NATIONAL 9 NL1\ VOR( I CANBER( RA I3UI( IAl'-
l'HIESS GALLURY I'ARLIAM ENT. I OUSE CA Nil F RA
lONi7:( 062) 73 3300 FAX: 062) 73309)
Date: 11 February 1990 Time: 0900
Source: National Nine Network Programme: Sunday
Within 3 months, and many pundits are predicting sooner
rather than later, Australia must vote in what' s shaping
up as the closest Federal election in years. So
Sunday's first studio guest in this important year is
the Prime Minister. With better trade figures, easing
interest rates, and the longterm Labor leadership again
being discussed much to talk about. Here to talk with
Mr Hawke is Alan Ramsay of The Sydney Morning Herald, as
well as Sunday's political editor Laurie Oakes.
OAKES: Mr Hawke, welcome again to Sunday.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Thank you very much Laurie.
OAKES: The Macquarie Radio Network has been reporting
this morning that you are going to announce on this
program today the date of the elections. Here's your
chance. PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Thanks. ( amusement all round)
OAKES: You're not going to take it up?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: No, no, I think I'll see the
Governor General first.
OAKES: And when will you do that?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: When I think it's appropriate,
Laurie.
OAKES: Well can I ask you this: Parliament is
scheduled to meet on Tuesday week.
PRIME : MINISTER HAWKE: Um ( affirmative noise)
OAKES: Will the Parliament meet then? Are you going to
do that?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, if I answered that question
one way or the other it would give you some sort of an
answer to the timetable. I'm not going to make any
announcement about the timing of the election until I
think it's appropriate, Laurie, either directly or
indirectly.
OAKES: That refusal leaves open an election on the 17
March? PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I suppose hypothetically it does.
OAKES: Do you want to leave that open?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, I just... um... am not going
to deviate from what I said to a number of pressing
inquirers. None of them is sort of devious as you or
clever as you Laurie, in trying to get there, but it's
the same answer. I'll make my announcement when I'm
ready to.
OAKES: But you said a few weeks ago that Parliament
would sit?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, it will have to sit
sometime, won't it?
RAMSAY: Prime Minister, if we can try another way.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yes.
RAMSAY: the climate has improved for the
Government lately...
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yes
RAMSAY: and your opponents seem to be doing all they
can to help you. Is it tempting although we're only
talking about 3 months is it tempting to go soon
rather than later?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I ' spose the honest answer must
be that when they are making just a mess of things, I
think that what's really happening, Alan, is that
they're revealing... ar... what people knew about them;
that is, they hadn't done their work. And as that
becomes more apparent I suppose there's some temptation.
But you've got to take a whole range of things into
account. Quite... quite clearly the... er... this
Parliament is, in everyone's judgement, now run its
term. So any time between now and May is acceptable.
Now, there hasn't been a Prime Minister, I guess, in
history who won't operate on the basis that he'll chose
the time which he thinks he can maximise the opportunity
of.. of.. of victory, and that's what I'll do.
OAKES: Your momentum seems to have stalled in the
last few days, as a result of Senator Button's comments
on... on this alleged deal for the succession......
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I don't feel that judgement. I
mean I made it quite clear that Senator Button didn't
know what he was talking about. And I think in this
sort of.. er.. context, the electorate will say that the
Prime Minister probably knows more about his intentions
than Senator Button does. I mean, that's so obvious that
it hardly requires any more conversation, I think.
OAKES: But what is it about John Button. I mean this
is not the first time, far from it, that he's
embarrassed you with this sort of frank comment. Why
does he enjoy this sort of immunity? Is it because
he.. er.. his role in planting the knife in Bill Hayden
all those years ago?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Oh, I don't know about planting
a knife. That's your assessment, not mine. But John is
one of the foreleaders, he's leader of the Government
in the Senate. I guess he feels that in that role he
has a little bit more... discretion. I'm not sure that
he's always used it as wisely as he might, but my
relations with Senator Button are good. I mean, let's
when we're talking about John Button, understand that
he's been an outstanding Minister for Industry.
Absolutely outstanding. And I value his contribution to
this Government enormously.
OAKES: Seriously, though, despite what you're saying
for election reasons, we've got to expect, haven't we,
that Paul Keating will become leader sometime in the
next term if you win? You've got to make the changeover
sometime? PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Become leader in the next term?
OAKES: If you win.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, I believe we'll win. And
I've also said that I will remain leader for the whole
of the term. Now, I'm not going to change that
statement.
OAKES: If there's no chance of becoming leader, then
why is Paul Keating there in the tabloids every day with
his kids, engaging in all that fairy floss that in the
past he's refused to be part of?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, you'll have to ask Paul
that. But....
