PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER, THE HON P. J. KEATING, MP
INTERVIEW WITH ANDY COPERMAN, RADIO 4RK, ROCKHAMPTON,
FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 1995
E OE PROOF COPY
AC: Mr Keating, good afternoon.
PM: How are you Andy?
AC: Very well. I guess because Waltzing Matilda is on everyone's lips, you
have just come from the Waltzing Matilda Centenary celebrations at
Winton yesterday, what was the feeling like there?
PM: There was, no doubt, all the feeling you would want to expect with a
centenary celebration and I said last night, this really is our national
song, it is not our national anthem but it is our national song. And
whenever you hear it sung particularly in a crowd, I was in Ireland
about 18 months ago at a place called Croke Park which is where they
hold the all Ireland football grand final, Gaelic football final, and there
was probably about 120,000 people there and they had six bands, at
any rate I was a sort of guest of the Irish Prime Minister and after I had
spoken and he had spoken the band struck up Waltzing Matilda and
the whole of the stadium sang it through all the verses, the five I think,
verses.
AC: I can't remember how many myself.
PM: Yeah, but they know all the verses and if you are an Australian, you
are sitting there and there are 100,000 people up singing a tune it
makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck I can tell you.
AC: Well I must ask this question, were you given a bit of a surprise when
Ted Egan shoved the microphone in your direction yesterday
afternoon or not. Because the grab that was played on the news this
morning perhaps wasn't all that flattering. Was that a bit....
PM: I didn't know what the grab was, what did it say?
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AC: There has been suggestions going around that you don't know the
words to Waltzing Matilda.
PM: Oh, he said let's sing the first verse. But it was a matter of, he had
such a big booming voice and he had the microphone and we let him
sing it, that was all.
AC: Yes, I think that is the case with Ted Egan. Well a celebration like this
with a song like Waltzing Matilda raises the issue of whether we got it
wrong at the referendum about the National Anthem, do you think that
perhaps we should put that vote to the people once again or not?
PMV: Oh no, you can't be solemn about someone putting a Jumbuk in a bag
can you, I mean, you know a jolly Jumbuk, jolly swagman he wasn't too
jolly when he jumped in the river so I mean, in a funny kind of way the
song has picked up a lot of national sentiment but it is not a solemn
song, it is not the Anthem and the Anthem is fine as far as I'm
concerned.
AC: Although you could look at it as if it is an unemployed person who
steals some food and then commits suicide to avoid being captured by
the police, I mean that is one way of looking at it isn't it?
PM: Or, it could be a defiant person, a sort of liberating message and sort
of egalitarian message. The thing is, I don't think the song needs to be
dissected and say what does this really mean, what did Paterson mean
when he wrote this line, but rather it is the emotional impact of the
thing. It is a song that I'm sure most Australians have felt emotional
about at some point or another.
AC: I'm sure we agree with you there. Before we go to some calls a topic
which has been raised here today and, perhaps, you might be
interested in giving us some comments and an issue perhaps that is
more dear to the hearts of us is the super league football competition.
What is your feeling on that?
PM: Well it is a matter for the league, that is my feeling about it. What is
driving this is one television medium competing with another. I mean,
it is a medium change issue. That is, free to air television has been
the medium in Australian television and the medium that is coming via
fibre optic cables and satellite is pay television. And the other thing
about pay television, of course, is it is traded internationally, products
traded internationally. So obviously News Limited which runs an
international pay television business is wanting product for its system
and for Australia and the free to air stations, in this case Channel 9, is
seeking to protect the franchise it has over the existing rugby league.
Now entering into that also the dynamic of the fact that you have got
the Broncos and the Raiders and these other out of Sydney clubs has
changed the nature of the competition, seen more stars develop and, I
mean, what's happened now is the catalyst of the television change is
producing change which picks up the shift to the big regional and city
state clubs.
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AC: Michael Lee has given a commitment that the existing major sports will
always be shown on free to air television. If the Super League does
take over from the ARL as the major rugby league competition in
Australia, and that is only to be shown on pay-television, won't that
throw that commitment to..
