PRIME MINISTER
E& OE PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW BOB MAUMILL RADIO 2KY
AUGUST 1989
MAUMILL: Another biggie round in Sydney, why? Why are are
we on the media trail?
P: Well, before we brought down the Budget Bob, we
decided that in the period for about a week after that we
w uld go round and sell it. Answer questions about it.
What's happened of course, is that the Budget has been so
well received right across the spectrum, that there doesn't
really need to be much of a selling job. But that's what we
committed ourselves to do, and that's what we are doing.
MAUMILL: It's a forgiving electorate. I mean Paul promised
t6 bring home the bacon. He was wrong on inflation, he was
wiong on interest rates, he was wrong on the deficit.
Obviously you have got a great record with employment,
creating job opportunities. But he did get it wrong in the
previous Budget. But I don't know, the media and the public
don't seem to and certainly the Opposition haven't laid
aIglove on you.
PM: No.... well. Two reasons for that. One, that when we
were preparing the Budget the previous year our estimates
were wrong. But so were everyone elses. I mean every
public and private economist in Australia made an under
es'timate of the strength of the Australian economy and so
the estimates that you-properly refer to, were out. We
think we have got it right this time. And the second point
to', make. You refer to the Opposition. Well it really is a
strange situation where you haven't got one Opposition, but
you've got about seven. They are just contradicting each
otper on every issue. When we brought the Budget down, one
said we had spent too much. The other bloke came up and
sa d that you haven't spent enough and then he talked about
this inflation adjustment.... for interest.
MAUMILL: Sat in that very chair and he seems to have
fotgotten about it. It's too hard is it?
PM Forgotten about it?
MAUMILL: sat in that very chair, told me it was an
exclusive and announced it on another radio station two
hours before. But he seems to have forgotten that one?
44412W
2.
PM: Well, I mean Paul Keating and Bob Hawke have blown it
out of the water. But however eloquent we were, we didn't
come within a bull's roar of Brian Loton of BHP. You know
what he said about it. He said if you want to see that in
action go to Brazil. It was a half baked, Ill conceived,
not thought through proposal which would have been
economically disasterous for Australia.
MAUMILLt But you are in Government and not Mr Peacock and
his colleagues and after having got it wrong in 87-88 now
we are into a new Budget year, with a new Budget announced.
} This' time will the Treasurer get the figures right?
PM. jBasically. You see what we've got to do is it is
not a question of Bob Hawke and Paul Keating sitting down
and saying well look, there are the figures, let's have a
Sguess to what they might be. We use the best resources that
Sare. pvailable to us from the Treasury... a very, very
competent bunch of people. But see what the economists in
the Treasury, like every economist in the banks in Australia
Sand ! the insurance companies, the academic insitutions,
everyone had the feeling, there, at the time when we were
S ggoeitntgi ngt o thbea t thBeu dgsettr enrgeatdhy of bdaecmka ndi n in8 8 the tAhuast trtahleirea nwasn't
economy. It wasn't going to be as strong as it was and we
all underestimated. Now we are intelligent people, we hope
to learn from experience and I think, the figuring and the
estimates, the assumptions that have gone into it this time
will be substantially right.
I
MAUMILL: What about the pilots. They are making life tough
" for you at the moment. And you are talking tough too. So
tough, in fact, you've scared some elements of the trade
union movement. I saw Georgie Campbell saying he wishes
you'd back off. If you crack down too hard on the pilots,
Sthat might set a precident for a conservative Government to
do i't to other sections of the trade union movement.
I PM: Well yes, Georgie has got to understand that when we
are dealing in these matters, we deal with the trade union
movement organisation as a whole and we have consulted, as
Sthe ' airlines have, with the ACTU and the position is that
there is an understanding by the trade union movement of the
W necessity for doing what we are. If I could just take this
opportunity Bob, I'm not trying to get stuck into pilots, as
pilots. I know the importance of their job and I respect
the importance of their job. But simply put, what is at
stake here is the future, the economic future of this
country and because if they were to get this thirty per cent
Sthe whole wage system would blow out. The economy would
collapse. You can't afford that sort of thing. And so I'm
being tough, and I will continue to be tough. Not against
Sthe ' pilots as blokes, or against their jobs. In the end
they are decent human beings as individuals. But
Scollectively, here they are wrong. They talk about their
responsibilty and so on. what about the blokes in the RAAF.
The pilots in the RAAF.