OAKES: He clearly wants to be leader...
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well.. er.. he has made no secret
of the fact, but the question is of time.
And.. ah.. after I've, as I say, hopefully, and I believe
I will, have the led the party to victory in this coming
election, I'll take it through the full term. Then the
er.. party will be in the fortunate position
of.. ah.. having there a person in Paul Keating who wants
to be leader, who has eminent capacities for that job.
But that will be.... and that timetable that I'm talking
about. And to the extent that he is showing his human
face, that's no more than I've suggested for a long time
that he should do, because as you know, both of you, he
has very great human qualities which.. er.. are not always
apparent because he's seen as the tough, hard,
calculating Treasurer. But underneath that there's a
very warm human being.
RAMSAY: Prime Minister, back in 1983 you were asked
you had been Prime Minister 3 or 4 months and you were
asked how long you'd like to remain Prime Minister, and
you said 3 terms.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Um ( affirmative noise)
RAMSAY: And that if you couldn't do in 3 terms what you
wanted to do, then you thought it was reasonable then to
get out and give somebody else a go. Now, why do you
now not take your own advice?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well.. ah.. 3 terms, you've got to
remember the first term was rather short, where you had
the election in March of ' 83 and the next election was
the end of ' 84. Um.. and.. ah.. these things ought to be
said now, that.. ah.. the party clearly wants me to stay
as leader. And if I can say so, modestly as far as the
polls are concerned, the people want me as leader. And
I must say I've never felt fitter physically, or more on
top mentally. And I'm a better leader now than I was
when I started; by definition, I mean, you'd be a fool
if you weren't. So if you take all those things
together I think.. ah.. ah.. it adds up to doing this next
term. RAMSAY: Only one extra term?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Oh, I think so, Alan, yeah.
OAKES: Why are you so sensitive about this succession
question? Is Paul Keating really that much on the nose
that you.. you..
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I mean, I would have thought that
if you.. if you just played the reel which showed Hawke
absolutely relaxed about this issue, and a couple of
interviewers who seem to be agitated about it,
not sensitive, I'm totally relaxed about it.
You know my relations with Paul are excellent...
OAKES: But do you think that if.. if people believed he
would become leader in the next term, that the Labor
party would suffer electorally?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, I see that that's written,
and that's why of course.. er.. an Opposition which is
devoid itself of policies, who can only reveal its own
ineptitude, is trying to divert attention from those
facts by asserting what isn't true; that is, that if
you vote for Bob Hawke, it's really a vote for Paul
Keating. Now there are 2 things about that: one, as I
say, it shows an attempt on their part that they can't
talk about their own policy positions, they've got to
divert. And of course it's... I must say it's a
backhanded compliment to me, and I thank Andrew for it.
RAMSAY: Prime Minister, assuming Peter Dowding, the
West Australian Premier, gets the chop tomorrow, you're
not going to be displeased, are you? It's going to help
you over in Western Australia in the coming election?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, Alan, ( couple of unclear
words) when I went to Western Australia during the week,
it was a very difficult situation for me because there
move was on for. . ah. . replacement of Peter. I
tried really to.. to be as standoff as far as I could
from that. I was asked a question about.. ah. . Carmen
Lawrence. I answered what I had to about her in terms
of my truthful understanding of her, ah. . what I know of
her, ah. . answered that. But it's a matter for them.
If.. if that happens, um.. indications seem to be that it
may happen, well I guess the people of Western
Australian will have some different perception
about.. ah. the state Government there. I guess that's
right. I mean it would be silly for me to deny that.
RAMSAY: And you would gain from a Carmen Lawrence
honeymoon? Is that what you're saying?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, I'm not. . ah. . putting it
that way. But, wouldn't it be silly for me to get up
and try and say to two blokes like you who follow
politics closely, who know that the indications are that
the state Government over there is not looking too
brilliant, to try and say to you, now if there's a
change of leadership that may not be a plus. I mean,
I'm not going to be as silly as that; I think it
probably will be a plus, but I can't put
myself, and I'm not going to put myself in a position of
being part of that process over there. I mean, that is
for the state parliamentary Labor party....
RAMSAY: Well, the Victorian Labor party isn't looking
too flash either. Does the same thing apply to them?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: No it isn't,
absolutely. . analogy there, I think, and
again there'Is no suggestion, as f ar as. er. er. Victoria
concerned, as far as I know, that.. er.. wanted it
changed, their leadership there. I haven't seen or
heard anything to that effect.
