A WU7
PRIME MINISTER
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW/ TALKBACK WITH DOUG AITON, RADIO
MARCH 1989
E 0 E PROOF ONLY
AITON: Prime minister, welcome to
PM: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be with you.
AITON: It's very good to see how healthy you're looking. I
mean we were talking earlier about how Malcolm Fraser aged
in office over the years. You've done the reverse really.
PM-Thanks. Well I must say Doug, I've never felt better
than I do now and I've got a lot things to thank for that.
More than anything I've got Hazel to thank for it. She
watches my diet and I eat very sensibly. As I've mentioned
I do have a capacity, I don't get a hell of a lot of sleep
always but when the head hits the pillow I go to sleep. But
I think more importantly than anything whether you're Prime
Minister or whatever you're doing it's what you put into
your body, really that determines what you're going to be
like.
AITON: Well you've changed two things of course over the
last few years. You gave up the booze, as we all know so
well, and I saw a photo of you about ten years ago and you
really have slimmed down as a result of no beer intake I
would say. would that be right?
PM: Yes although even when I was drinking a lot of beer I
was lucky I inherited from my dad, I'm a pretty lean sort of
frame, but as I say, even when I was drinking a lot of beer
it wasn't but I'm just very much leaner and stronger
now. AITON: It does show up when you look at photos of ten years
ago. And then you went on the, I think, the Pritikin Diet.
PM: Yes well Hazel I mean to say what's so marvellous
about the way she does she was convinced about it herself
and she was on it for some time and you know husbands tend
to be a bit sceptical about wives saying " well why
she didn't preach it at me but I watched and I thought
that's pretty sensible. So I just found it very, very much
an improvement. In the job I've got Doug, it's impossible
to stay on it 100 percent when you're travelling and so on
but when I'm in Canberra I'm basically on it completely and
I try to eat as sensibly as I can when I'm moving around.
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AITON: Actually that would be very difficult at all the
functions wouldn't it?
PM: Yes.
AITON: Do you ever miss the conviviality of booze?
PM: No I don't. In the early days I mean I gave up in
May of 1980 so it's getting on for 9 years now and in the
early days it's true to say yes you missed it. But people
accept I mean there's no question they accept that I'm a
non-drinker and so they relax with me and the only thing
about it is get out of it early, you don't finish up so
silly in the morning, so ill-equipped to take the day.
AITON: Six years now, last Sunday I think was the sixth
anniversary of your coming into office as Prime minister.
You don't feel tired?
PM: No I don't. I mean it's silly to say that there aren't
days when you're not tired. Of course there are. But in
terms of the excitement about the job and the enthusiasm,
if anything it's stronger than it was then.
AITON: Well apart from going into current issues such as
economic setbacks here, there and everywhere and things that
happen from day to day, are you happy with the progress the
Hawke administration has made in 6 years?
PM: Yes I am. I wouldn't be honest if I said that we've
done everything perfectly. we haven't. Obviously there are
some things we could've done better and that's true of any
human being or any collection of human beings. But I think
Doug, the thing that I am happiest about is this. That I
look back at the Australia that we inherited in Government
in ' 83 and I think all your listeners who remember back then
will remember what a divided, divisive sort of country it
was then when you had Australians set against Australian and
the trade unions against employers, city and against
country. It was just confrontationalism. Now what I asked
of the Australian people was isn't there a better way?
Can't we sort of work together better? Not that we have to
agree with everyone, with each other on everything. But
let's recognise that there's so much talent in the business
community, so much talent in the trade unions, so much
talent in representative organisations, representing farmers
and women and so on, can't we just try and tap into one
another's experience and expertise and work better together.
Looking back now over the 6 years that's what thrills me
most about the 6 years. we do work together better now.
AITON: Yes you had that summit when you first came into
office, that everyone and most of all the media were so
sceptical about?
PM1: Yes they were.
AITON: And understandably, I mean I remember thinking
myself that what a grandstanding piece of nothing that's
going to be. But it actually worked.
PM: Of course it worked. It worked because Australians are
essentially decent people. I mean we were a paradoxical
people. We liked in a sense knocking one another in a
sense we almost liked knocking success in some senses in
whatever field, but in the end basically Australians are
fair-goers. They believe in the concept of a fair go and I
think they understand and they understood then that we
were in a mess in ' 83. We had the worst recession we'd had
in and I'm not going to be parading to you or to your
S listeners Doug, a whole series of statistics. The facts
were however that in ' 83 we had the worst recession we'd
ever had. You know the highest level of unemployment, the
highest level of inflation together ever. And it wasn't
good enough. We were just much better than that and, if I
had to be asked what's my feeling now, it's one of gratitude
to the Australian people that and this is not just words
I mean a real gratitude that they did respond to my
suggestion that if we did work together the better we could
do things. There are a whole lot of statistics but just two
that seem to me to prove what I'm saying. The job creation
Doug, the last statistics came out just yesterday and we've
now to it
AITON: Buried in the paper too I noticed.