PM: I don't think so, because I think Mr Cowley said on behalf of News
Limited they had no intention of flouting the syphoning rules and this is
basically not a matter for the Government this is a matter for the
league. As far as we are concerned, we've said that we have this thing
called anti-syphoning which means, taking the code out of it, really
means that somebody can see the rugby league, in this case the
Winfield Cup, on free-to-air television and it isn't taken and syphoned
onto pay-television. So we have what's called anti-syphoning rules.
Now they will cover all of the major things but they won't cover every
contingency of course. And the other thing about the existing
television of football is that, you know, on a Sunday night you might
see 40 minutes of the game of the day. You don't see all the other
matches. But, of course, with pay-television you will be able to see
nearly all the matches.
AC: I'll just repeat that, if the Super League does take over, enforces the
end of the ARL, will that mean that people will have to pay to watch
any rugby league coverage?
PM: Well News Limited, which is now the one promoting the Super League,
say that they won't be doing anything which is contrary to the
syphoning rules so I don't think it will arise.
AC: All right, well on that note we might go to our first caller which I guess
will be back to Waltzing Matilda, this is Richard.
C: Good afternoon and good afternoon Mr Keating.
PM: How are you Richard?
C: Mr Keating, I've just released this week my fourth history of Waltzing
Matilda Waltzing Matilda Ballad of the Fair Go And in that book I
quote what Banjo Paterson wrote about the song and I'd like to read to
you and ask your opinion on Banjo Paterson's account. He refers to
the origins and history tells us quite definitely that he wrote the song in
January 1895 and that was just 14 weeks after the burning of
Dagworth woolshed and the death of Samuel Hothmeister. Now I will
read what Banjo Paterson says, it comes from a story called Golden
Water from a radio broadcast in the 1 930s.
AC: Could I interrupt you here and ask you to be quite brief please Richard
we do have a lot of people coming afterwards?
C: Okay, well this is what Banjo says. He says that the striking shearers
burnt down MacPherson's woolshed and a man was picked up dead,
this engendered no malice and I've seen MacPhersons handing out
champagne through a pub window to these very shearers and here a
personal reminiscence may be worth recording while resting for lunch
or while changing horses on our for and hand journey Ms MacPherson
used to play a little Scottish tune on the zither, I put words to it and
called it Waltzing Matilda. I'd just like Mr Keating's comment on that,
what Banjo said.
PM: Well I think he has obviously got a catchy tune regardless of its
Scottish antecedence and he's obviously had some impression or
some impact on him on this person who supposedly put the Jumbuk in
the bag and been chased by the police and written this thing. It is not
clear what he meant to say other than the words, that is what the
meaning behind the words was, but as I said a bit earlier in the
program I don't think the song is to be dissected or psychologically
analysed. I mean the thing is in its melody and in its words and it is
very much, I mean you see the British sing land of hope and glory and
the Americans sing God bless America, I mean, this is the Australian
equivalent. And I think it is the emotionalism of the song it is now the
main message, and I said last night, the ghost of the swagman's ghost
I think the ghost is the song, it's still around. That is, the song is still
around so the ghost is still around.
C: Do you think it's the ballad of the fair go, Mr Keating.
PM: I think it has got these egalitarian tones through it. And I think I agree
with you about that. Yes I do.
AC: To move on to the next caller if you don't mind. This is Len.
C: Good afternoon.
PM: Len, how are you.
C: Not too bad, yourself?
PM: I'm good thanks.
C: I've just got a quick question in respect to reconciliation and I'm just
wondering why it is not possible for the Aboriginal community to induct
or initiate all Australians into their tribes and cause a one united new
nation to be formed in Australia. I mean it is our practice in Australia to
do this we call it naturalisation, but the Aboriginal community tell me
that that is impossible to do, I was just wondering if Mr Keating could
tell me why?
PM: I don't know why. I mean, it is like a pole trying to induct you and say
that you are Polish or a Scotsman trying to induct me and say that I'm
a Scot, I mean I'm not. I suppose that is the reason. Beyond that I
don't think the argument follows that therefore we can't be one nation.