PM: 1( cont) These fellows in the civil airlines are really
using their muscle to get a thirty percent increase. Their
average salary is eighty thousand dollars. Eighty thousand
Sdollars for flying less than ten hours a week. Now the
Sblokes in the RAAF. The highly qualified pilots and that,
Sfifty thousand. Now that is a comparison. Now those blokes
are there and in the end, preparing to risk their life for
their country and flying, in a sense, in much more dangerous
conditions. MAUMILL: Let's talk about the blokes in the RAAF. It is
Ssimply not on, is it, to use them to fly commercial
aircraft. PM: They've talked about using them to fly commercial
aircraft and then you read the Australian Newspaper today.
Now what an exercise by the Australian.
MAUMILL: So you've never suggested it.
S PM14: What we have said is that RAAF aircraft can be used.
IMAUMILL: And what about the suggestion that you would use
Qanta's pilots. That's not on either because they said they
won't do it.
PM: Well we are not certain to what that position is to
Swhet er, on existing services, where they are flying between
, Australian capital cities, whether they might not be
available, certainly for emergency cases and that may be
possible. But to have this misrepresentation.
Misrepresentation that we were talking about using RAAF
Spilots to fly commercial aircraft. I mean, I wish people
would just particularly when there are newspapers like
that who are supposed to have some sense of
responsibility. It is not too difficult to get something
like ' that right.
MAUMILL: No its not. Shree have you got the Prime
O Minister's coffee. What about bringing it in, will you.
S Because we want to continue the questioning and I noticed he
is getting tense.
PM: ( inaudible)
' MAUMILL: Prime Minister, if this battle between pilots, the
companies and the Government continues is there any
possibility the Government will assist the airlines by
providing them with some funding if they should stand the
pilots down.
SPM: No. It wouldn't be a question of providing them with
funding. I mean I will tell you exactly as it is, as the
, matters raised. There has been a question raised by them as
to whether, if they are going to be in a situation where
they ' are going to cop enormous losses, whether if it went on
for some considerable period of time whether we would look
' at the question of waving some fees that they... charges.
We've said no. We are not going to be doing that.
* i
PM: time
Wi t 4.
( cont) I said that if this dispute goes on for some
well you can raise that and we will look at it.
iout committment, without prejudice, we will look at it.
MAUMILL: You haven't done a deal
SPM: No.
MAUMILL: with Sir Peter and the others to say look
you pull these blokes on and we will back you up with money.
PM: No there has been no such deal and I am putting it
absolutely..... they raised the question. They said " This
is going to cost us an enormous amount of money and the
question of paying the fees and the charges to Government.
Would you be prepared to look at that." And I said " Well,
this has got to be fought honestly. Now if it goes on for a
long time we can look at that." But there has been no
comittment.
MAUMILL: I understand that some international pilots have
been asked to contribute to a very substantial fighting fund
to support their domestic colleagues. Are you aware of
that. If that is true or not?
PM: No.
MAUMILL: We had calls this morning from someone purporting
to be an international pilot, who said that
PM: You know some of these calls you get. mean I don't
know whether you heard the program I've been on this
morning. You get a call and a bloke purports he says
" I'm a pilot of seventeen years and before that I was an
engineer." It turns out he was an apprentice, so he says,
for hine months, that makes him an engineer. I mean a lot
of these calls that you get, now people can say anything.
Now they may be right, they may be wrong, I don't know. But
it w6uldn't entirely surprise me Bob, if they ee trying to
get # ome financial support. But you know thatAT talking
about the rest of the world international pilots
intetesting to see just what their own President,
Fitzsimmons, said about their position compared to the rest
of the world.
MAUMILL: We will talk about it in a moment. Ian Craig is a
great admirer of yours and a great supporter of yours,
Skeeping in mind you interest in horse racing....
PM: Yes.
MAUMILL: ,. is thundering to me down the line that he has
, got a breathless public waiting to hear his selections in
ra'c ing information, which will only take a couple of
Iminutes.
SBreak I p
.1 r
N^ ii
Maumill: Jill's waiting on the line. Jill, have you got
something more edifying to say, or are you going to give me a
history lesson?
Callers No, I hope not. Mr Hawke...
PM: Yes Jill.