PM: Yes, buried in the paper because it wasn't bad news.
AITON: That's right.
0 PM: We've now created over one milion three hundred
thousand new jobs. Just the measure of that is that that's
four times faster a rate of job creation than under our
predecessors, under Howard and Fraser. It's more than twice
as fast as the rest of the world. Now that couldn't have
happened just because we had good policies, we have. But it
couldn't have happened without the cooperation of the people
in business and in the trade unions. Now we look at the
industrial disputes 59% less now than in the previous
period. So those are the sorts of indications of what I'm
talking about how good the Australian people have been.
AITON: Well what have you been you said there have been
some minor disappointments, I think you said. Can you name
any? PM: Yes. I guess that one area that disappoints me is that
we weren't successful perhaps we could've handled it
better I don't know but we weren't successful in getting
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( PM cont): Constitutional change. I think it's just a
tragedy that we couldn't have got those things through
because they were all manifestly in the interests of the
Australian people. That's a disappointment.
AITON: But that wasn't really anything to do with your own
administration was it?
PM: No, athough you've got to ask youself Doug, looking
back could you have done it better.
AITON: Cou ld you have sold it better?
PM: Could you have handled it better? I suppose we didn't
do well in the result. Perhaps we could've handled it
S better. AITON: I think it's fair enough for me to say that you're a
bloke who likes to be liked.
PM: Sure I do, yes. But I qualify that? I mean obviously
I like to be liked. I mean I've got it might be silly
language but I've just got a love relationship with the
Australian people, I lust am besotted with this country, I
just love it, the Australians in it. I just like it when we
respond to one another, which I think we do. But the
qualification I wanted to make is that I hope that if you
look back over the 6 years, that there's plenty of evidence
that if I think that what's required is something that will
be unpopular, I'm still prepared to do it.
AITON: Yes, maybe, I'm sure that's so. But I've noticed
over the years even before you were Prime Minister that you
seem to me to want to be liked to the extent that you get
upset when people don't understand what a good bloke you are
and what good intentions you have when people criticise you.
PM: what upsets me is not that people get annoyed about
something, what upsets me is that a part of the Australian
media, and I'm not a media knocker, but there is a tendency
in the Australian media to be negative and that involves
often either deliberate or careless misrepresentation and
you know that's what upsets me. Obviously just about any
decision that a Prime Minister or a Government makes, there
will be another alternative point of view and I never, never
get upset about argument and disputation. It's deliberate
or near deliberate misrepresentation of what you're about
and of your motives which upsets me.
AITON: I know something else that really gets you angry
too. And that is when journalists question you about things
that you have carefully worked out, maybe complicated
economic matters to do with your Government or your
Treasurer or what have you, and journalists question you in
a confrontational manner and they haven't done their
homework.
PM: -Well that's right. I mean that is annoying because
after all journalists are in a sense opinion formers, they
are people who provide a basis of judgement for the
Australian people. It just seems to me there is an enormous
obligation upon those people to do their homework and so
often they don't. But let me make it clear. I mean I'm not
making a blanket condemnation but there are so many very,
very good people in the media, very many.
AITON: Yes and there are some very bad ones too.
PM: Yes.
AITON: Journalism can be very sloppy and it can be very
good. I'd like your opinion as to whether the performance
of the media in 1989 is better or worse than it was say
during your ACTU days?
PM: It's a very hard comparison to make Doug, because in
those days one had a close and more direct relationship with
a smaller band of people and therefore the opportunity for
them and in a sense for you to share knowledge so that they
really understood things, was greater and you can't do that
in this broader sphere. But generally speaking is it better
now than before? I don't know. There are some very, very
good people and there are some bad ones. But this year
we've had the most amazing example of irresponsible, sloppy,
almost criminally neglectful journalism in that story about
Hawke talking down the dollar. They ran that story. This
is the Fairfax group. Ran the story that Hawke talks down
the dollar says it ought to be 78 cents. I didn't even
the day before I hadn't addressed the issue. But on the
basis of them running that story, you know, the dollar went
down. And it was wrong and they didn't have the decency
and the honesty the next day to come out and say " we got it
wrong". I think obviously we can all make mistakes, but if
newspapers in an organisation like that, you know, one at
the centre of financial journalism, they make that blue,
well why don't they just say so?
