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PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER, THE HON P J KEATING MP
INTERVIEW WITH JOHN MACKENZIE, RADIO 4CA, CAIRNS
18 APRIL 1995
E& OE PROOF COPY
JM: With me in the studio today is the Prime Minister of Australia, Paul
Keating. Good morning and welcome.
PM: Good morning John good to be here.
JM: You are up here frequently I would imagine 2 or 3 times a year there
has got to be somethng about the place. I notice today front page of
the Cairns Post we are considered to be the best place in Australia to
live, as far as capital cities are concerned you have had the message
for a couple of years now?
PM. I have. And I think one of the reasons, of course, is the climate, and
the easy-going nature of the place. But, whether you are wealthy or
relatively poor, you can still enjoy the good weather and this is the
difference between living In a really nice temperate place than a cold
place. Here, nature Is available to everybody, and that Is the great
strength of It. It is also a growth area, and there Is an excitement
about Far North Queensland that there wasn't 6 or 8 or 10 years ago,
and by and large, people are doing it well up here that is, they are
developing the place well, sensibly and keeping the best things the
rainforests, the core tourism assets, but at the same time developing a
strong commercial hub. So, it's a good place to come, and I am quite
sure It's a good place to live. I'm not surprised at that finding, at all.
JM: You had a crack at the hill slopes last time you were up here, and
when you left Tom Pyne reloindered by saying next time he's going to
have a crack at the hill slopes, tell him to bring his wallet with him.
PM: Tom's a good fellow, but it is all a matter of taste rather than wallets.
Anyone who carves the side out or a hillside to put a brick veneer up
there, ought to be severely rebuked.
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JM; I Well, Tom would like a buy back scheme.
PM: In fact, we have got... . the largest buy back scheme we have got
running was the money I put In the last Budget $ 24 million scheme
to buy back the land in the Hole in the Heart of the Daintree: that subdivision
In the Daintree, which Joh put through in the 70s, and that
threatens, of course, one of the core tourism assets of Cairns and the
surrounding area and that is the Daintree rainforest. If the power
cable had crossed the river, you would have seen a town develop
there and it would have made an absolute mess of the Daintree, so in
terms of bringing your wallet with you, I brought a $ 24 million wallet to
that one. By the way, the Queensland Government is supporting us
here dollar for dollar on that Wayne Goss and I worked this out
together to try and save the Daintree. But the Daintree is one of the
great assets, and of course, that came on top of the $ 86 million that I
provided as Treasurer to Graham Richardson when the thing was first
declared. But Itis one of the great, great places of Australia as a
consequence, so we have . and can I just say that I gave Mike
Berwick $ 9 million for the road the sealed road up to the Daintree-so
I had my wallet out again then.
JMV: Have you had a drive along that yet?
PM:-I have, and 1 think they have done a tremendous job on the road and
the shoulders, and of course, they are putting the native species of
trees back, and Peter Dodd who is with me In the studio we went up
there last time I was here and had a look around, and the important
thing is that when the heavy rains come, the shoulders don't run away
you don't lose the road. I think It is a good quality road, and putting
those native species of trees along it, really means it is going to give
tourists the effect of a rainforest right through, instead of just a broad
acre dusty place as itw as.
JMV: Even though you spend a lot of time here and you are not actually on
the job, you would get to talk to a lot of people in the tourism industry
you would realise how crucial It is here, but I wonder from your own
perspective how important you see the industry, you know, on the
national scale is your Federal Government really conscious of the
Importance of it?
PM: Can I just say, on behalf of the Government, this is the industry we
largely created before the dollar was floated in 1983, there was no
tourism Industry to speak of, other than small motels etc. You ' look at
Port Douglas for instance, or Cairns, before 1983. Financial
deregulation, the capacity of businesses to acquire funds, the strength
of the stock market through the period, plus the competitiveness of
Australia Australia today Is 40% more competitive than 1983 that
means that every time you sell a touiism place to a foreign person, you
have got a 40% better chance of doing it today than in 1983. That
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created a new Industry In Australia International tourism. And I think
It Is very Important to keep that the Labor Party takes a iot of pwld Im
the fact that we created it, and that we have had the support of the
main players In the Industry. And let me just tell you this John, that
recently I had a meeting with Goh Chok Tong, the Prime Minister of
Singapore, and he was saying that he would like his community to
travel more outside of Singapore, and to come to Australia
particularly young people, particularly during their holiday periods
and he is going to be leading a tourism mission to Australia in the
middle of the year. So In other words, I think and I said to him that
Far North Queensland was a place which was accessible by plane
from Singapore to Cairns Is a reasonable short flight and it has
tremendous opportunity for, If you like, tieing a fair bit if you like,
tieing traffic to this part of the country.