Caller: Mr Hawke, I want to talk to you about super. I'm
apolitical, however,, I must Bay I found Peacock's reply to the
Budget was shallow anid gave no actual indication of any real
policies. Having Bald that, can you please tell me, Mr Hawke,
regarding super, ( inaudible) estimates within ten years,
approximately 60 billion will be available for investment. if
the 20-30 rule was in place it could result in greater investment
within Australia to help reconstruct industry and promote
( inaudible)
PM Well, the 20/ 30 rui~ b used to be there before as a means of
directing some of the investment into government paper, but with
the very significant changes we've made in deregulation of the
financial sector, and most particularly in eliminating the
deficit you know when we came to office we were looking at a
nine billion dollar deficit vwe've transformed that into a nine
billion dollar surplus. So the demand from the Government point
of view to support the Government paper is obviously not there in
the way it was, so we've opened up the system and what we've
really tackled, Jill, is the situation where there hasn't been a
greaL pzxipeABILy Lo unve ini Auustralia and we are now, by the very
significant changes we're making in the superannuation system,
making it more attractive for people to set aside during their
working life income which they will dedicate to providing for
their retirement and so there won't be there'll be positive
incentives and there'll be absence of high marginal tax rates on
savings. And in this way, we'll generate the sort of flow of
funds into superannuation which are talked about and this will
mean that there will be available for investment and productive
enterprises in Australia much more money than there would have
otherwise been. People have tended. to actually consume; spend
their income, now there'll be much more incentive to save and
that can go into productive investment.
Maurnills It's been applauded, hasn't it? Even your most vocal
critics in the financial press have applauded the moves relating
to superannuation in the Budget. But one thing that does haunt
us a little bit is the possibility that government may step in
and be able to dictate the areas of investment for the super
funds. Is that likely?
PM: No, no it's not. It's very unreal to put that at us
because if there's one thing we have done, it's to deregulate. I
mean from day one, we have deregulated the financial sector.
We've opened it up. We've brought more competition in the
banks we've brought 16 foreign banks into here.. we ' ye released
the stupifying and stultifying influence of government
regulations so that the forces of competition can operate. So,
on our record we' re not going to be doing that sort of thing.
Maumill: Let's go to line one. Helen's joined us. Morning
Helen. Caller: Hello, Mr Hawke.
PM: G'day, Helen.
Caller: How are you?
PM: Great. How are you?
Callers I just want to say I don'It want to whinge about
nothing... I think you are the tops. Your wife, Mrs Hawke, is a
lady and I just want to say, Bob, I think you're terrific because
you're about the I'm an old lady... and of the alli the
people of all the Ministers there've been, you would be the
most friendliest man that ever walked the earth.
PM: Thanks Helen. Thanks very much, Helen. I the
things that I've tried, you know, to do right for the public life
is to stay as close as I can to the ordinary people. I did that
all my years in the trade union movement and I've known this
rough old fellow opposite me, young Maumill, I mean you can't get
closer to people than this rough old fellow.
Maumill: Yes...
PM: Thanks very much, Helen.
Maumill: Let's move on a bit. I'll1 f ind a tougher one than
that. No more big raps. Peter's on the line. Morning Peter.
Caller: Good morning.
PM: G'day Peter.
Caller: I would just like to ask Mr Hawke, like, you know, all
this stance that the Government's taking about not giving the
pilots their 30% pay rise that they want...
PM; Yeah.
Caller: I'd like to know why doesn't the Government take the
same sort of stance when Htigh Court judges and politicians want
a 30 and
PM: Well, okay Peter, we'll knock that one over very quickly for
you, mate. Let's take the High Court Judges first of all. The
legal situation in regard to remuneration of judges is that we
have a Remuneration Tribunal set up under the law and they
consider, in the same way as the Conciliation and Arbitration
Commission considers those on awards, their they have the
Remuneration Tribunal. They brought down a recommendation some
I time ago which recommended very, very much larger increases and
we refused to go ahead and do that. We've given, in fact, lesser
increases than what was originally recommended by, if you like,
the Judges the Arbitration Court for the Judges. Now,
politicians boy oh boy, Peter, you really have come in there.
Let's look at the facts. The facts are that under a law, there
is a Remuneration Tribunal to set salaries make recommendations
in regards to politicians. Time after time since I've been Prime
Minister, we've knocked back those recommendations as being too
big and seem likely to undermine the wage fixing system.
Criticism that I've got from the Members of Parliament is that I
won't accept the findings of their Arbitration Commission and
I've done that because I'm not going to undermine the system.
