PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF UNEDITED INTERVIEW WITH PAUL LYNEHAM, 7.30
REPORT, 13 DECEMBER 1989
E 0 E PROOF ONLY
LYNEHAM: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us.
PM: Pleasure.
LYNEHAM: Well you're heading for the holidays at the end
of this week with the mortgage rates still at 17% and
according to today's Morgan Gallup Poll you're 2-1/ 2%
behind the Opposition. It's not much of a Christmas
present really is it?
PM: Well, I'm not going off to the break in any sense of
depression. I watch the polls with interests, as you
know, and I don't get carried away when I'm down, I don't
get exuberant when I'm up. I believe that we've shown as
we come to the end of this year that we are still a
tough, resilient, decision making Government and the
contrast with the alternative is becoming starker and
starker, I believe.
LYNEHAM: Of course if we rely on your forecast of last
January, just before the Western Australian election that
interest rates would fall this year, we're due for some
sort of economic miracle between now and new year's eve,
are we?
PM: Well, I've got nothing more to say about interest
rates. I've made my position quite clear about them.
The important thing there is that we' re making the
decisions-LYNEHAM: You did say it, Prime Minister.
PM: Well I said it then and as I've said before every
economic forecaster in the country public and privateunderestimated
the strength in demand in the country. So
I'm with everyone else in that respect. I simply say
that we're making the right decisions, sticking to the
hard policies which are necessary to create the
conditions for a fall in interest rates.
LYNEHAM: Do you regret saying it?
PM: No, I think in the circumstances where I was asked
to make a comment, I did it in good faith in the light of
the assessment that every economist was making at that
time, every economist.
LYNEHAM: Because your critics will say it's another
version of Hawke shooting from the lip, like no child
shall live in poverty. You've only got 18 days to pull
that one off as well, so they'd say.
PM: Well, anyone who talks about this is talking a
nonsense. I mean I do no more than rely on the statement
of the Institute of Family Studies of Australia, the
Brotherhood of St Laurence and ACOSS,' that we have
delivered ahead of schedule on the promise that we would
deliver in financial terms, that amount of money which
would create the situation where there was no financial
need for any child to live in poverty. The assessment of
those that are out there in a daily sense dealing with
this are saying that that financial promise has been
delivered. LYNEHAM: And now you've written to the States calling
welfare ministers together next month to talk about
delivery of government services to kids.
PM: Yes. As I said when I was talking to ACOSS
Australian Council of Social Services there about a
month ago Paul, in the area of poverty the Government can
deliver as we have in terms of now over $ 2B per annum
to meet the financial needs. But there are other factors
which go to poverty, the delivery and the availability of
a range of services. Now those services are shared
between the States and the Commonwealth and what I've
decided should be done is to have a meeting of the
relevant Commonwealth and State Ministers and I believe
there will be co-operation to see that we do everything
we possibly can to co-ordinate our activities to maximise
the accessibility, availability and delivery of those
services. LYNEHAM: What services are you thinking then?
PM: Oh well, there are counselling services, for
instance, and there are other forms of assistance that
are available through a range of agencies. The thing
that I promised in ' 87 and which the welfare sector
acknowledges and I'm thankful to them for is that
we've delivered on the financial promise. I mean as I was
saying today when I, at Queanbeyan, was recognising the
second birthday of the family allowance supplement, and
may I say amongst the women there with their kids, no
cynicism, just gratitude. Recognising as I said, that in
a case of a one income family on $ 320 a week earnings
with three kids, that $ 109 a week tax free family
allowance supplement is equal to a wage increase of $ 167
a week. You don't get any cynicism there, Paul.
LYNEHAM: Now you're saying on interest rates that you
believe that they'll be down before the middle of next
year and they'll stay down.
PM: I'm not going to say anything more about that. I
was asked the question and the important thing that I
want to emphasise is what I've said before in answer to
an earlier question from you. That is that we believe
that we are adhering to the range of economic policy,
tough fiscal policy, tight wages policy and a tight
monetary policy that will produce the conditions we
believe where interest rates can come down. I'm not
going to say anything more than that.
LYNEHAM: But you're not backing away from that stand?
PM: No, I'm not backing away. I'm simply saying I've
said what I've-got to say about that.