AITON: There's not much to be lost?
PM: I think people
AITON: inaudible
PM: When I make mistakes, and I make them, I just think not
only is it right to say that you've got it wrong, and if
you just look at it, in terms of self interest, people are
going to respect you more if you concede it.
AITON: The media is more opinionated than it used to be,
even in straight reporting. Say in the Age or the Sydney
Morning Herald will be full of comment from those people who
the organisations concerned allow to do that.
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PM: Yes, there is an enormous amount of editorialising in
journalism and in one sense, you know, it's very difficult
to say that journalists shouldn't express an opinion in a
sense. Why shouldn't they? But it just seems to me Doug
that there's a corresponding responsibility. If you are in
the media and you're going to offer an opinion, a judgement,
then the more you're prepared to do that the greater is the
obligation to be fully informed. I think there's a bit of
an imbalance at times with some journalists, but I want to
get back to the point, I'm not into media knocking. By and
large in this country we've got a media which tries to do
its job. I think too often as you have said, they try to
make themselves the centre of the story particularly in
television to say ' look this is what I think' and bang,
bang, bang and have a confrontation. But generally speaking
we've got a media and thank God it's free.
AITON: You said before that you hope that you've brought
Australia together to an extent and that there are good
people in business which used to be the traditional enemy of
Labor of course. Along with that, with what you've tried to
achieve there, have come the criticisms that you've taken
the Labor Party across to the Right. How do you feel about
that criticism?
PM: Well, it's not correct. I mean, even before I went
into Parliament I've said that I've always regarded the
exercise of political analysis as rather sterile when it
thinks it's done something by simply putting a tag on it
saying ' that's Right, that's Left'. It's just so stupid
because an intelligent person is going to be on some issues
classified as Left, on some issues classified as Right. I
mean, there is no intellectually respectable position which
flows from being just Right or just Left or just Centre
that's in my judgement anyway. Now, what I've tried to do
is to say, what are the sorts of things that we've got to do
as a community which are capable of getting basic community
support. It's not absolute consensus, you know, a good
working sort of position of consensus. That often means
that you've got to do some things which are not exactly in
some ideal world what you might say is right, but good
Government is about leadership but not being that far away
from your community that you're not going to be able to make
things work. So people who conduct their analysis in terms
of the ivory tower, the academic study or the boardroom or
something like that and say ' this is what's the correct
thing to do' OK it might be a nice academic exercise but
that's not what Government's about.
AITON: Have you changed your mind about anything
significant during the time that you've been Prime Minister?
PM: Yes, I guess I have. Let me think what those things
are.
AITON: Possibly the sort of question you need to have in
advance? PM: Oh no. As you know, I never like questions in advance.
AITON: Yes I do know that.
PM: If I've changed my mind, it's in terms of becoming just
much more convinced about some things and I've become even
more passionate about some things. The thing that I've
become even more convinced of and more passionate about in
terms of the future of this country, Doug, is the
fundamental importance that all Australians understand that
our future, particularly the future of our kids, depends
upon us understanding that we are part of this region. The
dynamic growth region of the world is going to be in Asia,
particularly North Asia. I've always had the view that we
should have a close relationship but the more I've been in
Government, the more I've understood what's happening in the
world, the more worried I get about some elements in
Australia which try to fan some sort of anti-Asian feeling
because the certainty is that our kids out there now are
going to be disadvantaged if we don't do everything we can
to become part of the dynanism of this region. You can't
have it both ways, you can't say ' look we want to sell all
our stuff to you, but we think you're second rate human
beings'. It doesn't work. I mean it's morally wrong but
it's also intrinsically insane.
AITON: What do you think of Malcolm Fraser in 1989?
PM: Well I think this about Malcolm Fraser. That's why in
fact I'm actively trying to get him the job of Secretary
General of the Commonwealth of Nations. I think that
Malcolm Fraser has shown, while he was in office, I never
questioned him on this and certainly since he's been out of
office, a commitment to the concept of racial equality and
has worked diligently and very effectively to advance that
cause. I think he is worthy of being Secretary General to
the Commonwealth because I think, more than anyone that I
can think of, he would advance the cause of racial
integration in that tragic area of Southern Africa. I would
still have disagreements of course with him in areas of
domestic policy, quite fundamental ones. I still think ' he
can be, in some senses, a prickly sort of fellow, but I
believe he's the best man for that job. I'm working hard to
try and get him the job.
AITON: Did you always think about him the way you do now?