I think that the multicultural ism of this country, I mean we have
accepted here people from all over the world living here in great
harmony and to accept them but not accept the first Australians would
be a real damnation of the whole spirit of cooperation, of assimilation
that we are now so proud of and I think the whole notion of racism
towards Aboriginal people has declined recently I think that things like
Mabo have made Australians feel better about the fact that we have
come to terms with these terrible wrongs and that they are being put
right, if late, and that sense has given the reconciliation council and
the whole process of reconciliation some real wind behind it.
C: What I'm saying is that we as Australians like you say, we accept
people from all over the world into here and we have accepted the first
nation people as far as we're concerned. But it seems to be that they
have initiated white Australians into tribes before it is a practice. But to
put it up and say well look we've taken this step, why not a step from
your direction which is a practice of your culture and initiate us all into
the Aboriginal community, all under the one flag?
PM: I don't think you should try and assume or paint the argument that
they, the victims, in some way are now doing the wrong. They are the
people who have been wronged. They, very clearly have been the
victims. And if there is magnanimity it is to flow from us to them and
not the other way around. Not that they haven't participated in this
country in its sports, in its civic life, in its defence, all the things that we
have required of ourselves, we have required of them and they have
done. I don't think one can take the view and say because some
Aboriginal tribe isn't initiating the whole Australian nation there is
something wrong with them. The fact that they may have given entry
and initiation to some non-Aboriginal people is a tribute to those
people I guess.
AC: I'm afraid we have to move on from you Len, thanks very much for your
call this afternoon to the Sunshine coast now and Judy joins us.
Good afternoon Judy.
C: Good afternoon.
PM: Judy how are you doing?
C: I'm well thanks. How are you doing?
PM: Good.
C: First of all just on the subject Waltzing Matilda I think you really hit it
on the head there when you said people are trying to dissect it far too
much. It really is a song, its a great song and I think people should just
accept it for that.
PM: That's right. For its emotional value.
C: What my question was actually about Mr Keating, was with work that
I'm involved in I come across the question a lot from my clients about
the current negative gearing laws and I'm being continually asked if the
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Government is going to change that and I would just like to know if the
Labor Government has any plans to change it?
PM: We did change it in the 1980s, but we changed it back and the reason
we did was because that is negative gearing is where people write
off against other income the costs of holding some asset like property,
a rental property, and they deduct the costs against their other income.
When we turned our back against it in the mid 1980s it was because
the people who were doing it never intended to pay any tax. That is,
when the rent and say the interest became the same, they would then
sell the property so at no stage did the Tax Commissioner or the
Commonwealth ever get we recognised the cost, but the
Commonwealth never got a benefit. But when the capital gains tax
was introduced it meant then that once they sold the property
C: That's when they pay their tax.
PM: they paid their tax then. So, there was some symmetry in the
negative gearing on the one side and capital gains on the other. And
that is why it has stayed the way it has ever since.
C: And there is certainly no plans to change that?
PM: Well, there has been none on our part.
C: All right, thanks for your time.
AC: To Jeff in Harvey Bay.
C: Hello.
PM: How are you Jeff?
C: Not too bad. I'm visiting Australia from England. I am an Australian,
but I've lived abroad for 20 odd years and I want to say how pleased I
was to see how Australia has developed. But I want to get onto this
question of nationalism and pride in one's country and how I feel that it
can go overboard and become quite dangerous particularly in Europe,
in Bosnia for example and in the Soviet Republic..
PM: And Germany in the Second World War..
C: Of course.
PM: The most obvious example of it, Japan in the Pacific in the 1940s. I
mean I think we agree, I think nationalism, that is misplaced sense of
national sentiment, self importance, superiority breeds contempt for
other countries.
C: It does, it breeds intolerance.
PM: It breeds intolerance whereas I think, you know, one's got to have that
and that is one of the great things about Australia. We have never had
that sense of self importance about ourselves that was in some way
menacing someone else. But one thing we have had, that is a sense
of tolerance and a sense of identity and I think it is important that the
country understands itself, understands what it has become and is
proud of what it has become. I think that is a different thing altogether.
C: Well, it is. I am very pleased to see more and more multi-racialism in
Australia and very pleased to see Afro-Carribeans and all sorts of
different races on the streets, in the cities and in the country too, I think
it is a great thing.