LYNEHAM: But why should that statement be, in the long
run, seen as any more likely to occur than the forecast
you made back in January?
PM: Well, I would think that the evidence is emerging of
the slowing down of the economy which is what these
policy stances have been about it.
LYNEHAM: Some say it's getting too slow now.
PM: Well, some are indicating we might be getting to
that point and that's precisely what the fine art of
economic judgement is now to make sure that you don't
take them off too soon nor too late. I believe we'll get
it right.
LYNEHAM: Just getting back to today's Morgan Poll, both
Labor and the Opposition are down in their totals and
there's about 13-1/ 2% of voters out there now going for
either the Democrats or others. Do you think people are
getting a bit sick and tired of big name politicians, big
party machines?
PM: I don't know whether they're getting sick and tired.
I mean I think the right analysis is this; that it's
quite true -as I've said publicly on a number of
occasions -people don't like high interest rates.
That's hurting. And so they're probably taking a little
bit of support away from us at the moment. But the
corollary of that is that they will not buy Andrew
Peacock and who can blame them and so they're saying,
' well alright, we're not going to indicate that we like
what you're doing at the moment. We certainly don't look
at the other mob as an alternative'. So residually, more
votes going to the other people.
LYNEHAM: Andrew's disapproval rating is 54%, yours is
47%, they're both pretty high aren't they? Isn't it a
plague on both your houses?
PM: If you want to compare you know between myself and
Andrew, in the end I guess the thing is as between the
two of us who do they prefer as Prime Minister, and
overwhelmingly it's myself against Mr Peacock.
LYNEHAM: Now you've said if you win again you'll stay on
for a full fourth term.
PM: Correct.
LYNEHAM: Is that an absolute iron-clad guarantee to the
voters? PM: Sure.
LYNEHAM: I mean you might be expected to say that
anyway, of course, a cynic would suggest.
PM: Well I'm a very young, fit, active, healthy, vibrant
S 60 year old. Why should I be thinking of any other
course? LYNEHAM: Wouldn't it though be better to let your
successor because you wouldn't stay on through the
fifth term would you, as you've said that?
PM: Well I can't go on for ever.
LYNEHAM: No, exactly. Wouldn't it be better then to let
your successor lead Labor to the polls for that fifth
time, presumably Paul Keating?
PM: I wouldn't think so. Why should it be better?
LYNEHAM: Well because you're leading a team that is not
going to be led by you through that Government
presumably.
0 PM: At some stage you have to make a decision that
you've given enough of your time and that it's time for
someone else to come on. I'm simply saying that I don't
see that as being before the end of that next term. Then
sometime during the term after that I would say alright,
we hand over.
LYNEHAM: Five wins on the trot would be a hell of a job
for anyone, wouldn't it?
PM: Well, it depends on two things. One, that you are
continuing to deliver good and relevant government, both
in terms of Australia's domestic needs and the place of
Australia in the world. I'd be continuing to do that
with my colleagues. The second thing is the alternative
and one of the unfortunate features of Australian
politics is that the conservatives haven't got their act
together. It's going to take them a long time to do it,
I think.
LYNEHAM: If you lose next year though you'll go.
PM: That's what I've indicated I mean I believe a
totally hypothetical question. I honestly believe
without being cocky or complacent that we will win.
I've simply said in answer to that hypothetical question,
I would think that that'd be the case. It would need a
great deal of pressure from my Party to persuade me to
stay on.
LYNEHAM: There's every likelihood too that if you did
lose Paul Keating would go as well, which raises the
prospect of a very different looking Labor opposition,
doesn't it?
PM: Yes, but I mean we're wasting time I think talking
about a totally hypothetical situation.
LYNEHAM: That hypothetical, it is?
PM: I think so.
LYNEHAM: Have you had any good suggestions from your
Ministers yet for your fourth term?
PM: I must say there is a lot of nonsense talked at
least in one paper about this begging for new ideas. I
mean nothing different has changed there. Whenever I've
been coming up to an election I, at some stage months
beforehand, I've said, ' well now look, what are your
thoughts now about how you would like me to be thinking
in the presentation of the policy speech, new emphases,
or some new directions', and yes, I've had good
responses, as I've had before.
LYNEHAM: When are we going to hear about some of them?
PM: In the right and proper time of my choosing.