PM: I always respected and it wasn't just a privately
held view I've publicly said that he has an impeccable
record on the question of race and colour. Absolutely
impeccable. I disagreed fundamentally with the way he was
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( PM cont): trying to govern Australia internally. I think
there was far too much confrontationism there and a lack of
trust in the Australian people.
AITON: We'll go to listeners' calls in a moment. The
switchboard's filling up on 678 9044. What about Gough
Whitlam? Have you got any thoughts about him?
PM: Yes, Gough and I have always had a good relationship.
That hasn't meant that we haven't had our arguments and
disagreements. But Gough did some great things both for the
Labor Party and for this country. The thing he did for the
Labor Party was modernise its platform, get it up towards
current realities and future challenges and its organisation
improved enormously. Of course, in the area of Government,
the most important thing he did, the single most important
thing he did, was with China the establishment of a
relationship with China.
AITON: Who should the Liberals put up as leader if they're
going to knock you off?
PM: Well, I hope this doesn't sound complacent, but there's
no-one there that really has the qualities of leadership.
The important thing is they know that themselves. They are
totally dissatisfied with the incumbent and he would have
been out by now, but there's no-one they've got to turn to.
AITON: Not Fred Chaney? I know he's in the Senate of
course. PM: No I think Fred's passed his zenith. I've said in
conversations with him, I've meant it sincerly, I think
they've been criminally neglectful over the years in their
preselection methods. I mean they've put very ordinary
calibre people in their safe seats. I mean they should have
got better people in and I wish they had.
AITON: Do you?
PM: Honestly I do because I think Governments are better
with better Oppositions. I honestly believe that.
AITON: And what do you want to be remembered for? I won't
ask you how long you are going to stay in office because I
know you've been evading the question for a long time, but
as Prime Minister yourself I mean, but what would you like
to be remembered for?
PM: I'm going back to what I said before. If I can be
remembered for being a bloke who had a capacity to get on
the wavelength of ordinary Australians and persuade them
that there was a better way of conducting their affairs than
one of antagonism and confrontationalism and of trying to
work together more, then that's the main thing I'd like to
be remembered for.
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AITON: Mr Hawke, I've heard, just today there's been some,
within the ALP, there's been some factional rumblings in
Canberra, that's the only way I can put it and I can't put
my finger on it, I don't know what's going on. Is this any
indication that we might be gearing up for an election this
year? PM: No, that's to do with the State Parliament
preselection in New South Wales. There was some shenanigans
going on which didn't reflect much credit on people involved
and it was before the National Executive this morning which
I was present for an hour or so before I came down to
Melbourne. I think that will be sorted out.
S AITON: Do you want to say anything about the forthcoming
election? PM: No, the election is a long way away.
AITON: This year?
PM: In no sense necessarily. As I've said, it's the latter
part of this year at the earliest, you know, it could be
well into next year.
0
AITON: Ok, let's go to some calls. Roger, good afternoon.
CALLER: Good afternoon. Mr Hawke, having just left the
Australian defence forces I would like to know from you,
given that we've got a pretty high turnover rate in the
defence forces about 30% over the last three years when
are you going to face up to the fact that the defence
force's pay is pretty low and do something about upgrading
it? PM: Let me say this, that what we did was to establish an
independent tribunal to consider the levels of remuneration
and that's something -that had been asked for by the defence
force. We've done it and we abide by the tribunal. One of
the problems~ of course that we've got, and let me make it
quite clear I'm not trying to avoid the fact that there are
high separation rates which create some problems, but I can
assure you that I keep in touch not only with the minister
for Defence but with Defence chiefs. They assure us,
certainly with one area of exception that I'll come to in a
moment, that the issue is manageable. But one of the
problems we've got just flows from what I was saying to Doug
before. We have lifted the level of economic activity and
created so many jobs in this country that the people of
quality and we've got as you know, because you've been in
it we've got so many people of quality in our armed
forces that they are able to get very very much more
attractive positions often outside the forces than in it.
Of course, as I think you would know, the area where our
greatest problem has been, and it's not unique to Australia,
is with our pilots.
CALLER: But the pilots aren't everything Mr Hawke.
PM: No, I accept that and I would've thought you would've
understood from what I'm saying that I wasn't saying it's
just pilots. People who are in the armed forces get well
trained within the armed forces and there are so many areas
where the training, whether it be in technical terms or
professional terms, the quality of training provided in the
Australian armed forces is very very high by world
standards. In the event people in the armed forces get very
well qualified and in an expanding economy which is growing
twice as fast in terms of employment as the rest of the
world there are so many attractive alternatives. Now you
can't pitch the rates of pay and the conditions in the armed
forces at the level of the competition outside. Just take
the area of pilots. If we paid pilots what they're being
offered by Qantas and these other shows you would just blow
the defence budget out of the water. we wouldn't be able to
do what we are doing and having a massive re-equipment of
our defence forces.
