PRIME MINISTER
-TRANSCRIPT OF GEORGE NEGUS SPEAKING TO MR HAWKr-2UE 2 JUNE 1986
E .0 -PROOF ONLY
-NEGUS: Are you there Mr. Haw3k?
M1. AWKE; Good day George, how are you?
NEGUS: Ifm well thatnkyou. We dragged you kicking and screaming out
* of an important meeting I gather.
HAWKE: I beg your pardon?
NEGS: We dragged you kicking and scyeaming froM an important meeting
Igather? M. IAWE; Oh Never kicking, never screaming, but always willing to
have a yarn with you George.
-NEGUS: A few things on your mind at the moment I'd say.
MR. HIAWKE: Oh yes but I'm not unrelaxed George, just working away
steadily at them and we will. get the right policy to deal with this
* situation that has been imposed upon us by this drastic decline in
permanent trade.
N. EGUS;. Let's talk about that in a moment but before we do I was
talking earlier to another old mate of yours Jim McC~ eAck-c about
this whole question of minders which has become very much a public
isñ sue for the first time that I can recall in politics. How in
heayens name do people like yourself and Paul Keating allow the minders
to become a public issue?
Mr. HAWKE; Well 1 have'nt made them a public issue is the only
-omment I can make about that.
N EGLJS; Well Paul did.
MR. HAWKE: Well he di~ l anid eh that's an end to it now and I'm not
going to say anything that's going to fuel it. I simply would make
::: the point that I did only reiterate the only public comment I made.
This is as you know, you've been around the place, it's a hothouse
atmosphere of politics in Canberra. and you've got to recognise
that In that some tensions arise. But as far as I'm concerned my
staff, as Paul's starf and rstaff of other Ministers' are loyal to
their Ministers, loyal to their Government, and they are doing a
fine job ad as far as I'm concerned they'r'e doing a f ine job, and
as far as I'm concerned that's the end of the matter.
NZGrS. Could I put it to. you this way' One person said to me
-ovrthe weekend " Paul Keating, pickingj on, if you like, Bob
ff-. aw. ksminders is a way of telling him that he's not getting good
adviCe, which is another way of telling him that he's not doing the
rjght thing.
* mD. IAWKE: Oh well, I say you can'do your speculation. As far as
* I'm concerned the matter iu ended and I'm not going to engage in
,4nfyf, in any,. sort of public discussion about it which would keep
gigsomething which is miniscule, in it's significance.
NSCS: C anI skyou this an hnwe'll get off the minC-ers.
~ ecause there are more important things, I agree. How do you feel
then, ow would you make people eel better about the fact that
there would appear to be in Canberra, a group of blokes, working
for you and for other ministers, who appear to have incre. dible
: power, incre dible influence over elected politicians, and people
* As important in the h-q as yourself. How cdn you make in a
democratic: society as, weIqke to think we are, how can you make
people feel better about those kind of. unelected people swinging
herweight around behind the scenes?
HAWKE: This is something which goes on in all democracies
and haB gone in on this country Since we've been a parlimentary
., democracy. Elective figures always have people on their staff and
in this day and age I think there's more of it on both sides
o6f politics and it's a good thing.
IEGS; Do you think it'G possible they overstep the mark occasionally?
M4R. HAWKE: Let me finish. I. think that in an increasingly
complex worla any elected figures that have got responsibility
. re foolish if they don't try and get as much good. profesaional
. advceas they can and then be in a position of having heard
hat people have to0 say, then you make up your own mind. And
the way I operate and I know it's theway my Ministers
operate. They try and get a~ s much as adviCe as they can, then
* having got the advic-e they make the decisions, and that'G the
. way in a Gensible democracy it ought to happen.
UEGJS: How often would you say that you have your mind changed
-by your minders?
N;-.? R. HAWKE: I reject the word minders and i'm not going to accept
the word minders.
N4EGUS: How uhall we describe them then do
you. reckon? Itow should we describke them?
MR.: HAWKE: Staff I mean it'It.; a pretty simple w ell known and
. accurate expression. So i suggest that it be used.
i:' NENGUS, So from now on the word minders, we're going to strike
itfrom the old political dictionary.
HRHAWKE; I don't mind it being lasnad, it's inaccurate and if
pcoplo want to be inaccuiatC Jr, the: ir lanrjua'Je then that's
Ilr igh t. bu t I'm accurati-, iii my. u-' c of lanqu. Ige.