LYNEHAM: What about a mortgage relief scheme? I mean
it's good enough for John Bannon, it's good enough for
Wayne Goss. Why not Bob Hawke?
PM: We looked at that and on a national scale we didn't
think it was appropriate. At least there's one point on
which the Opposition and we agree and that is neither the
Opposition nor the Government think it's appropriate. In
a State to State level they've got the responsibility
within their assessment of their financial capacities and
their assessment of the needs of their community. if
they want to make that judgement, that's a judgement for
them to make.
LYNEHAM: It does mean though doesn't it that if you are
holding a mortgage and you're lucky enough to be in a
State that's had an election recently then you get a bit
of a help? If you're not so lucky, well stiff cheese.
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PM: Yes, well that is true to an extent. But the
important thing nationally is that you have a Government
which is going to take the range of policies which is
going to create the condition for a fall and a
sustainable fall in rates. Now we believe we've got
those policies in place.
LYNEHAM: The pilots' dispute. You said last week that
it would be your very strong recommendation to both
airlines that they not attempt to collect damages against
the Pilots' Federation. Have you talked to them yet
because there's no sign of them being at all as merciful
as you seem to be?
PM: I've given that indication to them and of course
there may be some difficulty as far as they are concerned
in that they are actually still in the courts. The
matter has got to be discussed. There may be some
inhibitions upon what they are able to do at this stage.
That's their business. I've made my position clear.
LYNEHAM: It's been put to me that they weren't very
happy that you made your position clear at that time.
PM: I've seen lots of things put about lots of different
propositions about states of happiness and unhappiness.
If I believed everything I read in the newspapers I'd
probably be inhabiting another form of asylum to this
place. LYNEHAM: Do you think it will come to pass though that
they will show this quality of mercy that you've alluded
to? PM: I hope so. I hope so.
LYNEHAM: You hope so. But you're not all that
confident? PM: Well it's not my decision. I mean I haven't been
running the airlines. Certainly we've had discussions
with them throughout the period of this problem in the
industry. But I don't run them and even in the airline
that the people own, that the Government owns, we haven't
been directing them as to how they should behave during
the period of these difficulties. Now
LYNEHAM: They were at your party on Saturday night Prime
Minister, Sir Peter Abeles and Ted Harris. You must have
got some vibes from them.
PM: We, all of us at the party were relaxing. We
weren't discussing business.
LYNEHAM: Foreign Minister Gareth Evans' peace plan for
Cambodia.
PM: Yes.
LYNEHAM: You've had Mike Costello, a senior Foreign
Affairs official in Ho Chi Minh City recently having
talks with Cambodians and Vietnamese. How have things
been going?
PM: Paul not only there, but even before he went there,
Gareth Evans was getting good responses from Dick Solomon
from the United States, the Under Secretary of State for
this region in the Administration. There were quite
positive responses there as there were from Mr Alatas,
the Indonesian Foreign Minister. Now there were positive
responses in his discussions in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh
City. So much so that Mr Costello has gone on to Phnom
Penh. And I can say to you here on this program now that
as a result of the sorts of reactions that we're getting,
but acknowledging that there are great difficulties
-involved in the proposition as there are in all the
others that are on the table, Gareth and I have had a
discussion not, I haven't spoken to him directly but
I've arranged that there be discussions through my people
and we've agreed that Mr Costello should now go on to
Beijing because China is obviously a player in the
resolution in the Cambodian tragedy. We think it
appropriate to send Mr Costello there to expound to the
Chinese leadership the thinking that is behind our
proposal and to see, hopefully, if we could get a
positive response from them.
LYNEHAM: The Chinese have been very strong backers of
the Khmer Rouge haven't they?
PM: Yes indeed, yes.
LYNEHAM: So if the Khmer Rouge is to be isolated as a
player in this game presumably Chinese support is
critical.
* PM: Well obviously if you were our chances of getting
acceptance of the proposal that we're talking about would
be very much enhanced if the Chinese were to see merit in
it. Because you see the critically difficult issue that
is confronting everyone that's concerned with getting a
resolution of the Cambodian problem is getting some form
of interim administration between now and when the free
elections can be held. And there's a lot of concern in a
lot of quarters that because of the horrendous history of
the Khmer Rouge when they were in control in Cambodia
that they could not
LYNEHAM: The killing fields?
