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TRANSCRIPT OF PRE-RECORDED INTERVIEW WITH THE TREASURER
BY RICHARD CARLETON, 60 MINUTES, SYDNEY 16 MARCH 1990
E E 0 PROOF ONLY
CARLETON: Prime Minister and Mr Keating thank you very
much for coming to the studios tonight. I would just
like to find out for the viewers the strictures under
which this discussion is being recorded this evening. In
21 years of interviewing Mr Keating, since he first came
into the Parliament back in 1969, he has never imposed
conditions on his television appearances with me. He has
tonight. The Treasurer has insisted that every word he
utters at this recording session is in fact broadcast.
That is to say his words are not to be edited in any way.
Mr Keating has made his appearance tonight conditional
upon us agreeing to that. The Prime Minister has imposed
no such condition. Well gentlemen, thank you very much
for coming. Mr Hawke, is it not amazing, is it not
amazing, that despite interest rates being what they are,
terrible inflation, almost daily corporate collapses,
appalling current account and foreign debt figures, that
you're likely to get re-elected next week?
PM: If they were the only facts that were relevant, yes,
the answer is it would be amazing. But of course it's
also relevant that we have record employment growth,
investment at a record level as a proportion of gross
domestic product, our manufacturing industry recording
record levels of exports, our children now staying on in
school in numbers double what they were before and
the most needy in the community being compassionately
cared for. Now when you put those things into the
equation it's not amazing.
CARLETON: And the price of that is 17 percent interest
ffes?
PM: Well, the price of that is not 17 percent interest
rates at all. Seventeen percent interest rate is there
because in fact we've had an economy that's been growing
too strongly. In the last year, eight per cent growth in
consumption, four per cent growth in production and Paul
and I had no alternative but to slow things down
somewhat. We had tight fiscal policy, tight wages policy
and we had to have, in those circumstances, tight
monetary policy. But the important thing is, for the
voters out there, and this is what they're thinking
about, is they know why we did it and they know that
-under our policies the rates are going to come down and
they know that under the policies of our opponents an
explosion of interest rates and collapse of the economy
is inevitable.
CARLETON: Yes, but it's much more rewarding to judge you
by your results on interest rates rather than the
promises of either yourself or some banks. The result on
interest rates is now, after seven years, 17 percent,
you're responsible.
PM: Well, I am responsible too, if we're going to claim
responsibility. I and the Treasurer, and our colleagues
are responsible for the fact that we've had a rate of
employment growth five times faster than our opponents
had, twice as fast as the rest of the world, a massive
reduction in unemployment and a doubling of the number of
our kids staying on in school. We're responsible for
those things too. And the, see what you've got to do,
Richard, is understand that that electorate you're
talking about there isn't single dimensional. You seem
to think they are single dimensional, that they're only
going to make the judgement about Paul Keating and Bob
Hawke and the Labor Government on the basis of interest
rates.
CARLETON: But Mr Keating if 17 percent is the best you
can do after seven years and they can do five per cent in
Japan, isn't it time to get out of the way and make room
for someone who can do better?
KEATING: Well, Richard, let me take your first point up.
I did this interview with you tonight on the basis that
it would be like a live interview. If I do Jana Wendt
live, it goes live. We're doing this I want the public
to see what's actually said and not to find either your
questions or my answer on the cutting room floor. So..
CARLETON: And do you impose the conditions..
KEATING: No, I'm giving the public a break you weren't
prepared to give them.
PM: clear about that.
t'RLETON: in 21 years you've never imposed any
condition like that one.
KEATING: But this is, this is one week before an
election campaign
CARLETON: since 1969.
KEATING: Normally we'd do this live on the Sunday
evening and what we're doing is the equivalent of doing
it live. How can you complain about that?
CARLETON: I'm not complaining, I'm simply saying..
PM: You're taking a bit of time about it.
CARLETON: Yes, I know but..
KEATING: ( inaudible)
CARLETON: I'm pointing out the unique conditions that
imposed on this interview that you haven't imposed in
21 years.
KEATING: Just because I can't remember doing one
with you Richard, one week out from the campaign and if I
was doing one with Jana Wendt or anyone, it would be
live.
CARLETON: Well, I could remind you of 1972, 1974,
PM: Oh, come on..
CARLETON: 1975, 1983..
KEATING: You're on the big issues, you're on the big
issues Richard.
CARLETON: yes, we'll go back to the point..
KEATING: You're a big issues person.