CALLER: I agree Mr Hawke but the majority of the people i n
the defence forces aren't pilots, they're all corporals and
sergeants and a corporal's base rate of pay is $ 18,054. Now
that by your own figures is $ 7000 below the average income.
PM: I've got to go back to what I said before, that we
established an independent tribunal at which you're able to
go in and argue your case and we accept the findings of that
independent tribunal. If you say that the findings of the
tribunal are wrong well it's like saying that we don't
accept the umpire's decision.
AITON: We'll have to move on I think. John, hi.
CALLER: Mr Hawke, in the Hawke Government at the moment, in
the Parliament, there are quite a number of your ministry
and members of Parliament who hold dual nationality, which
is firstly against the Constitutional right, first of all
that is an illegal thing for them to have that under the
Constitution.. Secondly, and more importantly, you keep
preaching the fact of citizenship being important. I
would've thought that a Prime Minsiter of our country would
regard it not only as illegal but as immoral for some of
them to have these dual nationalities, particularly one who
is very prominent who has accepted an Israeli citizenship as
well. But apart from that, when are you going to speak out
PM: Just so that we're not being eliptical, who is this
prominent one who has accepted Israeli nationality?
CALLER: Well, one of them is the Prime Minister of
Au st ral1i a.
PM: Look John, just let me get it straight. I love
talkback radio but I was saying to Doug that one of the
things and I hope you won't be too offended you get
ratbags on it and you come straight into that category.
You're wrong, I haven't got Israeli citizenship, so don't
take up the valuable time of Doug, myself and the listeners
by coming on and telling lies.
AITON: We'll go on to the next questioner. Hello Ian.
CALLER: G'day Doug and g'day Mr Hawke.
œ. FLL~ Idon't think either of us are ratbags Mr Hawke. I'd
like firstly to congratulate you on the first six years. I
think that you and the Labor Party have got nine to go to
make something substantial of the country. my work is in,
and the concern that I have which is some degree of a
qualification I guess, is in the fields of employment, and
particularly people in poverty or in disadvantage. I'd like
to put to you a proposal that we as a nation need to take on
a full employment objective. I know employment is
decreasing and that substantial jobs have been created, but
as an objective, the concept of full employment, something
that we seem to have in the back of our minds as an ideal,
but it's on the backburner. Just a suggestion with regard
to the J curve and import substitution, those sorts of
C~ Ue( cont): issues, it seems to me that there's
possibilities for national incentives towards employment
generation programs and opportunities in those areas that we
seem to be missing out on but we've got a terrific
opportunity to aim for over the next ten years.
PM: Let me say this to you that we haven't put the concept
of full employment on the backburner. Could I just point
this out to you, we've got the unemployment rate down now to
6.7% from the double digit figure that we inherited. You
would've heard I think Ian what I said earlier that we have
created jobs now four times faster than under the previous
people and importantly in the current situation we're
creating jobs in our period of six yeazs more than twice as
fast as the OECD average. So
CALLER: That's the important figure isn't it? The OECD
one's important isn't it? The 1.3 million figure does take
into account things like CEP programs that were
non-repetitive
PM: This is now jobs that have been created and may I say
that 85% of those jobs have been created in the private
sector. That doesn't mean we sit back and say well done
good and faithful servant, you haven't got anything more to
do. But I just ask you to understand this statistic.
That's also been achieved where we now have the highest
participation rate for more than 20 years. If we had the
same participation rate, that is people who could
potentially be in the workforce actually saying we want to
work, if we had the same participation rate as when we came
into office the unemployment rate would be just about 3%,
just over In other words that's so close to full
employment that it doesn't matter, we are going to do more
in the areas of trying to get our companies in this country
to undertake more research and development work so that
they'll open up more opportunities. There's still more to
be done Ian but I think we're very very much closer towards
the concept than this country has been for very many years.
0 AITON: We'll move on. Hello John.
CALLER: I'd like to speak to Robert Hawke please.
PM: Yes John.
CALLER: Robert. I live down in your old down in
Sandringham way mate. I've followed your career with great
interest, I've been a trade unionist since I was
PM: Which union are you in mate?
CALLER: The Eletrical Trade Union.
PM: ETU, yes.
CALLER: I've followed your career with great interest and
I've been a Labor voter ever since I started to vote. I was
in the army for five years and I have a family of two
daughters and a wife who have been staunch Labor voters,
having been educated by myself.
PM: What's the question John?