PM: Well of course. And there's a lot of concern that
they should have no role in that interim process. Now
our idea of a UN interim administration is calculated to
meet in part that problem. Now obviously if China, who
as you rightly say have been backers of the Khmer Rouge
in the past, were to see merit in our proposal that would
be very helpful.
LYNEHAM: When would you assume Mr Costello would arrive
in Beijing?
PM: I would think he'd be going reasonably soon. It
would have to be confirmed with the Chinese authorities.
LYNEHAM: That would be the most senior he would be the
most senior Australian official to visit there since the
June massacre wouldn't he?
PM: Yes. And may I say what he's going there for is in
regard to our proposal in regard to trying to get a
settlement in Cambodia. It's not, he's not going there
for other purposes.
LYNEHAM: He doesn't have any other agenda?
PM: No I obviously when he's there there may be some
discussion but he's not going there briefed to argue
positions. I mean other than making it quite clear in
any matter that may arise, any discussion that may arise,
the clear position of my Government in regard to what
happened in China earlier this year.
LYNEHAM: Now, there are three Chinese dissidents due to
visit here next week from Paris. The Chinese say that we
shouldn't let them in, it would be meddling in Chinese
internal affairs.
PM: Yes, one of the head figures of this organisation,
Wan Runnan has applied for a visa and that's been
granted. I understand that the Chinese authorities are
not too happy about this. But what they have to
understand is that this is a pluralistic society within
which the freedom of expression is a fundamental right,
it's one of the fundamental values of our society. Now
in those circumstances this person can come here provided
of course that he observes and abides by the law of this
country. LYNEHAM: Jervis Bay. If you're not going to move the
Navy there, does it make much sense to move the
ammunition dump there?
PM: Well prima facie there'd be obviously a serious
question mark about the appropriateness in those
circumstances. But as I pointed out the other day, we
will allow the EIS studies to go ahead because things
could come out of that which would be relevant to your
consideration of the circumstances as to where it would
go if you were shifting it from Sydney.
LYNEHAM: What do you think of the idea of turning it
into a national park? It's a very beautiful place.
PM: Yes it is very beautiful. I remember Paul at the
beginning of the 1984 election I went down there and the
naval commander said Prime Minister, he said, you see
that beautiful point over there, that wooded point coming
down? And I said yes it looks beautiful. He said well
when they were thinking about where they'd establish the
national capital, and this was one of the sites, that was
going to be the Prime Minister's residence. I must say
LYNEHAM: Bad luck.
PM: I must say it was very attractive.
LYNEHAM: Also on the green front it looks as though
we' re seeing another dust-up now between Senator
Richardson and John Kerin.
PM: Untrue.
LYNEHAM: Untrue?
PM: Untrue.
LYNEHAM: So there's no disagreement about the definition
of sustainable development?
PM: No. I would think if Mr Kerin were asked about
Senator Richardson's speech of yesterday I don't think
you would find Mr Kerin expressing any disagreement.
LYNEHAM: What do you think sustainable development
means? Does it mean we have careful development or less
development or a bit of both?
PM: It's precisely Paul because sustainable development
has come to mean different things to different people. I
had this meeting the other day and I was very grateful to
the representatives of the mining industry, the farmers
and the forestry industry to come and join with the
Australian Conservation Foundation and the Wilderness
Society together with my four Ministers and we agreed
that there were different interpretations of what it
meant and they responded to my suggestion that we would
prepare a discussion paper on the meanings and
implications of sustainable development. We will do
that. We will have that developed and distributed.
LYNEHAM: It does mean different things to everybody
doesn't it?
PM: Precisely. And that's because different people want
it to mean different things. And that's why they agreed
that it would be a good thing for us to prepare a
discussion paper and then we'll distribute that and these
various groups will come together, respond to it and we
believe that on that basis we can get some acceptable
sort of definition even if people don't agree with every
element of it. From there we will move to having working
groups in all the areas of fisheries, forestry, mining,
manufacturing, energy so that we can apply the broad
concepts to what are then sensible working rules for
development in these various sectors of the economy.
LYNEHAM: You wept publicly again recently when you were
talking about your dad.
PM: Well I think to say I wept is a
LYNEHAM: You didn't?