RAMSAY: No, but aren't the same sort problems besetting
the John Cain Government down in Victoria, the same sort
of problems that they've got over in Western Australia?
Allegations and.. and persistent and continuing
allegations of economic mismanagement?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Oh.. I think they're somewhat
different. Let.. let me say this at any rate, I mean,
the important point as far as I'm concerned if this
Alan, and Laurie, that, and I made the point while I was
in Perth, that.. er.. you've got to take a rather peculiar
view of your viewer ordinary Mr and Mrs Australia to
believe that.. um.. we're going to be punished, or
punished in any significant way, for some perception on
the part of the West Australian voter, or a Victorian
voter, that they don't like something that the state
Governments have done. I mean, it means, as I said in
Western Australia, that people are unintelligent, are
masochist, that they're going to say: we know that this
election is about Federal issues, and I'm going to vote
to give myself the abolition of Medicare and all that's
involved in the nonsense of the.. er.. Opposition on
health.. OAKES: But Prime Minister...
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: on education. I'm going to do
that, I'm going to punish myself.. er.. by.. to.. to punish
Dowding or Cain.
OAKES: ( overtalk gabble) people in Queensland will
vote for you because they like Wayne Goss. The
Opposition must...
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: I believe there is simply no
analogy there. Let me make the point in regard to
Queensland, as I have to others who have raised this
point, that in.. ah.. ah.. Western Australia, Laurie, and
Victoria, there is not and never has been any suggestion
of venality, or corruption. None whatsoever. Whereas
in Queensland, what you were faced with was a generation
of conservative corruption. There's no analogy
whatsoever. OAKES: Except over in Western Australia. I mean,
you're well aware, some of your people say, federal
people have been giving it an ubdulong ( phonetic) there
lately simply because the climate against Labor is so
strong. PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: The climate against the state
Labor Government.. er.. er.. was not, was not good, and
there's been some perception that a change of leadership
would be helpful. I considered that earlier in the
program, yeah.
OAKES: Prime Minister, interest rates.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yep.
OAKES: Can home buyers expect mortgage relief soon?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, I'm not going to dodge the
question or answer, but I must give, you know, a preface
to my answer, that I have to be extraordinarily careful
in anything I say in this, because I don't want to be
saying something which of itself can influence the money
market. But let me, with that preface Laurie, make
these points, briefly. Ah.. interest rates, as you know,
have been kept high by us under Government policy, with
tight fiscal policy and tight wages policy, because the
simple statistic, and let me put it this way: last
year.. er.. we.. er.. er.. we consumed about 4% more than we
produced. There was about an 8% increase in
consumption, 4% increase in production, and that gap
more imports. Now we can't keep on doing that, so high
interest rates to slow things down. Now, it has been
evident, recently, that those policies have been
working, therefore, the change which has seen a
reduction in the cash rates and the bill rates, and
obviously mortgage rates, are related to what the banks
themselves have to pay for their working capital. Now,
the conditions are there for a reduction in mortgage
rates, but when that is made will be a decision by the
banks in the light of any further changes that may take
place in the level of the cash rates and the associated
bill rates. I think the conditions are there for it,
and obviously the market, if you look at the
relationship between the 90 day bill rate and the cash
rate, the market is expecting that situation to occur.
RAMSAY: Prime Minister, how to you get people to
believe you? How do you convince people that.. er.. it's
not all a fiddle? That they're going to ease the
conditions before the election and then as soon as the
election is over, and if you win, up they go again.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well there it's very easy. I
mean, don't depend upon me, look at what the market's
saying. The market has been saying, the whole range of
analysists, in fact they were ahead of us, a lot of them
were saying: look you should be easing them now. We
were the ones who really waited. So the markets have
er.. have er.. validated by their comments and by their
actions, the policy decision that we've taken.
OAKES: Prime Minister we'll take a break there. We'll
be back in just a moment.
OAKES: Welcome back. Prime Minister, 6 months ago on
this program you said that because of the budget surplus
tax cuts could again be on the agenda in the next round
of wage negotiations with the ACTU. Now those
negotiations are under way, can we still expect more tax
cuts? PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, it's obviously.. er. . er.. and
that'll be on the agenda. And.. er.. we are in the
fortunate position, I mean, well I can say to your
viewers, well, look, don't speculate about what we might
do, look we've been there for 6 years, and on each
occasion we've been able to negotiate with the ACTU and
then have confirmed by the Commission an arrangement
which means, in essence, that is distinct from the past,
under the conservatives, where the cost of employment
was simply loaded onto the employer and therefore onto
inflation. Part of the remuneration, if you like, the
total disposable income situation of employees comes
about as well by a relationship of tax cuts and the
social wage, so it'll be, it'll be on the table.
