PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER, THE HON P. J. KEATING MP
INTERVIEW WITH FRAN KELLY, ABC ' PM' PROGRAM, TUESDAY,
11 OCTOBER 1994
E& OE PROOF COPY
FK: Prime Minister, in his book, Bob Hawke accounts how at the time in
1991, you were not interested in sending Australian troops to the Gulf
War, yet now you say at the time that you were saying that they should
go after Saddam Hussein and finish him off. Did you support
involvement in the Gulf War or not?
PM: I did. That is just a straight lie. A straight distortion. There were only
two Ministers at the original meeting this was about whether we
committed people to Desert Shield that was Hawke, Michael Duffy
who was acting Foreign Minister and me. Without any notice I was
asked around and he said " I might get a call from the United States,
what do you think we'll do?" Typically Bob Hawke, he didn't say ' look,
I think this is what we should do, now what do you think?' The
question always is ' what do you think we should do?' You know, will
the real leader please tell us what we can do here. And, I said.'. well, I
think, that we are going to continue to see this sort of criminal activity
from this regime and I think we should be in a position to respond
positively to a commitment on the interdiction role in the Gulf. That
was the first meeting of course Gareth was away and Michael Duffy
was there as his acting Minister. The second was whether we
committed troops to Desert Shield and it was a meeting between
Hawke, Button, Robert Ray and the Foreign Minister Gareth Evans
and me. Robert had just been to Washington, Gareth had been in
touch with the United States and had also been in touch with other UN
members and we had a discussion and Bob Hawke was encouraging a
discussion which was some advice from Robert and Gareth that maybe
it would be better if we take the four ships up to the top of the Gulf and
commit a squadron of FAI 8s. They said their piece, Hawke sat back
again not indicating a position. John Button was then asked what he
thought. He gave a very negative response, generally negative
response and they said ' well, what do you think?' I said ' well, look, I'm
just listening, you people'are the experts.' And Hawke said to me
1come on, come on.' And I said ' what, you mean I should say again
what we should do here? Well, I'll tell you what we should do. I don't
agree we should put a squadron of FAI8s there, but I do believe we
should commit to Desert Storm, but I'd leave two ships up the top of
the Gulf and bring the other two home.
Now, that's what happened. To that, he has reworked all that to say
because I didn't want to put a squadron of FAI8s in and leave four
ships up there. Because the American's wanted a commitment both
moral and material, that two ships were enough, we didn't need to
expose needlessly Australian planes or Australian ships. But, at no
stage was there any recommendation from Hawke. He sat there while
Gareth and Robert spoke and the decision was made when I said
' look, I believe we should put two ships up the top of the Gulf and let
the other two come back.'
Now, Bob Hawke parades himself around as somebody who sort of
backed the Americans in, well, he wanted to put them there. I don't
deny that. But, like a lot of things Hawke wanted to do, he never had
the courage to say so when it mattered and he didn't on that occasion
and he hasn't since.
FK: Well, the comments you made yesterday, have caused some stir.
When you say that Saddam Hussein should have been finished off the
first time around and we wouldn't be where we are again today, what
do you mean? Do you mean that he should have been assasinated?
PM: No, no, politically, just his regime should have been, essentially,
rendered inoperative, defunct, I mean call it what you like, I mean
defeated. No, I don't mean personally, I mean politically.
EK: The other attack the Opposition has been making on you, Prime
Minister, is about this purchase of the new house.
PM: Hang on, before we get onto that rubbish let's just stay on the main
thing. I mean, look, the lot of the Iraqi Kurds and Shi'ites in this
country has been a very sad and dismal one in all the periods since
and there was a position and there was a strategic capacity to finish
this regime off and that wasn't taken up. Now, I said in the Cabinet
room at the time I think we should do that. So did Kim Beazley and
Gareth Evans said ' well, that's not part of the UN mandate.' It wasn't,
but there was still a strong body of opinion that thought that around the
world and essentially what I did the other day was repeat that.