PM: Well, could I finish? I said to say that I wept is
I think putting it rather I certainly had a couple of
tears in my eyes. I make no apologies for that as I
haven't about any other occasion when I've had tears in
my eyes. I have just been thinking a lot about my dad
recently Paul and he is getting very old and very frail.
And as I said I love him very much. I don't think I have
to apologise or explain to you or anyone else that if I
think about someone I love that dearly, if I get a tear
in my eye, so be it.
LYNEHAM: Well we've rather got used to that haven't we?
PM: I don't know whether you have or not. It's a matter
of supreme indifference to me whether you have.
LYNEHAM: What sort of reaction are you getting though?
What do people say when they write to you or speak to
you? PM: Well for what it's worth, the people who get in
touch with me, it's very positive. But let me say this.
I mean it's a matter of indifference to me. It's like
whether I'm fat or thin or have a wart on the end of my
nose. In my physiological makeup, not something I
choose, that happens to me. I make no apology for it.
O It is a fact of life. It is not contrived. I think if I
could press a button if I knew that I was starting to get
emotional, if I could press a button I'd stop it. But
for better or worse there's no button to press Paul.
LYNEHAM: Are you going on holidays on Friday?
PM: Yes.
LYNEHAM: Back on January 8?
PM: I think we're back here next week for a day.
LYNEHAM: That's right. $ 200,000 to bring the House of
Reps back for a couple of days. Why
PM: ( inaudible)
LYNEHAM: Why wouldn't people say hang on, can't they
manage the affairs of government better?
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PM: They may if you tried improperly to prod them into
such a view. But it would be improper. The fact is that
there are 16 important pieces of legislation which we put
to the Senate on the basis they must be passed this year.
There are some taxation legislation which go to operative
dates from the beginning of next year which require to be
passed. There is also a piece of legislation which
require to be passed to fulfil a commitment which I gave
to the Chief Minister of the Northern Territory, Marshall
Peron, that very important agreement that we reached
which will make available land to Aboriginals on stations
in the Northern Territory. It was a solemn undertaking
between the Chief Minister and myself that their
legislation and ours would be passed this year. So there
are very many, significant, practical reasons which good
government requires having the House of Representatives
coming back.
LYNEHAM: And after that where are you going to go?
What's your holiday like?
PM: I'll basically be in Kirribilli. But I will be
moving from there to play some golf, be lying in the sun,
reading and thinking and playing with my grandchildren.
LYNEHAM: Thinking about the election date?
PM: Not much.
LYNEHAM: You're not going to decide over the holidays?
PM: Might.
LYNEHAM: Are you having second thoughts about going to
Gallipoli in April?
PM: No, I'm not having second thoughts. I believe that
the Australian people would want their Prime Minister, as
0 indeed Mrs Thatcher is going to attempt to go. I would
hope Mr Palmer would be thinking about going. I would
think they'd want their Prime Minister and may I say the
Leader of the Opposition too. I've extended an
invitation to the Leader of the Opposition. Because what
you've got to remember, this is not simply that it's the
anniversay but realistically, obviously this will be
the last significant anniversary occasion in which you
will still have the Gallipoli veterans able to
participate. They clearly won't be available for the
100th anniversary. As I say, I don't want to make
politics of it. It's something where as I say I hope the
Leader of the Opposition would be able to come too. He's
invited. LYNEHAM: You'd still go if hypothetically it were in a
campaign time?
PM: I would hope I'd be able to do so. Yes.
LYNEHAM: And you'd still go if Andrew wouldn't go as
well? PM: I expect Andrew would regard it as appropriate to
go. LYNEHAM: And how about May 5 or May 12? Either of them
sound like a good bet at this stage?
PM: What for, a bet or?
LYNEHAM: Yes, a bet on the election.
PM: A bet on the election is always a good thing. No,
not on the date. I mean wouldn't be betting on any date
if I were you. I discourage betting on these sorts of
things, really.
LYNEHAM: And finally, any Christmas message for Andrew?
PM: Yes, have a good break.
LYNEHAM: It's going to be on next year isn't it?
PM: Whatever happens it's going to be a fairly tough,
busy year. And I sincerely hope he has a good rest.
LYNEHAM: Thanks for your time and merry Christmas.
PM: Thanks very much Paul. And may I take this
opportunity of wishing all of your viewers a merry
Christmas too.
ends
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