CARLETON: Yes, well, the big issue of course is 17
percent rates produced by you after seven years. And the
question was if after seven years the best you can do,
when they can do five per cent in Japan, maybe it's time
for you to get out of the way to make room for someone
who can
KEATING: We've also had twice the rate of growth per
year in the last seven years than we've had in the
previous seven. We've had twice the OECD average
employment growth. We've had a faster, stronger,
wealthier economy and when the terms of trade picked up
unexpectedly in ' 87/ 8 it produced big spending effects
which were met with a big interest rate effect, it's as
simple as that.
CARLETON: You're going to be Prime Minister for the next
three years?
PM: If they elect me on 24 of March, which I hope they
will, then the answer is an unequivocal yes.
CARLETON: For the three year term, or whatever the term
of the Parliament is?
PM: Well, and we have three year terms, I mean, the
election in 1984 was to bring the two Houses in synch and
then we've had three year term, three year term, and
we'll have another three year term.
CARLETON: So he has to wait 24 years, a 24
apprenticeship. After 21 years in the Parliament so far
KEATING: I'm doing well, I'm doing well..
CARLETON: and another three before he gets a crack
at your job?
KEATING: I'm doing well.
PM: he's doing well and he's happy. The important
thing is that he went into Parliament early, he's been a
magnificent Treasurer and by the time that I give it away
he would come to the Prime Ministership, if that's his
wish and that's the election of Caucus, which I imagine
it would be, then he would come to the Prime Ministership
at what I would believe would be a younger than the
average age of Prime Ministers in the past.
CARLETON: Is he going to spend the next three years as
Treasurer? PM: If he wishes to. I mean, my position is, and Paul
and I discuss these things, that if he wants to remain
Treasurer then, that's his position.
CARLETON: If he wants Foreign Affairs can he have it?
PM: If he asked for Foreign Affairs I'd have to think
about it. But, on discussion
KEATING: asking.
PM: And he won't be asking. He regards the
Treasurership, he regards the Treasurership as the next
most important job.
CARLETON: In October 1988, when he sent John Dawkins
down the corridor to knock on your door and tell you that
it was time to get out of the way to make room for him,
was that a silly thing for him to have done?
PM': If he'd done it, yes, it would have been and he
didn't. CARLETON: What did happen?
PM: Dawkins came and had a discussion with me of his own
volition not sent by anyone and that discussion was
reasonably amicable and, I might say from my point of
view, quite definite. Much more definite than it was on
the part of Mr Dawkins.
CARLETON: Are you happy to sit around for another three
years and play second fiddle?
KEATING: I'm happy to be led by the most successful
Prime Minister in the post-war years. It's a pleasure to
me, has been a matter of great sense of accomplishment
for all of us who've been in this Cabinet. We are a very
happy ship and, if I might just say, we're a very happy
couple. CARLETON: Yes, but wanted his job, 17 months ago.
KEATING: Oh no, oh no, I mean, look Bob and I would be
-the first to admit that these jobs produce a few strains
and pressures, they do. But, but we are seven years on,
we are into our eighth year now and, considering the
pressures we've had in this economy to pick it up from
basically a recessed heap to what it is today, it's been
an enormous amount of change, I think we've weathered it
fantastically.
CARLETON: Under what circumstances would you try to
knock him of f again?
KEATING: Well, Richard, you use all these crass terms.
I mean, it's unbecoming of you.
CARLETON: It's unbecoming of me?
KEATING: Yes.
CARLETON: Well, let me ask you if some of your language
is becoming of a Prime Minister when you referred to the
Opposition as like a dog returning to its vomit. When
you use language like that
KEATING: Rudyard Kipling.
CARLETON: Mugs, criminals, loopy crims, stupid foul
mouthed grub, piece of criminal garbage, alley cat,
gigolo, perfume gigolo, scumbag, scum, thug, gutless spiv
and champion liars.
KEATING: Well, that's becoming
PM: Treasurer or the Prime Minister?
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KEATING: That is, they are bits and pieces of words
picked up over 20 years of going through Hansard. You go
through Hansard for 20 years of anyone on the Liberal
side, you'll find similar terms and mostly when they were
attacking me personally.
CARLETON: Do you apologise for it?
KEATING: I never attack them personally.
CARLETON: Do you apologise for and of that?
KEATING: Howard, Howard, that was Howard's one success
in politics in last three years. He laid that on me. I
made him pay the price of losing the Prime Ministership
as a result.
CARLETON: Do you apologise for any of it
KEATING: I thought it was moral and even swap.
CARLETON: Should I ask you again?
KEATING: Eh?
CARLETON: Do you apologise for any of that?
KEATING: Oh, I don't I'm not in the apology
business, mate. Look, look, in some countries they
settle their politics across the street in Lebanon they
shoot each other.
