TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH ANNE-MCCAIG, -2WS, FOR STEVE-RAYMOND'S
SHOW, 31 JANUARY 1987
-ONLY----
MCCAIG: Prime Minister your love for Israel goes back many years. What is
. it about that country tha's capture your at-tentioh?
-PM: Well it's a complex of reasons. I suppose-like very very many people
around the world part of it and a large and immeasurable part was the
sense of shared guilt that I had that the world had allowed the
annihilation of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust. And in a way we all share
share some sense of responsibility. And then I understood that the world
had made the decision in the immediate post war period that the Jews were
entitled to have a Land, a state of their own. Australia had played a
leading role in that decision through Doctor Evatt in 1947. And then when
I went there the world to a very large extent was standing fairly mutely
by while they witnessed the attempts of states around Israel to destroy it
And here was a democracy, as you saw it on your visit there,
a remarkable democracy for instance which at that very time when its
destruction was being threatened by force of Soviet arms supplied to
others, allowed as part of its democratic process a Soviet oriented
Communist Party. A vibrant democracy, not without its problems, not
without its weaknesses. But for all those reasons I had this committment.
But at all times from the beginning my views about Israel have been in
association with a view that is my party's.-nd what the
government's platform says, will require also a proper resolution of the
problem of the Palestinians. So my love of the Israelis as you put it
has not been exclusive of a concern for the rights of others.
MCCAIG: You began this trip in Jordan and said you were convinced after
meeting King Hussein of his committment to a peaceful solution. Did that
visit change your perceptions of the Arab-Israeli conflict?
PM: No. I think the right way of saying it is it reinforced the feelings
I had because you'll appreciate I'd had the opportunity of going to
Jordan in ' 78 and ' 80. I hadn't had the opportunity of meeting the King
because on both those occasions he wasn't in the country but I'd had the
long meetings with his brother the Crown Prince Hassan. So what the
meeting with the King and Prime Minister did was to confirm the
perceptions I had then but of course on this. occasion to hear in such
strong language from the King and Prime Minister that committment was
important. I guess the significant part of it was that it wasn't just
a desire for some formal peace settlement. What they want to see is a
peace settlement out of which can come constructive economic co operation
between Israel and Jordan.
MCCAIG: When you went to Jerusalem after your talks in Jordan did you
get the impression from the Israelis that they are any closer to peace?
PM: I t
ycBo^ newSf Sl ict a Jordan and Israet. share the view that the possibility of
Co~ L thi ey both share the
_ V I uO , J -h
PM: ( cont'd)
Thiere are obviously differences of view between Jordan and Israel and to
sc,, te extent within Israel as to how those processes should be pursued
bit I think they are both committed to getting workable processes.
MOCAIG: The other major problem is just what happens to the
Palestinian people. You said in Jerusalem that recognition by Israel and
the of each other under certain conditions was a very
important building block in the work towards peace. Given your own
knowledge of the area and your personal interest, aren't you well placed
to kick off that process in a sense by speaking to PLO officials?
PM: Neither I nor the government woutld negotiate with the P. L. O. while
the-P-7L-. 0.-main ta-irns-its-pr-es-enitofftctai pos itionr. Wha-t--Ve--b-e-ewsayi-nwis
that I think a part of the process of effecting the ultimate
resolution of the Israeli-Arab dispute is to translate what I think are
the facts into a formal statement of those-facts. By that-I mean that
-I believe that however reluctantly it is,-that I-think the leadership of
* the P. L. O. understands-now as distinct from say in the 70' s that Israel
is here to stay. And on the other hand I think that Israel recognises
that there is a representativeness or representative capacity in the
P. L. O. So what I'm saying is that I think it would be useful if you could
get a situation where the P. L. O. translated what I think is a fact
into a public statement of that fact. That would require acceptance of
242 and 338 resolutions of the United Nations. Secondly and implicitly
that follows from the first, the recognition of Israel and third, the
repudiation of terrorism. And in response to that it would then be the
obligation to say well in those circumstances we would treat in the
overall direct negotiations with the P. L. O. as part of that process.
MCCAIG: It would be politically difficult though wouldn't it, for either
party to accept the other?
PM: Well what I'm saying is that in a factual sense they both
recognise the reality of each other. They don't like it but they
recognise that they are there. Now what Ic&' saying is that it just seems
to me to be useful if that sort of fact of the recognition of each other
could be translated under appropriate conditions into a formal
statement. That of itself is not going to solve the problem, but it seems
to me that it would be useful part of creating the necessary building
block for a solution.
But let me say in that... one has to take into account not only the
considerations and interests of Israel vis a vis the P. L. O. but also the
interests of Jordan because Jordan has its concerns about the P. L. O. as
you'll appreciate.
MOCAIG: In Jerusalem you met Palestinians... and they referred to the
oppressive conditions faced by refugees on the t
West Bank. Would it have helped your understanding to visit a refugee camp
PM: Well I have in fact visited a refugee camp.-
MCCAIG: As Prime Minister though?
PM: Not as Prime Minister. I'm aware of the camps and. the problems and
as you know I'm sympathetic to the problems of the Palestinian people
you know fully sympathetic.
So you know I didn't need a visit to, I think, increase that
understanding. And what I said to the Palestinian repres; entatives I spoke
to is that if they wanted to convey details to us, we would look at them
and undertake to convey them to the Israeli authorities. / 3 I
9 a
* MC ATG: It would have been a gesture though.
PM: Well I don't think that the processes that we're talking about
are processes of gestures. I think you would have found if you
talked to the four Palestinians that I spoke to, that they had no
question in their mind about my understanding of their problems.
MCCAIG: Mr Hawke, Switzerland. If I can switch to the
conference in Davos. Is there any joy for Australian farmers in
your international trade proposals to break down protection?
PM: Well there is if they were accepted and acted upon. But I think
my friends in the Australian farming community know that they resolution
of these matters is not something that's going to happen overnight.
There's goi-ng to-be protracted discussions and negotiations involved.
But I was pleased at the reaction I got to my proposals. I think you saw
it was very widespread approbation of the speech and the proposals.
so all I can hope is that that will serve to accelerate the processes of
discussion. There are two strands if you like. There's now has been
concluded in th'ese last few days in Geneva the formal arrangements,
the administrative arrangements for getting the G. A. T. T. round, the
Uruguay round, going. And so there'll be protracted negotiations there.
What we hope is that the proposals I put may provide some basis
for more immediate moves because not only can Australian farmers afford
to wait, but in a real sense the world can't afford to wait for the more
protracted negotiations under the G. A. T. T. round for any progress.
We certainly look to those rounds for final resolutions of difficulties,
but it's in everyone's interests that there should be some more
immediate steps.
MCCAIG: Finally, Prime Minister, I suppose it will be some time before
you take another overseas trip because we have to go to the polls
within the next 14 or 15 months. Will the election be sooner rather than
later. Have you thought of a date?
PM: I've got no reason to change wha-t I've said several times in
Australia before I left... and that is the government will go its full
term and that means as I've said, an electi'n some time in the
period from the end of ' 87 into the early part of 88.
ENDS