede that superficially that does not suggest an even
relationship. How many times have you been there?
PM: No, my frequency there or his visits here are not measure of the
importance of the bilateral relationship or the way in which the
interests of Australia and Indonesia are accommodated. For a start,
this agreement is the only one of its kind Indonesia has with anyone
and let me repeat a point I made earlier, it is the only Asian country
that has actually put its hand up to say it would contemplate such an
arrangement with Australia about Australia's security.
KOB: And I'm going to have to cut you off there, I'm sorry, because we have
to cross to Sarajevo to Tusla in a moment, but thanks very much for
joining us.
PM: Good, Kerry.
KOB: Thank you.
ends