RAMSAY: What about childcare, Prime Minister? That's
going to be an issue.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, I've talked about that,
Alan, yeah, and we're in the fortunate position, as you
know, of having a good story on childcare. We've more
than doubled the number of places....
OAKES: But the Opposition's going to... sorry Alan...
RAMSAY: they're going to quadruple the spending
that you've already promised.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, errrr, I'll deal
with.. er.. what the Opposition may or may not be doing in
that area, at the appropriate time. But it's a fair
comment, that childcare will be one of the things they
will want us to look at. And we'll have some
discussions with them about it.
RAMSAY: And will you be making a commitment during the
election campaign, on this particular issue?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: It's.. er.. one of the issues that
we may be addressing. But I just want to make it clear,
Alan, in regard to that or any other issue, as distinct
from the Opposition, if we are making any commitments,
whether it's in regard to childcare or anything else,
we'll be making it absolutely clear how those things are
funded, as distinct from, as you both know, the.. ah..
credibility gap, fiscal gap, that the Opposition now
have, which is over $ 6 billion.
OAKES: Well, Prime Minister, the present wage deal
doesn't expire until September. So why are you
negotiating accord mark 6, 7 months ahead of time.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Look, if you look back over the
period, you always negotiate in advance. You can't wait
until the thing's I mean, what a funny...
OAKES: But you'd wait until you were sure you were
in Government, surely?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: But.. but that sounds like the way
the Opposition do business: I mean, we haven't got a
policy, we'll think about it, and then after the event,
we'll then tell you we haven't got one. What you do
when you're managing an economy, is you have your fiscal
policy, your wages policy in place, you see that if
that's going to expire in advance, you say, now what's
the next step. That's what we're doing.
RAMSAY: Seven months ahead of time is a long time?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, it's not, it's not unusual
in terms of what we've done in the past....
RAMSAY: So it's not just the wave of a fistful of
dollars in front of the voters there at election time?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: No, it's certainly isn't. I
mean, it.. er. . obviously isn't. We.. er.. did a.. er.. er.. a
wage tax deal last year, and you remember all the talk
there was from the Opposition? That was when Howard was
the leader, and the tax cuts were going to be there in
front of next ( phonetic), and we gave the tax cuts last
year because we were going to have an election. Now,
it's a nonsense. When you're conducting economic
policy, you've got to be able to let the business
community know, as well as employees, what the picture
is so that they can plan both in their places as
consumers and employers in terms of their cost. And
they need to know not on the day, they need to be able
to plan in advance. Now, it's responsible for us, in
the early part of 1990, to work these things out so that
your viewers, in their role as wage and salary earners
and in their role as employers, are going to know the
economic environment in which they're operating. And
it's only from the Hawke Labor that they'll know that.
How in the hell would they ever know from this
uncoordinated, unfunded, mish-mash, which is the
Opposition position.
OAKES: How did your election strategies show the
Coalition as knowing nothing about industrial relations;
the Government is the expert in the field, the ones who
can deal with the unions? That being the case, why do
you keep following in the footsteps of the Opposition?
I mean, now you're talking about enterprise bargaining;
you're embracing that.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, it's a nice, provocative
way of putting it, and you know it's not right because
we have, in fact, been into this before the Opposition
were talking about it. Under the Section 115 agreement,
this sort of thing's been going on. Who was it that
introduced.. ah.. award restructuring? It was us. We
don't talk, as the other people do, as they do about
health, announce yes, we're going to have a health
policy, and not have it; talk about enterprise
bargaining. In a gradual, evolutionary way, we have
introduced the elements of enterprise bargaining under
the overall umbrella of award restructuring. Because
when you take the metal trades, for instance, now what
did you have there? You had about 350 different
classifications. We said you're going to get that down
to about 8 or 9. Now you don't do that by having
negotiations simply at the national level. That's then
got to be reflected down in the enterprise. And that's
what's been going on. We haven't been making noises
about enterprise bargaining, we've been bringing it in,
in an evolutionary way. But the difference, Laurie and
Alan, between our action and their talk, is that at all
points, the relationship between enterprise bargaining
and national aggregate wage outcomes has been there,
enabling us to say, this is what for the nation the
aggregate wage outcome will be. You don't have the
Prime Minister, when you ask him a question about
outcome, doing the Andrew Peacock. When you ask the
crucial question at the press conference, the absolutely
critical question, what's going to be aggregate wage
outcome leader of the Opposition: who's to know? At
least it's an appropriate response because no one would
know under their position. Under ours, where you have
a relationship between enterprise bargaining and the
centralised system, we're able to tell employees and
employers and everyone who's planning the economy, what
the aggregate wages outcome is going to be.