CALLER: The question is what's the strength of the
tertiary fees? I'm so boiled up about these tertiary fees.
I have a daughter going to Melbourne University and she's
going to be saddled with a bloody great debt when she
finishes. I'm a pensioner and God knows how she's going to
pay for it..
PM: Well the answer to that John is quite straight forward.
They are not tertiary fees, they are a requirement that not
when she graduates, not while she's doing her degree, but at
a point when she reaches a reasonably high level of earnings
that there will be a repayment of what constitutes about a
fifth of the cost of the education. See, what we had was a
position where still in this country there is a if you
like in the ratio of people who go to the university against
the population proper. In other words there are many many
more people who go to university from the very high income
sections of the community out of proportion to what they
represent in the community as a whole. which means that
generally speaking it's the ordinary lower to middle income
people who've been paying proportionately much more for the
education of the well-off. That simply just isn't fair. So
what we're saying is not that we're going to impose burdens
upon lower income people or lower income kids, we've done
more to increase the Austudy payments and so on than has
ever been done before. We're saying you don't have to pay
while you're there, you don't have to pay when you graduate,
but when you have reached a relatively high level of
earnings afterwards then you will pay a very small
proportion of that so that you'll pay then when you can
afford it approximately a fifth of the cost of the
education. The point is John, there is no such thing as
free education. It's a myth, the phrase is a nonsense.
CALLER: I understand that.
PM: And John, it's a question of who is going to pay for
the education.
CALLER: Could I say this. I think you blokes have jumped on
the wrong tram. I think what you should have done is hit
the people that drop out of university. You've got people
who go to university who go for one year just for fun and
they get all that for free, they drop out. Now they're the
people you should be whacking. You should say ok, you pay
for I've been in that category of supporting university
students all my life because I've paid tax and I've got one
daughter who goes to university. I've been working since I
was 14 and I'm 68 years old.
A
PM: But John, you know what the situation is if you look at
Australia as a whole. What was happening was that the Johns
of this world like yourself and others, the majority of whom
didn't have kids going to university, were through paying
your tax, you were paying to put the kids and the wives of
millionaires through university.
CALLER: I know that.
PM: And that's crazy.
CALLER: I know that.
AITON: But your daughter will be paying later on, it won't
be hitting you at all.
CALLER: She's terribly concerned.
PM: But John, she's not paying until such time as she is
earning a level of income whereby she will be able to pay,
not for the whole of her education, but for about a fifth of
it, but not until she reaches a level of income where she
can afford to do it.
AITON: We'll have to move on. I must say, I don't know if
you sold that one wrongly or the publicity was bad or
something, but so many people don't seem to understand that
one. You only pay later on at such time as you are earning
a decent salary.
PM: That's right. Exactly right.
AITON: But people don't seem to absolutely grasp that
point. PM: Let me say this, that from the feedback I'm getting and
I've talked to a lot of students myself, they do. most of
them are understanding. But it is true that some people
don't want to understand it.
AITON: Hello Bill.
CALLER: Hell Doug. I have a question here for Bob.
PM: Yes Bill.
CALLER: Let's lead into it first. Look, I'm a veteran
pensioner Bob and I took strong exception when I was means
tested I might say, but never mind. In early 1940s when I
was serving overseas I think the Labor Government here, sort
of following on from New Zealand I believe, brought in the
Social Security Act which guaranteed every citizen a
sufficient and indexed retirement pension plus full medical
care and all that sort of thing. For that we had to pay in
one and six in the pound in those days. That worked out at
17.5% of total income and went on for the whole of my
years of working life. I paid in 17.5% of my total income,
PM ( cont): the same as everybody is today, and now I find
that because of this Medicare scheme I have to join private
schemes if I really don't want to join long queues, and have
to pay for it. I'm means tested when I believe that every
citizen who paid in, and that is every working citizen, was
entitled to a pension without means testing. Damn it all,
we paid in 17.5%, now what's gone wrong?
PM: Nothing's gone wrong. Let's make it quite clear that
this is one issue on which there is unanimity between the
opposition and Government. That is that you can't just be
paying benefits to everyone in the community irrespective of
income and assets. I simply want to say to you that you
have a situation in this community where, particularly with
increased ageing of the community Bill, that we've got to
make sure that the limited resources of the community go to
those who relatively need it Most. This is one point for
instance where John Elliott and I are absolutely at one. He
said he regards it as an obscenity, this is John that
his parents should be receiving benefits from because
they simply don't need it.
AITON: John Elliott or John
PM: John Elliott. I'm making the point that in a
community, if you don't want high taxes, if you want taxes
coming down and we of course have brought them down
significantly and very soon we'll bring them down further,
you've got to then say does it make sense to pay pensions to
millionaires? The answer is it doesn't.