JMV: It might all be very fine but we have got the accommodation problem
we have got this problem here now that we are rapidly running out of
beds, and this conjecture almost perpetual as it is about the
prospects of a bed tax Isn't encouraging people to invest in that area.
Can you give us anything definitive on the future of that bed tax.,
PM: Well, John Hewson and the Liberal Party tried to put the bed tax in last
election, with the consumption tax, which would have applied the
to all goods and services, including beds. And we made the point at
the time strongly -that this would be an impost on the tourism
Industry. And given the fact that was emerging from a slow period, one
it could do without. I can only reiterate the sentiment I made on that
occasion.
JMI: All right, I want to stick with local issues now, so we are going to go to
local calls there Is a fair bit of pressure, as you can well Imagine, from
the Southern media on the line this morning saying " can we find out
more on the Carmen Lawrence Issue", but we will get back to that after
some local calls. We have got a few minutes up the sleeve...
PM: That's not even news.
JM: All right. We will go to our first call go ahead.
C: Hello.
PM. How are you there?
JM. You are talking to the Prime Minister.
C: Oh, am I? This is Sandy Warren from the sub-contractor and suppliers
association, Mr Prime Minister.
PM: From the sub sorry?
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C: The sub-contractors and suppliers association. We are very, very
concerned at the Bankruptcy Act, and he 0eoDle go bankrupt
and only come back shortly after to get back into business again, and
then promptly go bankrupt again, and they are ripping our people off
by millions and millions of dollars, and causing great hardship. We are
also very concerned as how the Federal Government can give them
half a cent In the dollar tax and say ' Well, you can be back in there
soon and do It again"? 7
PM. I We don't say that these arrangements are largely agreed between
creditors. You have seen the more famous one recently with Mr Bond?
C: Yeah.
PM: It's nought to do with us -I mean, what's to do with us is the
prosecution of wilful acts, or criminal acts, against the companies
code. But where a set of creditors agree with somebody who owes
them money they will accept 10 cents In the dollar, or a cent in the
dollar that person then escapes the bankruptcy. So then that person
he or she is not a bankrupt, and then can carry on.
C-But surely the Government has some control over the Taxation
Department? That's taxpayers money, and nobody asked me if I was
happy with it.
PM: I don't follow your point about the taxpayers?
C: Well, that Taxation Department let him off on half a cent in the dollar,
the other thing is that in many other countries in the world once they
are bankrupt, they stay bankrupt until such time as they have paid all
their bills off.
PMV: Can I just say, Governments try to be sensible and friendly to people
one of the great claims in the past has been the Tax Office has gone in
to take Its claim first, leaving sub-contractors and other people like
yourself out in the cold. Now, that's been changed over the years, so if
the Tax Office if you like comes to a discussion amongst other
creditors, and there is a scheme of arrangement which everybody
agrees to, well then the person then escapes the bankruptcy. ft's a
matter, really, of how hard cend how little if you like people will take
from somebody who Is In this circumstance. I don't really think that the
Government can go and say " now, this person will be a bankrupt
forever"...
JM: We will have to move on we have got a few other people....
PMV: Mind you, there would be plenty of candidates for it, I can assure you.
I appreciate'the call.
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C: Hello?
PM: How are you there?
C: How are you? It's Steve here. I'm Ju st ringing up about the Oyster
Point development do you know what's going on here, because I was
born In Cairns and brought up In North Queensland and I think it's
shocking that Keith Williams should be allowed to build that resort
there. Do you know what is happening In the project with that?
PM: Well, the Commonwealth because it's got heritage implications we
are going out of our way to see that... . you know there was originally a
clearing away of some of this area some years ago...
C: Yeah.
PM. . and it was left in a very unsatisfactory state, including the clearing
away of the mangroves. Mr Williams is seeking to build this project,
but he will build it with the only with the the clearing of these kelp
beds and the rest will be done with scientific evaluation and monitoring
under the Commonwealth responsibility. Now, John Faulkner the
Environment Minister has made that abundantly clear. So, given the
fact that the Queensland Government too doesn't want to see a repeat
of the island development Hamilton Island or anything like it, which
Joh permitted In the 70s, the weights are on Mr Williams to produce
something which is far more environmentally pleasing, and does
justice to this wonderful place Hinchinbrook Island. Now, the
Queensland Government has taken principal responsibility for It but
we are in there looking after our responsibilities .( tape failure)., world
heritage areas.