And, in fact, I had a stand-up, knock-down fight with my Caucus
on this earlier this year when the Tribunal brought in a
recommendation for increased salaries. Fair enough, there was a
case for it for the blokes getting the increase, but I said I
am not going to cop that because if we do, it will undermine the
wages system. So Peter, thank you very much for bolstering my
S argument in respect of the Judges and in respect of Members of
Parliament. I took them on this is the Caucus.... I took them
on, fought them, beat them for exactly the same reasons. I
wasn't going to have Members of Parliament undermining the wages
system and I am not going to have pilots on. $ 80,000 a year
knocking over the wages system. So thanks for your support
Peter.
Maumill: So no-one can knock over the wages system. if they do,
they pull you on.
PM: I had a situation here where for six and a half
years,... your listeners, Bob ordinary people out there wage
and salary earners supported by their wives and husband-. have
exercised very, very considerable wage restraint. There are this
day a million and a half more of our fellow Australians in work
,,* twice as fast a rate of job creation in the rest of the world.
Why? Because ordinary Australian men and women have exercised
wage restraint and their kids are in jobs now that wouldn't have
been in jobs because those people have exercised restraint. And
I am not, while I'm Prime Minister, going to stand aside and let
a privileged, already very highly paid group of people, destroy
the Australian economy. I wouldn't allow it in respect of
Members of Parliament, I wouldn't allow it in respect to any
people and I'm certainly not going to allow it in regard to
pilots. Maumill: I'm sure you'll be interested in this, it's correct
weight at Rosehill in the trifecta on race one it's $ 422.80 and
don't blame it on the pilots.
PM: How many units did you have, mate?
Maumill: I wasn't on it. That's the bad news. $ 422.80 on the
trifecta on race one, Rosehill correct weight. Let's go back
to the board. George is with us. Good morning George.
Caller: Morning. I don't expect an answer from the Prime
Minister straight on this one.
PM: Well, what are you wasting your time for, George?
Maumill: Yeah, goodbye George. You know I've got to keep him in
good mood George, ' cause I want him back and you can't go on
and attack him. Go away George. Next one Ron, are you with us
Ron? Caller: Yea.
Maumill: Go ahead Ron. Don't say anything cute or you'll drop
out. PM: No, he won't. But; I mean, it seems a bit funny to ring up
and say I don't expect an answer. I wasn't trying to be rude to
George but if you don't expect an answer
Maumill: Why ring in? Well, I was trying to be rude to George.
Maumill: Are you there, Ron?
Caller: Yeah, still here. Good morning, Mr Prime Minister.
PM: G'day, Ron.
Caller: Several calls ago, you were talking about
superannuation... you were explaining the good things from the
Budget the Budget that's just been brought out.
PM: t Yes.
Caller: Now, I'm a war veteran.
PM: t Yes.
Caller: On a pension.
PM: Yes.
Caller: And I have a small superannuation sum.
PM: Yes.
Caller: Which I haven't got yet, I'm not quite 65 yet.
PM: Yes.
Caller: Which I have to cancel when I'm 65, or, you know, finish
with the superannuation f und. Now, I cannot contribute because
I'm on a pension, which is fair enough, but from 1 July last
year, and this is what I've been told by the Taxation Department,
there's been a tax of 15% on the interest earnings of the amount
which is in superannuation fund that's only on the earnings
from the interest which is fair enough. From there over a
period of five years, ( inaudible) taxation will drop down at
the end of five years there will be no taxation because of the
being taxed on the interest ( inaudible) each year.
Maumill: Yeah, okay Ron. What's your point mate?
Caller: Well, the point is I'll be pulling it out in a lump sum
because it's only small amount.
Maumill: Yeah, good.
Caller: Now,' I get taxed on that again ( inaudible) taxed on the
lump sum. Now on top of... that again, that financial year, I'll be
taxed the amount of say, for instance, the figure of $ 10,000,
S gpelutst inmgy tpaexnesdi otnh ree bet imtaexs edb ecoanu saen I'ovred ignoatr ya samgaeldl pseunpseiroann. n uatiIo'nm
fund. I'm also being taxed from the first dollar for the
pension. This new Budget, is that going to rectify that position
at all?