CALLER: Haven't they paid in their 17.5% the same as I
have? In this way aren't they entitled to the same service
as I'm entitled to?
PM: No, this is where I differ with you, and as I say, John
Elliott agrees with me and so does the Liberal Party.
CALLER: They may agree but they've paid in just the same
PM: And they've had a greater capacity. Do you want your
taxes to be higher or lower? If you want your taxes to come
down then we can't be paying out your taxes to people who
don't need the assistance of the community.
AITON: How would you feel about John Elliott being your
opponent in the House? election?
PM: I'd be quite happy to have John as my partner. It'd be
a pretty lively contest I think.
AITON: It would, but do you think he might get closer to
knocking you off than anyone else we've seen in the Liberal
Party? PM: I doubt it but I'd like to try it.
AITON: Hello, you're calling from Tasmania?
CALLER: Hello Mr Hawke.
PM: -How are you?
CALLER: Fine thanks.
PM: We've got to think about Tasmania next week with that
mill. CALLER: That's what I wanted to speak to you about. I live
on the north west coast and I would really like to appeal to
you on behalf of the majority of the Tasmanian people to
take the objective, logical, long term view of this mill and
prevent it going ahead and polluting the Bass Strait, the
fisheries, the farmlands, affecting our children
detrimentally. I've got a child who goes to school very
close to Wesley Vale. The children themselves are
concerned, in fact my nine year old daughter wanted to ring
you, she wanted to speak to you but they said there wouldn't
be time for children to ask questions
PM: She could've spoken.
CALLER: But I'm really appealing on behalf of her and all
of her friends.
PM: Could I just say a couple of things just quickly about
it. I think you'd agree that on our record in six years
we've got a pretty good environmental record, and
particularly in the area of Tasmania.
CALLER: That's right, that's why I appeal to you.
PM: I think you can take it for granted that we will be
looking at this extremely closely. Let me put it to you,
there are two sets of arguments. one is that with
Australia's external account problems that we need to
substitute imports and provide our own stuff and also
export. CALLER: I realise that. It's very important but surely,
surely PM: Let me finish. There's that argument but I recognise
there is the environmental argument that you're putting. I
have instructed my Ministers that they are to come to
Cabinet with as full a submission as they can, including
from the CSIRO and any relevant sources all the information
that is relevant to those concerns that you've got the
pollutant effect in the atmosphere and the ocean. So you
can be sure that all those issues will be before us and if
the evidence is that that sort of environmental impact is of
unacceptable levels then we will not accept it on its
present proposals. The venturers would have to come up with
something better if on what they're proposing now it's
environmentally unacceptable. So there's no easy ride on
this one.
AITON: Sorry, I cut you off without meaning to, I thought
we were going to the next questioner. How do you like it
when the media refers to you as the silver bodgie?
PM: I don't mind. At least I've got my hair.
AITON: I think you're going to keep it forever too. Hello
Gwen. CALLER: Hello.
PM: Hi Gwen.
CALLER: Hello Mr Hawke. Now we're 70 year old pensioners
with our own homes, we've always been in the low income
bracket but we own our own home. We manage quite well on
the pension thank you very much and we've never been better
off in our lives. But I resent some of these greypower
leaders who live on Sydney harbour with Swiss bank accounts
or a few other rollover schemes and they whinge all the
ruddy time. God, they talk about the Pommy whingers, I
think Australians are getting just as bad. Who pays for the
pension? We know very well that the people who are paying
for us are young people with mortgages, with kids to educate
and I really think that we're better off than they are.
PM: Well Gwen, I must say how grateful I am to hear what
you've got to say. There are amongst some people who are
now recently trying to set themselves up as spokespersons
for the elderly some reasonably unsavoury characters as you
would've seen. I must say that just this week I've had
meetings with the representatives of the Pensioners
Federation and they are very concerned. They have been
representing your interests now for very very many years,
they are decent people who've got a long continuous history
of concern and involvement in the issues concerning the old.
They are very worried about these Johnny-come-latelys
CALLER: That's right, and they give us a bad reputation.
We're not whingers and we are happy with the pension.
PM: I'm glad you are but we still think that there's some
more things that can be done and we're in the process of
consultations with your legitimate representatives and I can
assure you
CALLER: I hope you take notice of them and not these bloody
money hungry so and sos.
PM: Thanks Gwen.
CALLER: Anyway, I wouldn't have your job for double your
salary. I think you're doing a damn good job.
PM: Thanks Gwen.