JM: We are going to move straight on go ahead.
C: Hi John, its Kelly ( inaudible) here and I would like to speak to Mr
Keating.
PM. Yes how are you?
C: Paul, look, I'm just wanting to ask a question about vertical integration
could you explain to us what actually it is?
PM: What do you mean vertical integration In respect of any one thing, or
what does the concept mean?
C: We are talking about the tourism Industry, you know, like you say for
example, at Cairns Central School, a Singapore company bought the
site, and they are going to build a hotel there, and perhaps Singapore
Airlines Is going to fly people In a couple of years here to have
holidays here like you just said about the students travelling?
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PM. In relation to...
C: Will they book their hol idays In Singapore, and pay for them there, or
how will our economy benefit from the sale of Cairns Central School?
PM: The economy benefits many people try to have what is called these
vertically Integrated arrangements, where they own the tourism
property, they own the buses, they own fth gift shops, they own if you
like the whole kit and caboodle.
C: Right.
PM: But people do have to fly In, they fly in on all sorts of airlines
Including Australian owned airlines...
C: Right.
P M. A hey use the passenger facilities, they do end up spending money
outside the ( inaudible) resorts, so I think the whole notion of vertical
Integration Is a bit overdone. It's like, for instance, if you look at the
Shippan and Mitsui ownership of Mirage Port Douglas, many of those
people who have come from Japan end up in the Daintree or end up
out on the reef and lots of other places...
C: So, ( inaudible) we are going to benefit?
PM; Absolutely. I think....
C: Well wouldn't you think then that a bed tax would probably be a good
idea, so that the Government is gathering more money to compensate
for what they have lost by t people buying their tickets overseas?
PMV: I think the main benefit to Australia comes from the general Gross
Domestic Product that comes from the provision of these services. So
youj Add In n~ tinn:% I pmndur-by making thinge, you add to it by
providing things and that's where the Commonwealth gets the benefit.
It doesn't need a bed tax to get the benefit of tourism
C: you're breaking up, I can hardly hear you.
PM: I'm just saying it doesn't need to get a bed tax for the benefit of
tourism. This Is the point I made to Dr Hewson in the last Federal
election when he wanted to Impose one on the industry.
C: How do you feel about the fact that public assets like Cairns Central
School have been sold to overseas Investors?
PM: Well, I wasn't aware of that but again it depends where the school
populations are and where the assets need to be. It's like the closure
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of hospitals being sold public hospitals sold to private operators. The
reason they have been sold Is because the usage of fth hospital has
changed and the public need has shifted. This may be the case with
the school, I don't know.
J: We've got to move on now go ahead.
C: Good morning, Mr Keating. My name's Angela.
PM: Angela, how you're doing?
C: Not too bad. According to the Cairns Post, this morning you're
opening a JobSkills projec?
PMV: That's true.
C, Why is It that you're on the job creation band wagon up here in the
north now, when previously we've been ignored. You know, Cairns
and the far north region has had one of the highest unemployment
rates in Australia.
PM: No, you've never been ignored, never been ignored. I mean, the very
things I was saying about the core tourism things which Is a very
labour intensive Industry. You do admit that a lot of the jobs that have
come In the last six or eight years have come from tourism as well as
from some of the manufacturing* and agricultural businesses In the
area. And 1 will just mention to you, just in the last year we have spent
something like, we are spending something like about $ 15-20 million
on some of the core tourism assets here, just simply on the
Commonwealth's own account. But the main point is one of the core
reasons for the Government's return to office in 1993 was to restart
growth and employment. And we've done that, and we've had now
560,000 jobs since the election, which is a phenomenal rate of
employment growth that Is around 4 per cent employment growth
since the election. And that's, of course, coming to Queensland as It Is
to most other States. In fact, Queensland's unemployment rate overall
Is lower than most States of Australia.
C: I can't agree with you there, Mr Keating. In February, in the far north,
we had 7,563 unemployed people but yet in March, we have 7,612
unemployed people that's an increase. And you're talking about
tourism ( inaudible).
PM: Can I just say to you, I don't know if those numbers are right, but let
me just make this clear to you. Let me tell you what is clear across the
country. In the last year, 12 months, we've had just on 300,000 job
growth in Australia. It's about three times the western world average.
We've had 560,000 jobs since the last election. And you might
remember at the election, I was saying our target was to get to
500,000 jobs In three years. Our opponents were saying, " oh that's
ILL: I
malarky, don't take any notice of that". Wefll, In fact, we got to 500,000
jobs In two years. We got to 500,000 jobs In two-thirds of the time.