FK: Back to the House and the play the Opposition has been making of
that. They say it is ironic for a Labor Prime Minister to be buying a $ 2
million house in inner Sydney. In the game of politics, that is a fair
enough point to score isn't it?
PM: Look, Alexander Downer, he's not going to make it. I mean the poor
silly thing, he is wondering around tied up now with Michael Baume,
you know who is a piece of, essentially, parliamentary filth. I mean,
look, the thing is and that is what he traffics in filth, under privilege.
Let Alexander Downer cut his own cloth. I mean, look, I've got a house
in Sydney I've had for twelve years, I am moving one mile away to a
larger house, that is the full story.
FK: But, for them to make a play of it, isn't it similar to what you have done
in the past with John Hewson buying and selling houses and the
Ferrari?
PM: No, I have never referred to, I have never said to John Hewson ever
where did you get money for this? or where did you get money for
that? We've said look, he lived in Bellevue Hill and had a Ferrari, but
nobody said " well listen John, hang on you paid this for that and what
was it that you put down here and what margin did you have there and
where did you I mean, that's never been done. I mean, at the time
John Hewson was embarrassed with his family affairs not a word came
from me or the Government. At a time when Mrs Downer absolutely
put her foot in it about the passports of her children, not a word other
than an oblique reference from Gareth Evans which he apologised for.
These people never stop and the thing about it is this Fran they must
think I live under a rock. I know all about them, about their personal
lives, about their finances, but I never use it.
FK: Is this sale going through in eighteen months time, is that a sign that
you considering resigning from politics?
PM: No, just as that suited the vendor and it suited me. I've got no
particular purpose at this point living in the house and I won't have
after then. So, what I'll basically do is sell the one I have and rent it
and that suited I mean, the cheek of these characters is just
unbelievable. But the gutlessness of Downer not to raise it in the
House of Representatives when I was there, but to go and get
somebody like... without any credibility, a person whose reputation is in
tatters Senator Baume, Michael Baume to go and do it in the Senate
with a couple of other Senators on the instructions of Alexander
Downer, is the sort look, we have all got to make our political bed
in life and then lie in it. Well, the public is making a judgement about
him.
FK: In the House tomorrow the Government's Privacy Bill comes up the
Opposition will vote with the Government, but they're planning to move
an amendment calling for consultation with the Federal parliament,
State governments and the community about the implications of
international treaties before they're signed on to do they have a
point? Should there be more discussion about these kind of treaties
before...
PM: No.
FK Australia signs on?
PM: No. Well, when I say do they have a point about international treaties
no. Do they have a point about discussions? We already consult
with the States, industry groups and community groups, and we do it
extensively. What is their point of objection? They're snakey on the
external affairs power of the Constitution. They're saying " how dare
these Commonwealth governments usurp the roles of the States?"
See, this gets back to the old debate was the Federation an act of
creation of the Nation, or was it basically a set of arrangements for
States? Well, it was the former, not the latter. But the Liberal Party
years after its birth, going nowhere, still messing around with States
rights, and still trafficking in that nonsense is trying to say this is an
incursion of States rights if the Commonwealth of Australia enters into
an international treaty. Are they going to say that when the
Commonwealth ratifies the GATT Agreement, the Uruguay Round, that
it is going to effect some industry and some state, and that's some
transgression of State rights? I mean, when does this nonsense
finish? This is an island continent nation when does this rubbish
about States rights finish?
EK Well, there is some confusion still I gather in the Coalition about
whether some MP's will call for a vote on the Bill if they don't, is the
Government tempted to call for a vote to try and force those ones who
don't support the legislation cross the floor?
PM: Which legislation are you speaking about now?
FK This is the Privacy Bill.
