# 4
PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER, THE HON P J KEATING, MP
INTERVIEW WITH FRAN KELLY, ABC AM PROGRAM
26 NOVEMBER 1993
E& OE PROOF COPY
FK: Prime Minister, this latest account from Conrad Black makes you look
bad, doesn't it?
PM: No, it doesn't at all. The 35 per cent that he mentioned was mentioned in
the meeting, but mentioned by him. And as you made quite obviously
clear in the conversation with Dr Hewson, the Government then
considered this, that conversation took place in 1992. In April 1993 the
Treasurer put a statement out saying the Government had considered Mr
Blacks requests, the Government agreed to the Telegraph increasing its
share holding in Fairfax among the 15 per cent to 25 per cent, and he
finished it with a sentence saying the Government will not countenance
further increases in the permitted level of foreign involvement in mass
circulation newspapers.
FK: You confirmed last week in Seattle that it was 25 per cent ownership you
had been discussing as relying on balanced coverage. Mr Black now
says that condition was applied to consideration of 35 per cent.
PM: Mr Black wants to buy up-to-4OO.. per-cen4-, up-to--00 -per-cent of John
Fairfax and Sons.
FK: He said that you said you might be disposed to consider such an
application if there was evidence that the company was encouraging
professiona4 -standards.
PM: That is not right, and as a consequence what proves it not to be right was
four months later when the Government considered this it said 25 per cent
and no more. But let's make this very clear, Mr Black does want to own
majority control of John Fairfax and Sons, and that's what he told me the
Leader of the Opposition had promised him. He said on the Sunday
program, Business Sunday, a week or two ago, he said, " I wrote in my
book about Dr Hewson's position which was that this was not an issue
with him, and he in an agreed phraseology" that's where he and Hewson
had agreed to what to say " was very relaxed about our level of
ownership would be, in the event that he won the election". In other
words, Hewson said to him, " you can have control, I am very relaxed
about the level, I won't nominate any particular level, you buy what you
want."
FK: That's not the same as saying Dr Hewson said he would 100 per cent.
Mr Black said himself that no ceiling was ever mentioned by Dr Hewson.
PM: The ceiling is not the point, it is control. " I wrote in my book that this was
not an issue with him, " in other words it was not an issue that John Fairfax
and Sons newspapers, The Age, Sydney Morning Herald, The Financial
Review, should pass to the control of a foreign person. Now, the
Government wouldn't let it pass to the control of a foreign person, John
Hewson was going to let it pass the control of a foreign person by going
beyond 50 per cent which gave Mr Black a majority of the stock. And
then, with all the hypocrisy in the world, John Hewson is on your program
this morning and running around radios and television a week ago talking
about me when the Government has had a Cabinet discussion, decided
on 25 per cent, put out a statement saying no more then 25 per cent, he
has offered 50 per cent up to 100 per cent, unlimited, and now he is
backsliding on a Senate Committee because he knows if he goes he will
need to purjure himself when questioned under oath about whether he
offered control of John Fairfax and Sons to Conrad Black.
FK: Aren't you going too far though, by saying that he has offered 50 per cent,
100 per cent, unlimited, when in fact both Dr Hewson and Conrad Black
agree that no ceiling was ever mentioned in their conversations. No
percentage at all.
PM: The percentage was clear control, do you understand? He was saying it
was not an issue with him, and he says today in his letter, Mr Black, that
the Opposition had not expressed a preference for any specific ceiling on
such ownership. In other words, no limit. Do you understand the
connotation of no limit?
FK: Well John Hewson has called you an unmitigated liar. And isn't it true
that you have said that you would consider 25 per cent, Conrad Black
now, today says, you promised to support 25 per cent. That is quite a
difference, isn't it? Promise to considering, or promising to support.
PM: liar on a dozen times every day. He has got no control of himself on
radio, in the Parliament, anywhere else. One of the things he said was,
we lied about the tax cuts. They were delivered last week. People got
their tax cuts last week. He will go on radio and say anything. Look, let
me just make this clear, Mr Black mentioned 35 per cent, he mentioned
control of John Fairfax and Son which is over 50 per cent, and he told me
that he could buy up to 100 per cent on the say-so, with the agreement of
John Hewson, but he didn't need 100 per cent, something over 50 per
cent would be enough for him.
FK Conrad Black told you that?
PM: He told me that.