That's spreading right around Australia and again, I think you've got to
look at the seasonal adjustment of these things. If you take the raw
data of any unemployment number like you just did, but not seasonally
adjusted for the seasonal changes, you can always make an argument
out of these statistics. But there's only one direction that
unemployment has been going In Australia In the last two years and
that's down, I'm very happy to say. And this JobSkills project today,
which Peter Dodd and I are opening, Is a $ 1.5 million project to train
135 unemployed North Queenslanders for jobs in the building Industry.
And that comes on top of technical and further education In TAFE, In
vocational education, on top of tertiary education In universities.
That's the sort of things which the Commonwealth Government has
done. I mean, the whole of the North Queensland economy has
changed forever under a Labor Government.
J: We're going to have to move on, I'm sorry, because we have got a
heck of a queue up here. I've got to bring you back to an issue that's
been bubbling on for years In North Queensland that's the future of
the Tully Millstream Hydro-Electric Scheme. We've got a situation
here where the Premier of the State, in exactly the seat you're In, has
said on two occasions he can't see anything wrong with it. We've got
a situation where the Labor Minister here, the Member for Mulgrave,
also can't see anything wrong with It. He's a strong proponent of the
scheme, yet we have this situation where State Government and
Federal Government cannot agree. Wayne Goss' excuse is it's finally
up to Mr Keating's Government In Canberra whether or not we have
the scheme. What's going to happen with it?
PM; I don't know what Wayne's said to you but Wayne and I get a lot of
things done co-operatively. I just mentioned a couple the Daintree
and last week, at the Council of Australian Governments, where he
amongst others and I agreed on the Hilmer competitive changes which
affec the electicity, water, gas systems right across the country. And
we will have an east coast electricity grid as a consequence of all that.
And that means that if there Is a surfeit of power in Victoria, or In New
South Wales, that is piped Into Queensland. In other words, Instead of
having this, if you like, uneconomic abundance of generating capacity
going to waste In some of these States, It will actually be smoothed out
across the grid running from Queensland through New South Wales,
through Victoria to South Australia. That's the core matter and I think
that's the reason why the Queensland Government has had second
thoughts about the Tully Millstream. That Is, It's got World Heritage
connotations about It. Any of these water storage and hydro-eectric
power projects, their economics in the long run Is always subject to
question and given the fact that we have now got the prospect of
having an east coast electricity grid which we have never had before, I
think Queensland, basically, has probably changed Its mind about it.
But again, can I say, it is a matter. the Commonwealth is not the
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proponent here. The proponent of any such project would be the
Queensland Government. But as I understand It, John, I think that
Issue has gone off the boll. I mean, I don't have, Wayne Goss has not
raised Tully Millstream with me, I don't think, ever.
J: Yes, It may have gone off the boil down south, but it hasn't gone off the
boil here.
PM: I know, but It depends who's It on the boil with, though? If the
requirement is to bring electricity Into North Queensland to meet the
region's power needs, if that electricity can come more efficiently and
cheaply from the coal deposits of central Queensland or New South
Wales, why is anyone jumping up and down about the Tully
Mill stream?
J: Well, they're jumping up and down partially because they feel we're
vulnerable to cyclones and the contact Is going to be lost. Well, you
talk to people In those cyclones ( inaudible)
PM: Yes, I know, cyclones are strong but I mean, there are lots of places
that have cyclones but they don't lose their power systems and if they
do, you are just as likely to lose the power cables from the Tully
Millstream as you are the power cables from somewhere else.
J: Now, the job scheme $ 1.5 million, 135 north Queenslanders to be
given job opportunities can we have the details of that? We're
running out of time. How It's going to work?
PM: Basically, what we do, we give people six weeks of training at TAFE,
followed by 20 weeks on-the-job training with local employers. So, the
Department of Employment, Education and Training has put this
scheme together with the assistance of the Queensland Master
Builders' Association, the AWU, the Federated Ironworkers, TAFE and
Queensland Construction Training. So, in other words, what we are
trying to do, because we are running into skill shortages in the building
Industry, we're trying to pick up 135 unemployed people to train them,
give them skills, give a subsidy In support from the Commonwealth to
the employers and as a way of moving longer-term unemployed
people. And could I just say to you, John, the last year of those
400,000-odd jobs that we created, a bit over 400,000 In the last year or
so, a bit over a year, 100,000 have gone to the long-term unemployed.