PM: Oh, the Privacy Bill I thought you were talking about the treaties. On
the Privacy legislation look, Alexander Downer said remember he
had his great coming-out press conference a week or two ago: " I have
got the coalition to agree not to oppose the Bill"? I mean, you could
hardly bring yourself to announce it, could you? " We have agreed not
to oppose" not to support, but not to oppose the Bill. He sacked John
Hewson for arguing that the Coalition should support the Bill, he fired
him because Hewson had the temerity to come out and say he
supported the Bill. Now the National Party are going to stand him up
they are directing their members to vote against the Bill what is he
going to do? Sack them Or look like the turkey he has become? I
mean, how does he look on this he has come out and said " I have got
the Coalition to agree not to oppose the Bill". Wrong. He got to the
Coalition to agree to nothing because the National Party are now
saying that " we'll do what we like". I mean his leadership...
FK: National Party MP's are still holding their cards pretty close to their
chest on whether they will actually force a vote and cross the floor
would you like to see that demonstrated? Would you help them call on
a vote?
PM: His leadership has no credibility and no strength, and that's is
apparent in the National Party thumbing its nose at him. If it was up to
him to fire John Hewson if any front-bencher from the National Party
vote against the legislation, then he should fire them too.
FK: There's no sign though that front-benchers will be the ones voting
against him, only those on the back-bench...
PM: It doesn't matter his authority is shot to pieces whichever way it goes.
He made an announcement on behalf of the coalition that the coalition
wouldn't oppose the legislation. They are going to oppose it some of
them.
FK: The Land Fund also goes into the Senate this week the Aboriginal
Land Fund. The Greens are saying they won't support it unless it's
amended substantially they have called your legislation a hoax and a
hall of mirrors paternalistic. Is there going to be another agonisingly
drawn out debate like we had with the Native Title debate, over the
Land Fund?
PM: Well, there shouldn't be because this is a most highly consulted... . this
has been a consulted over piece of legislation, and there is no notion
here that the Aboriginal community certainly not the big
representative bodies I have met believe this is some paternalism on
the part of the Commonwealth. I mean it wasn't that long ago that
Senator Chamarette made a submission in the budget context
proposing certain details about the fund it wasn't so apparently
paternalistic then. The commitment to self-determination is evident
right throughout the Bill, it's set up under the ATSIC Act, Senator
Chamarette says she wants a billion dollars committed in 3 years. We
are committing well over a billion, but over a longer time frame
because we think that is just simply more wise that you can't spend
that money I mean, how could you spend $ 300 million a year on
land?
EK: Well, are you going to try and talk to the Greens about this will you
try and persuade them?
PM: And then the other thing is that she is taking her lead from the NSW
Land Council. Well, it has a land fund which Premier Neville Wran
established which is very well endowed, and maybe they're just not as
interested in the federal fund as some other people in Aboriginal
Australia are, and she shouldn't take that much notice of them.
FK: Will you be talking to the Greens about that?
PM: Well, I don't mind talking to them I have sent them a letter, they have
written to me, I have communicated back to them trying to cover the
points off, and I am happy to talk to them. But I right from the
start I said when we introduced the Native Title legislation that there
would be a Land Fund to cover the interest of indigenous Australians
who couldn't avail themselves of the Mabo Native Title Legislation
who couldn't establish that connection with the land. That has been
part and parcel of everything that the Government has said it is even
in the fist Bill, that is the Land Fund is in the first Bill. Now, it is being
amplified in this Bill, and it was on that basis that the Aboriginal
community expected us to proceed with it, which we have after
extensive consultations. So it's a very... it's very high-handed for the
Greens to say " oh, no, well look we know better what Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander Australians need best here. We know better,
and we are going to exercise our perogatives in terms of our own
view". I mean, I just think that the Greens should do a bit of consulting
too, but a bit of broad consulting and not just with particular groups
with an axe to grind.
FK: So you're not... it sounds as though you're not too interested in their
amendments?
PM: No, I'm not real interested to be honest, no.
FK: Prime Minister just finally, the polls are looking very good for the
Government there's much talk about the Government setting up
trigger legislation are you tempted to pull on an early election?
PM: Now did you write this question out Fran, or did you work yourself up to
it?
FK: I have been working up to it Prime Minister.
PM: No. Nope. N-O-P-E. Nope.
FK: So we won't be going to the polls early?
PM: Nope.
FK: Prime Minister Keating, thank you.
ends.