PM: It is, our most successful post-war change perhaps has been this
change to a multi-cultural, multi-racial country and the fact that we
have made the change so smoothly and so well attests, I think, to the
great tolerance in this country which comes from our sense of
democracy. The reasons, I think, Australians give other Australians
intellectual room and space and respect comes from that sense of
democracy which is very deep rooted here.
C: I want to say too how much Australians are admired abroad,
particularly in England and in Europe, generally they have a very good
name and it makes me very proud.
AC: Just on the subject of multi-culturalism, do you think that perhaps the
celebration of Waltzing Matilda, getting back to that, is celebrating an
Australia which is no longer there, in that now we have this incredible
multi-culturalism which we didn't have 100 years ago?
PM: A lot of what was there then isn't here now, but Australia has gone on
to become a different country than that which it was, I guess all
countries do this in 100 years, but we certainly have. But, the song
has gone on to become part of the modern us, the modern Australia.
So, it is just as capable of being celebrated, I mean look, countries
rarely pick up, I mean most countries have national songs, they don't
have too many of them.
AC: You don't think that the people who are going out to Winton are going
1wow isn't it wonderful, we have got Waltzing Matilda', are crying for
the days before multi-culturalism. Is that reading too much into it?
PM: I don't think so. There would be a few conservatives around who decry
the change in the place and wish we could, sort of, wind the clock
back, but winding the clock back has not got much going for it.
C: Hello, Mr Prime Minister.
PM: Theresa, how are you doing?
C: Very well. I just wanted to let you know that I think you are not doing a
bad job.
PM: That is kind of you, thank you.
C: Yes, and I hope you continue to do so.
PM: Well, we had some interesting data out last week. We had what is
called the National Accounts that is the dip stick we put into the
economy every three months and that showed that the Australian
economy is growing at five per cent and with about one per cent
inflation.
C: Yes.
PM: And you have got to go back, well probably I can't remember any year
much in the post-war years where we had the concurrence of five per
cent growth, one per cent inflation, four per cent employment growth.
So something good is happening out there.
C: Of course it is, and I wish you and your family all the best.
PM: That is very kind of you, thank you.
AC: Betty in Longreach.
C: Good afternoon, Mr Keating.
PM: How are you Betty?
C: Very good thank you and yourself?
PM: I'm great.
C: That's good and you are doing a good job and the other one said the
same thing. What interests me the most is tourism. Tourism is a great
industry for the people of the interior, no matter what state we live in,
and they expect an increase from 15 million to 42 million in the year
2003 I heard on the news this morning which is another great thing.
But the thing which we think of a lot is trying to get tourists from every
area in Australia out here and we would like to know if there is
anything being done on the Kennedy development road between
Winton and so we can get some of our tourists from up around
Cairns. We hear a lot about strategy, eco-tourism, infrastructure and
what have you and we all know the cost of these all weather roads are
enormous, but there is other alternatives and some of the Shires have
come up with, especially the Shire, they have got an innovative and
economical efficient alternative where they use geotextiles
reinforcement seal and the cost then would only be $ 12 million
compared with $ 148 million for bitumen. And I was just wondering if
we could have this road, so we would have an all weather road right up
to Cairns and there is a lot of people on the coastal regions who would
love to come out here and we haven't got a road that would bring them
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through into Longreach to our heritage centre in Barcaldine. I was just
wondering if there is anything you could possibly do about this?
PM: When the One Nation package was introduced in 1992 we were
building and sealing a highway running up from South Australia, up
through western NSW and into Queensland. Now, a lot of that is
sealed, a bit of it is yet to be sealed, my geography lets me down here
a bit, I'm not just certain where this connects up to the arterial roads
and highways out through Longreach and Winton. But, I do
understand the points you are making and can say that, I think, still a
lot of the ethos of Australia is a celebration of the bush and the bush
values.
C: This is right.
PM: And I think the places you mention, Longreach and Barcaldine
C: You see, they are talking about stopping the train because it is not
economic run between Winton and Herindom, and if we had an all
weather road there they could use that for the train and then also we
can get our tourists down, we have got an all weather road then from
right up in Cairns to right down through this region here and another
thing there has been four generations of my family lived here in and
still no all weather road.