AITON: I wouldn't either as a matter of fact. You're
turning 60 this year too. How do you feel about that Prime
Minister? PM: I think it's inevitable and I must say I feel, as I
said before, I feel fitter and happier than I think I ever
have.
AITON: You've never been very age conscious really have
you? PM: No, never. People who worry about their age, it seems
very silly to me. There are certain things in life that you
can do nothing about and I don't know if this sounds too
philosophical but I've always thought it's an enormously
stupid waste of one's time to worry about things about which
you can do nothing. You should conserve your energies and
worry about those things about which you can do
something.
AITON: I think I fall into the stupid category. Hello
Megan. CALLER: Hello. Hi Mr Hawke. I'd like to it's a beef
really. I really wanted to say that the way that you speak
to each other as normal human beings I find quite offensive.
manner in which Parliamentarians address each other,
sometimes in Parliament and on radio. It may be games of
power between you but as a member of the public trying to
understand the issues, I often have to turn off the radio
rather than to listen to the condescending manner in which
you converse with each other. Do you think this behaviour
can be addressed?
PM: Megan I think it's a fair point you make. Let me say
in fairness, not just to myself, that doesn't matter so
much, but to the generality of people in politics, and I'm
talking about both sides, not only mine. I think you're a
little bit too sweeping in your condemnation but I do accept
that at times our behaviour in the Parliament leaves a lot
to be desired. I don't retract from that and I as well as
others have been guilty of behaviour which is less than
perfect. So I accept that, I don't argue it. So that's a
sincere statement I'm making and if you heard in the earlier
part of the program, I think one of the problems it
doesn't excuse some of the things we do and say at times
but I think one of the problems is the sort of
confrontationalist atmosphere that i' s created by the media
to some extent and we respond to it. We ought to do better
and I hope we will.
CALLER: It's just communication really.
PM: Sure, sure.
AITON: I think we'll have time for only one more call. By
the way, do you ever find any time as Prime Minister to be a
grandfather? PM.: Now you'll really get me going. I'm just about to get
my sixth grandchild it might be an Easter baby. This is
the great joy of my life. I'm lucky in having two of my
grandsons who live very close to me in Canberra and I see
them very very regularly and they are beautiful kids. my
daughter in Sydney has got my one granddaughter who is the
most beautiful little girl in Australia as I suppose all
grandparents say. She's got me wrapped round her little
finger and she's about to get a baby brother or baby sister.
They are really just the joy of my life.
AITON: Noel, you're the lucky last.
CALLER: Thanks Doug. Good afternoon Prime Minister. It's
good to have access to you through Doug's program.
PM: Thank you.
CALLER: My concern is about naturalisation and I would love
to see the two million or so non-Australian residents in
Australia become naturalised.
PM: It's only one million Noel.
CALLER: One million, ok, sorry about that. I'd love to
see them all become Australian citi-. ens because I'm a loyal
Australian myself. I'm just concerned Prime minister about
the way you're going about it. squirm when I see these
adds that say all you have to do is swear. Now apart from
your own personal record in that field I really feel that
really trivialise the whole issue. almost a bargain
sort of approach. I'm concerned Prime minister, what about
belief in Australia, what about pride in Australia?
PM: Those are the things I've tried to stress. I take your
point Noel that you might think that that's a cheap way.
All I can say is that those sort of making the decisions in
the communication areas seem to think it was a way of
striking a chord. I take your point that there might be
some who are offended by it but certainly please accept my
word it wasn't in any sense intended to be offensive. But I
think if you read Noel all the things that I've said,
particularly during the Bicentennial year, I said the one
thing that makes an Australian is not your colour, your
creed, your country of origin. There is one thing and one
thing alone, and that is commitment to Australia. I think
you and I are at one on that and I think you may be
interested to know that as a result of the campaign we're
undertaking there's been a massive increase in the
applications for citizenship and I hope that we will make a
significant inroad to this million.
CALLER: I'm a counsellor, I attend many nationalisation
ceremonies, but I really feel that a lot of people that I
have spoken to are really off by this whole approach of
all you have to do is swear, whole triviality of the
issue. Prime Minister, I would like to ask if you would ask
your people to look at that and see what the effect is and
see whether perhaps
PM: Ok, we'll have a look at that Noel. Thank you.
AITON: Thanks Noel. And I think that's about as far as we
can go. Thank you very much indeed Prime Minister for
coming in today. I know it's not often that you can find
the time to go on radio programs these days.
PM: It's been my pleasure and can I say thank you to you
Doug and to your listeners because I must say it's been a
very very positive, constructive sort of hour and I've
appreciated it very much.
AITON: Thanks again.
ends