That Is, unemployed people, unemployed 12 months or more. So the
description of a long-term unemployed person Is someone
unemployed 12 months or more. A quarter of the jobs of the last 12
months have gone to them. Now, In the 1980s, for Instance, only say,
7 to 10 per cent of the jobs would have gone to them. So, these labour
market programs such as JobSkiIls the one that I am opening today
with Peter Is actually pulling up the long-term unemployed and giving
them a place back Into the main labour market and getting the skill
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complementation and skill formation we are going to need, you know,
particularly In the building industry as the building Industry goes on.
J: One final point because we are running out of time this Is on behalf of
the southern media people, whom 1 know you love..
PM: They're such a sweet bunch.
J: The situation in Western Australia. Obviously pressure would be seen
to be mounting on you here. It's now gone to an issue of the credibility
of Dr Lawrence as against the credibility of Keith Wilson and the
former Minister, Graham Edwards. Whore are you going to draw a line
here? Because Wilson is not backing off, Edwards Is not backing off
ultimately you have got to do something?
PM: Well, no I don't because there's no news In this. There's no new
matter here than there was a year ago, or two years ago. And since
then, we've had a State election in Western Australia and we've had a
Federal by-election. All this stuff came up, drifted up to the top again,
all this material drifted to the top again, during the by-election In which
Carmen Lawrence was elected to the House of Representatives. Now,
the reason it's up this week, John, Is because the Liberal Party has
now irrevocably divided In Western Australian. John Howard has just
had two of his House of Representatives Members knocked off over
there that's Paul Filing and Mr Rocher. They've just lost their seats In
pre-selection battles and they neairly lost a third. So, they are
completely and utterly divided. The Western Australian Liberal Party
is at war with itself, so what they've done is drag this red herring
across the trail and said, " oh here's Carmen Lawrence", and that
happened because Mr Wilson came out and repeated what he said
two years ago. But, what we find Is that a number of Ministers who
were Ministers of the Government of Western Australia at the same
period, support Carmen Lawrence's version of this and do not support
Wilson's. So, the fact of the matter is, I'm afraid John Howard and
here's John Howard talking about an inquiry. This Is the fellow who
along with Ian McLachlan about a month ago, asked questions in
Parliament which he knew to be false, he tried to suggest the Minister
for Aboriginal Affairs had circulated documents from Aboriginal women
when they themselves had circulated them. McLachlan resigned yet
Howard approved the tactic and admitted approving the tactic at their
tactics meeting but didn't resign himself. So, here's somebody calling
for, sort of, higher standards when he should have tendered his
resignation. I mean, if Howard wants any Inquiries, we can have an
Inquiry into his behaviour In the McLachlan affair. I mean, that's a
relevant matter. But the real story, I mean, what Is the story here?
There's only one story the Western Australian Liberal Party Is shot to
pieces. And they think they can smother the trail by talking about
some old, hoary old matter raised two or three years ago with Carmen
Lawrence. n r, -o i Cj vv-r iuj
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J: One final point The State Labor Party seems to be concerned about
the high profile of the Mabo Issue and the Republic Issue. They feel
that It's a liability electorally partially, I suppose, for them, bui directly,
they say for you?
PM: No, well, I don't agree with that. There's always people who lack
vision, courage, foresight to understand that what the Government's
doing at the moment Is engendering a steady recovery. And you
notice those fixed Interest rates coming off last week. Westpac
reduced its fixed interest rate by .3 of a per cent, and the National
Australia Bank. We are getting the economy slowing, we are getting a
steady growth. We've got 5 per cent economic growth at the moment
and we've got around 1 to 2 per cent inflation and 4 per cent
employment growth. They're the best conjunction of economic data
perhaps in 30 years. But, life is not just about those things. It's also
about justice for minorities, for disadvantaged people, the sick, the
unemployed, the Aboriginal community, and It's also about holding
your head up in Asia here. Here we are In Cairns, where you have got
people pouring into the place with travel, with tourism, where you've
got business in NQEA selling ships to China and all these other
places, and apparently some people believe we ought to be going
there saying, " oh, by the way, here we are an independent country,
Australia, proud of ourselves, proud of what we achieve, proud of
identity, but just by the way, we're borrowing the monarchy of another
country as our Head of State". I mean, the Chinese and the Thals and
the others say, " what? What are you doing down there? Are you
people for real, or aren't you?" So, this Is not a side matter.
Australia's Identity and our culture are as central to our economic
success as any other economic variable. And the only people that
don't understand are people that have never run a national
government.
J: Prime Minister of Australia, Paul Keating, thank you for your time.
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