PM: No, no, well you have been waiting a while haven't you.
C: Yes.
PM: You really have. Well look, we have made great strides with the
national highway system which the Commonwealth runs.
C: Yes, I know, the Matilda Highway is one of the best.
PM: We run the national highways, the States run the arterial highways and
arterial roads and we made this division some years ago. That is, the
national highway system the Commonwealth funds and runs. The
arterial roads the States do. But we have taken over some of the
bigger state roads and turned them into highways and that was the one
I mentioned in One Nation. Any rate I'll look my geography up as a
result of your call and see whether you are actually in this system. It
may be you are there and are just waiting for the favour to turn up.
C: Just waiting for that. Thank you Mr Keating.
AC: Mr Keating, you had a meeting this afternoon with some Central
Queensland University students, I understand there was a bit of anger.
PM: No, there wasn't.
AC: It was foreshadowed that there might be a little bit of anger regarding
HECS.
PM: No, they were really very sweet, very polite.
AC: Can you reassure them that HECS will not be increased in the Budget?
PM: No, I think you have got to understand what the issues are. They are
that there is a fear on the part of students that the Government will go
for up-front fees for under graduates. This has always been a furphy.
I don't know how it has got around and I made very clear today and I'm
happy to make clear here that this Government does not believe in full,
up-front fees for university students. By contrast, my opponents in the
last election, the Liberal party in the last election, wanted full fees for
university students which meant that only the children of the wealthy
could go to university. Now, I made the point to them, one of the ways
we've taken university places from 320,000 in 1988 to 560,000 today
and that is a 36 per cent increase in funding in places and the reason
that has happened is because we now ask students to pay about
per cent of the cost of a university place in the higher education charge
HECS but they pay it back when they get into work. But, all of that
money is not kept by the Commonwealth government. It all goes back
into places. So, if you take the university where I was today, Central
Queensland here, about a third of those people on campus wouldn't be
there without HECS. So, one of the points I'm making, you know, I've
had people objecting to HECS, well HECS is the way where the young
people, the children of working class people get into university. Before
that it was basically preserved for people on high incomes. That is
why HECS is such a fair arrangement.
The altercation I had a couple of weeks ago was with not an
unemployed person, but with a student who didn't want to pay HECS.
And I made the point, well, if you don't want to pay HECS give your
place in university to somebody who does.
AC: Fair enough. Later on today you are heading to the Capricorn coast,
what will you be doing there?
PM: Today, can I just say a couple of things, one of the things that I was
very pleased to do today with Majorie Henzell who is with me in the
studio is that we were with the Vice-Chancellor of the University
opening the computer communications centre which the
Commonwealth has just funded $ 5.5 million of a $ 7 million centre at
the University which will virtually connect the University through the
information highway and provide Central Queensland this capacity on
that campus for information technology and computer technologies.
That is one of the principal things I was doing today. Later on I am
seeing a group of people down on the coast just to have a talk to them
and to have dinner tonight with some of the business community and to
just talk about issues. For instance, generally that is, business tourism
and in the discussions this afternoon when I leave here I am seeing a
group on the coast to talk about Shoalwater Bay which I was very
pleased to be able to be involved with in preserving that wonderful
area for this community here and for posterity. So, I am looking
forward to a good discussion down there.
AC: We have got one minute left, we'll go to one final call.
C: Good afternoon, Prime Minister. I would just like to say I think you are
doing a pretty good job over all. However, the Government doesn't
seem to be doing very much to promote ' buy Australian made', you
know to promote supporting Australian companies, Australian owned
companies and to buy Australian made because if we did I thought we
would improve our balance of payments problem pretty quick.
PM: Well, we do encourage it, but you see, where we encourage it most is
with exports. We get other people outside of Australia to buy Australia
and that is where it matters most and it may just be worth your while to
know this, that ten years ago we exported 14 per cent of all we
produce. Today it is 22 per cent. That is an eight percentage point
difference, but eight per cent of our economy is worth $ 30 billion a
year. So, we have got somebody buying $ 30 billion of Australia out
there around the world and that is the best buy Australia program I can
think of.
AC: Mr Keating, thanks very much for coming in this afternoon.
PM: Thank you.
ends