FK Prime Minister, can I just clear this one thing up? Did you say to Conrad
Black that you would consider 25 per cent, or as he says did you say you
would promise to support it?
PM: Meetings with Mr Black, Mr Black wants to get control of John Fairfax and
Sons, he swans into Australia about every three months and each time he
comes, every three or four months he seeks to see me and no doubt he
seeks to see the Leader of the Opposition and other people. And all the
game is about is whether he can lift his limits above 50 per cent, so that
he can control of John Fairfax and Sons. Now, I made it quite clear, I said
look, Mr Black, just understand this, that where you're from in Canada the
interests of Canada strategically are covered largely by the plurality of the
United States, and the general side for the US population and its
defences and foreign affairs and strategic interests. This is not true of
Australia. Australia doesn't have 230 million people bordering it. Its
broadsheet newspapers must keep a peculiarly Australian attitude. They
must be controlled by Australians. And that's why he always stumbles
with me, because I said to him you're a Canadian who lives in London,
you are not an Australian, and the Government is not going to pass
control of John Fairfax and Sons to you. John Hewson couldn't care less
about Australia's national interests. You have got to go back to these
months just before the last election, the arrogance with which Dr Hewson
was strutting around the Sydney business community and all of the high
spots of Sydney and Melbourne saying he had the election in the bag.
Black came in to see him: look don't worry, we don't have any hangups
about levels of ownership, we don't have this economic nationalism
nonsense which the Labor Party goes on about, we are very relaxed
about. what level you want,.. there. is . no. particular. ceiling from us, tell us
what you want, you can have it.
FK With all due respect, Prime Minister, isn't the issue now for you and
people of Australia and your Caucus whether you promised Conrad Black
to support him in his bid for. 25 per cent promised that support and then
indicated that you would then later consider 35 per cent.
PM:. Let me just put the hypothetical. If you were right, I broke the promise,
didn't I? Because when the statement came out in April, on April the
it was 25 per cent, after a full Cabinet discussion. The fact is I never told
Conrad Black that I would consider his 35 per cent, he wanted 35 per
cent, he wanted 50 per cent, he wants 50 per cent plus, he wants
wantever number gives him complete certainty, and he particularly wanted
them because he thought John Fairfax and Sons were cheap. Now, the
fact is the Government has considered this, the real issue is this, will Dr
Hewson now appear before the inquiry which he has fostered by the
Liberals in the Senate, because the Democrats want to write a line into
the terms of reference that the questions about my discussions with Mr
Black should also be questioned about the Leader of the Opposition
discussions with Mr Black. Now, when you put that question to him, he
says he wasn't debating these things, it was done by somebody else.
What you will find is, if Dr Hewson mentions, in the terms of reference by
the Democrats, which he should be, he won't appear. And he won't
appear because he knows that under oath Mr Black is going to testify that
Dr Hewson was prepared to pass control of John Fairfax and Sons to him,
and Dr Hewson will either have to purjure himself or confirm the fact that
he was prepared to pass the control of John Fairfax and Sons over to
Conrad Blacks telegraph interests. Now, key question.
FK: PM, just briefly on another matter, will you apologise to Malaysian Prime
Minister, Dr Mahatir?
PM: Don't ask me these things. Can I just say, on the program yesterday you
also had Kerry Stokes on there. There was a question put to him, I don't
know whether it was by you it said Conrad Black said Mr Keating has not
compromised the integrity of his office. Do you agree with that
assessment? He said: I certainly do not in other words, he's suggesting I
compromised the integrity of my office. Look, the Leader of the Opposition
uses the word ' liar' about 100 times every day. I let him run his silly race.
But Mr Stokes is a different person, he's got a very big and loose mouth
and let me use your program to tell him I'll put a very big writ in it, if he
keeps speaking in these terms. The Government acted with complete
probity on this. It was considered by the full Cabinet on a submission by
the Treasurer, and a decision was announced and it was announced with
the line: the Govt will not countenance further increases in the permitted
level of foreign involvement in mass circulation newspapers. Let me make
quite clear again, I believe that the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age in
particular are the premier broadsheets in this. country and I don't believe
they should be majority foreign-owned. That's the difference between
John Hewson and me he believes they should. Basically in a
conversation where he didn't give a tinker's cuss for Australia's national
interests, he decided simply to slip them away to Black because he
thought it would shore him up in the election campaign.
ENDS