CARLETON: Yes, but this is not
KEATING: In this country it's settled in the clearing
house of pressure, the House of Representatives and it
works very nicely and people like you understand well how
it works you've made your living off reporting it.
CARLETON: Yes.
KEATING: So why denigrate the process, Richard?
other people have actually lived off it.
CARLETON: Do you think Australians may have had enough
of your style though, enough of the foul language
KEATING: No, but hang on, that's that's over I
mean, you're really a big issue person aren't you? Here
you are, you've got a chance one week out from an
election to look at the big issues of growth, employment.
I mean, you had an important place in Australian society
on the ABC and you gave it up to be a pop star and now
with a big cheque and now you're on to this sort of
stuff. PM: You've, you've spent half this time on issues which
tre irrelevant and may I say, very unfair to Paul. I
mean, why don't you look at the fact that in those years
in Parliament he's made a series of brilliant,
penetrating speeches in Opposition and in Government,
recognised a lot of people argue he's the most
effective Parliamentarian there is. I mean, made a series
of brilliant speeches and out of all that period you pick
up some language. I mean, part of, part of the
fascination of the character is that he's got a turn of
phrase which a bit tough and rough.
CARLETON: Yes, but
PM: But, but it's part of a much more broad range of
capacity. Why don't you give him credit for that?
CARLETON: Well sure, but all the credit in the world,
Prime Minister
PM: I haven't noticed it.
CARLETON: But if one was to allow him to, in this
context, to talk on about those subjects without being
KEATING: Richard, Richard
CARLETON: may I say, then the..
KEATING: Richard, at least four or five of those words
were said when I was accused of having an illegitimate
child. What would you say? When I didn't. What would
you say?
CARLETON: I'd say it was pretty outrageous..
KEATING: Yes, that's right, but you don't think I should
have responded.
CARLETON: Of course you should have responded.
KEATING: Well.
PM: What are you going on about?
CARLETON: Well you've also got to live down the words
that you use.
KEATING: Well, my friend, I don't ever worry about that.
Look at all this, look at those 14
0PM: interview.
KEATING: Look at those 14 economic statements. Look at
them. They're that big you can hardly jump over them
which took us six and eight months to put together.
All of that, all that concentrated work which you're not
even referring to.
CARLETON: One of the reasons why the economy is in the
present shape, because we're not manufacturing anything
in this country. We're not manufacturing the cameras,
' the lights, anything here
PM: Let's make some facts. Let's take the facts
KEATING: Not true, not true.
PM: We're not manufacturing in this country? OK, let's
. ook at the facts. We are in this country so
8.
transforming our manufacturing industry that in the last
four years we have had a 54 percent increase in the
exports of manufactured goods. Steel industry when we
came to office, BHP on the point of shutting down the
steel industry. In this year, exporting three quarters
of a billion worth of steel right around the world and
within the next three years will be trebling that to over
$ 2 billion. We are one of the most efficient producers
and exporters of steel in the world. Exporting cars and
motor components to Japan and the United States. In the
fiercely competitive area of optical lens, we have there
a factory in the suburbs of Adelaide going into the
United States, the most competitive market in the world
against 11 other companies and it's got over 50 percent
of the market
CARLETON: And a foreign debt of $ 120 billion.
KEATING: Richard, we're rebuilding Australia from an
agrarian runt that produced a bit of wheat and wool to a
modern industrial Australia.
CARLETON: Seven years in, how much longer?
KEATING: And we've concertinaed 20 years of policy
changes into seven. There was no investment in this
economy for 20 years up till 1983. That's why we've got
a problem because the conservatives dropped the ball for
nearly two decades what you're saying
CARLETON: Let's say, let's say seven years you've
had. How much longer?
KEATING: Well, look at the growth, look at the growth of
the economy and the employment in the economy. I mean,
now of putting the capital stock in at a rate which is
unprecedented to produce goods right through the 1990s to
pull the current account down. I mean, the very
substantial thing, the one thing that will get us out of
trouble is production and it can come from one place only
not wishful thinking investment. And how do you get
it? By keeping profits up, by having a proper social
wage and we've got both. We've got all things happening
at once, in spades, in spades.
PM: And in addition to that, a savings plan untold in
this country. Superannuation with which my friend and
colleague, Keating, has been intimately associated, the
development of superannuation. Now let's look at that
CARLETON: Prime Minister, because we can't edit his
remarks, I'm sorry, I've got to keep to time and I must
end it, end now. So thank you, Mr Keating thank you too.
PM: Thank you.
KEATING: Thank you, Richard.
ends