RAMSAY: Now, Prime Minister, something a bit more
basic: road funding.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yep.
RAMSAY: It's become a lively issue since those 2 big,
terrible bus crashes
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yes, it has, Alan
RAMSAY: How about a commitment on that?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Well, let me just preface the
answer to that by saying what the facts are: that in
our period of government, we've spent 18% more in real
terms on roads than in the 7 years of the Fraser
government. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. So
let's... RAMSAY: We've still got a lousy road between Sydney
and Brisbane.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Alan, I'm not saying that the
road system is perfect, my friend. I'm simply setting
the scene by saying, the fact that under the Hawke 7
years of government there's been 18% more in real terms,
that's almost a 1/ 4 billion more, spent on roads than by
our predecessors. That doesn't mean that we've got to
be complacent. Now, we will be prepared to discuss with
the states this issue. I mean, I've made $ 110 million
available for the black spot program, but I think most
concerned people, and I hope you would agree, that we've
related that to trying to get them, the states, to come
in to accept national standards in regard to road
safety. So we're prepared to cooperate with the states,
but maybe that we'll need to go further than the $ 110
million that we've talked about.
OAKES: Prime Minister, another issue that's arousing
some heat. The question of foreign investment in
commercial television networks. The.. er.. your Minister
Ralph Willis has made conflicting statements, keeps
moving the goal post. When's the Government finally
going to make up its mind on the issue?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Um.. the Minister is having
further discussions on this issue. I expect he'll be
coming to us within a fortnight with some consideration,
but I'm obviously not going to, even on a program which
is as interested in these issues as I know this
program, this station is. I not going
OAKES: Well, every network's affected by this.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Sure, sure, sure. Well, er.. what
we're faced with of course, as you know, in the
television industry, in this country, is that because of
some unreal.. um.. um.. pricing decisions that were taken,
um.. the fundamental, what I believe is the fundamental
health of the television, I mean, I believe we've got a
magnificent television industry, fundamentally, in this
country. But its capacity to operate has
been.. er.. disrupted by some unreal pricing decisions,
and loaded with interest burdens which are.. are.. are
unreal in relation to the nature of the operation. Now,
ummm.. that is.. ah.. colouring, if you like, people's
perceptions about ownership, because they are saying the
only we're going to be able to deal, ah, with, ah,
ownership, and perhaps ownership threats, is by opening
up.. ah.. ownership.. ah.. some say almost an unlimited way
for owners. Now you've just got to understand in this
issue that I think the Australian people, generally,
have some fairly strong thoughts about how far they're
prepared to have, er, their media in general and
television in particular, owned overseas.
RAMSAY: But do you acknowledge that by the Government
delaying on this decision, by procrastinating if you
like, that you're helping Kerry Packer's attempt to
regain the Nine Network?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: What I, what I acknowledge is
that if I make any decision, one way and another, it's
going to be seen to be, and in a sense.. in effect would
be. I mean, put the question in another way, Alan. If
I were to say unlimited overseas ownership, that would
be helping Bond media, and so where do you win in that
situation?
OAK ES: Prime Minister, we're almost out of time, but
your wife Hazel.' s over the front pages of all the papers
today, and going on 60 Minutes tonight, that she once
consulted a divorce lawyer.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Yep.
OAKES: I mean, what did you do that drove her to that?
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Oh, I think that's fairly
recorded. had the.. the opportunity this morning
of hearing Hazel on the subject, and she is rather irate
about the way it's been represented. That's it's saying,
as I think when you read the story, she... er... she took
that course of action to see what her options were, and
she asserts that she never had any intention, she file,
she didn't seek to.. er.. I think that my life is a pretty
well-documented sort of thing. As I've said
before.. er.. Laurie, there are parts of it of which I'm
not particularly proud, there are many parts of
which.. of which I'm very, very proud. And I think the
fact is that.. er.. after 40 years or more, Hazel's,
through that period, made the decision, sure there have
been some warts, but the pluses, in her judgement, and
I'm very glad she's made it, fairly significantly
outweigh the.. the minuses. I thank her for making that
decision because she's been a marvellous partner.
OAKES: And we thank you for appearing on the program.
We'll see a lot of you in the election campaign.
PRIME MINISTER HAWKE: Thank you very much Laurie, Alan.
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( Transcript by Monitair Pty Limited)
Inquiries to Peter Harvey, Press Gallery, Parliament
House, Canberra.