PM: Yes. Obviously in regard to the pension situation, what
we've done by a decision already, is that about 80% of those on
pensions will not, in fact, be paying tax. We're moving into the
situation where those in receipt of pensions or part pensions,
will be taken out of the tax system altogether, Ron. That is
part of the overall plan of encouraging people to save for their
retirement. See, what's happened up until now is, you probably
know from your own experience, that where you got ( inaudible)
Maumill: MTahuem llw: o ol industry's in trouble China's not buying.
Have you spoken to John Kerin about this? The Australian Wool
Corporation is buying most of our clip and China seems to have
pulled out of the market. Are they likely to come back in and
have you got any idea why they've gone cold on us?
PM Oh, well, if you look at the wool marketing over the years,
they come in and go out and there is not any, you know, constant
reasons for a change in participation. I think
Maumill: Nothing to do with your criticisms of the Chinese
Government's actions in Tienamin Square?
PM: I don't think so. I think on the evidence we've got, the
Chinese understand that you know, this is a democracy. That
we're going to make our statement known as to what we think about
these sort of things. I believe that they'll make their economic
judgements on the basis of what they see as in their best
interests. The predictions that are made by the industry and by
the Bureau of, you know, Agricultural, you know, researchers in
that area that have got the responsibility for looking at these
things. They believe that the commodity prices generally,
including wool, that the outlook for this financial year is
pretty good.
Mauniill: Have you got any idea what the Saudis are on about in
knocking back our live sheep export?
PM: No, I must say I haven't. I mean, I've talked to our
people, about that. We are assured that we don't have these
diseases in our flocks. And there seems to be something more to
it, so we've sent a high level mission over there, as you know,
and I'll1 be very interested to see the report of what they have
to say because I can't really....
Mauniills John Kerin hasn't got any idea if it's just internal
politics? PM: Well, there was a suggestion that it is Internal politics,
but I can't say whether that's so or not and I don't want to
attempt, you know, without knowledge, to intrude into if that
is the case the domestic affairs of another country. But it
certainly would be very disappointing if that were the case and
our great farmers, and they are tremendous Australian farmers,
very competitive and done a great job for us historically and
presently and the productivity which they are constantly
increasing. It would be terrible if they were, in fact,
disadvantaged by Borne internal dispute. But the fact is that as
far as you know, on the scientific grounds, there is no basis for
what's been done.
Maumill: We've got a series you seem to have a series of
ongoing blues with the Greiner Government. I know there's
obviously an ideological gap there between the two but some would
say it is probably not as great as it used to be, but can't you
get on with Nick?
PM: well, I mean, when we meet..... let me just give you an
example. I mean we had a Premiers Conference. The first time he
came along, he got on and did his little pantomime for the press
and the public there and then we went into the actual meeting and
he was as quie as a lamb. Now on this frigate spending, we had
the meeting in my Cabinet room. He came down with Bob Carr, and
people from Newcastle, and put his case,. and I said " Well,, now
Nick, I recall that some months ago when I had to make a decision
about an airport whether we had a third runway or went to
. Badgery's Cre~ k a bloke called Nick Greiner hammered Hawke and
said you've got to make the economically responsible decisionis
that right? And he said, yeah. And I said I did it an
economically responsible decision for the third runway. Now, I
said, Nick, in respect of between the two bid6, if one is very
much more expensive than the other, should I take the
economically responsible decision? Nick Greiner said yes in
front of everyone there he said yes, sure. I said alright, now
let's be specific Nick. What sort of margin would you allow mehow
much more expensive could I allow if it were Newcastle, how
much more expensive could it be and still go to be economically
responsible? He said That was his answer In other
words if it was more than 2% It wouldn't be economically
responsible. And what was the difference? Ton percent
350 million. It wasn't 2% more expensive
Maumill: It didn't stop him going out....
PM: It didn't stop him going out. So that's the answer to your
question. How do you deal with someone like that? There in the
Cabinet room, he gives his answer, then goes out and tells
another story. It's a bit hard to deal with people like that.
Maumill: Does that mean you don't get on with him too well?
PM: Maunmills ( inaudible).
PM: Well, I mean, I've been civil, and decent and responsible
with him, but I mean when I get confronted with that sort of
double standards, I mean, I'll react.
Maumill: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us today. I've got
to go back to Ian Craig. Pass on my very best regards to Mr
Keating. I hope the silk pyjamas fit. It's nice to know he's
getting out of the sort of working class flannelette ones.
PM: Yes, yes sexy black ones.
Maumill: Sleeping in something more in keeping with his daytime
image. Good to talk to you again. We look forward to speaking
to you again soon.