' 2NGt~.. Iguess, one of the reasons why people are concerned by
the* use of. that, word, and this is wha't you would . p: 0bably like to
try and stop, in that from that television seriese theM) inder/ is
bloke who goes round thumping people on behalf * of someone else,
nd maybe that's what people thought your minders have been doin . g,
6O. Paul Keating has been suggesting that. they are leaning on people.
MR.* HAWKEi None of them are built in that proportion George.
NEGUS:. One of them at least is a fairly sturdy bloke as I recall.
tA R. -HAWYE; Plumpish.
: lNEGUS: Pluwpish, not to put too finer point on it. I thank,. o
~' for'saying that because I realise that the minders thing is something
;. O. that is not often talked about in Australian politics.
MR. HAWKE: As I have moved around Australia in the last few days
-no o) ne, but no one has raised it with me.
Really? Well the newspapers have wriftc-*% about it at least
we've all gota little tooclose to it do you think?
' t4R. HAWKE I Yes, this. is often the case, I mean I'm constantly
. mused, literally amused, by the fact the old scribes
~ wri~ e away., and I move around the country and see thousands of
~ eople and never get the issue raised with me.
-NEGUS: Well, anyway, give, give
-KR. HAWKE; The ordinary Australian people, your liste. c.. S and the
oriaynesae reader is a little more astute often than the
pe~ othat do the writ% 4-.
Nt~ GUS-Er, anyway, give Peter and Geoff and Bob my regards.
HAWKE: Yes, I'll pass it on to my staff.
~ EGt1S: Urn, Mr. Hawke, You've said that you've drawn stumps on this
; K; weoa, tein gis Vlsiukee. ly Butot raerseo ltvhee othbevmiosuesl vedsi ffine rethnce esn eabre twfeuetun rey, o u baencda usMer.
*.. that seems to be almost the politicadl issue in the country today,
* Can. Bob Hawke and Paul Keating get their economic act together?
MR. IAK: wasn't aware of them, so, perhaps again this is
acaso where those who arc removed from the acene know what
* tceat the scene don't know. Would you tell me what the obvious
differences are le ere
N E GUS t Well, I'll tell you the differencesi that people have percieved
I ian HAWKE.-
0 E GU Si Pardon?
SmR. HAWKE: What are they in your opinion?
4-
N -E: G 1 It would seczr thAt niobody is certain at the moment who is
i n tact calling-the economic. sho t 9?
lhAaWtE ; ho dos tatmake a difference? Wh a t
tdhf freceis there between Mr. Keating and myself
24~ US: Well if you agree,
-OR, .1AWKS: Sure about who's calling the shots, let me
6~ iear that up for them. I'm in charge of this( government and I'm
~ charge of ' it's directions, and very specifically at this
Xnomdnt I'm chairing the meeting of Ministers';* which is dealing with
. i-tke reconsideration of any policy decisions which we think are
tiecessaryto deal with this current difficult, e* Xternal, economic,
, s6it: uation, now those are the facts. Now where are the differences?
~ ImG U S Dia it come as a great surprise to you? I' was out of the
, c ou ntr. y myself, so I'm asking youa genuine question. Were you shocked
an) d indeed angry as it has been suggested, when Paul Keating annouL* Cec
to the world that we should probably have what's being called a
miLni economic summit.
HAWKE: To be fair to Paul he didn't announce that we should
; have a mini economic summit. What happen was thct there was a
meet~ ing of the back had to advise the committee on
, pri. ccs and iricome6, and that it emerged that perhaps some people
i" t hought it might be an idea to have an extended meeting. Now both
* Pui and. RalIph, sa id wellI , i f you wa nt to ext end the mee t ing t hat ' s
niot ' a bad idea, we'll agree to, that, / 4nd then out of that,
and . I'ye seen the transcripts, the media buil+ up some of the
c.. onc epts and they're quite inaccurate. It couldn't he_, gz had anything
JCGtIS So you don't think that your friend Paul would try to
' tthe jump on you?
: MR. H9AWK?.: Vo.
You definitely don't.
SHAWKE. Tha t'sa f air cnouq. 1
bfl. HAWKE: Listen the diffc~ t~ t, cet; between Mr. Keating and myself,
efore this programme is over, If you don't mind, I woula like
49ut toll me what the differences are.
tEGt7S Well, what about. this then, _ ou ' ye announced now that
-you r a going to make a statement, a statement to the nation if you
, Jke or. economic matters. H-ad you planned, had you
14 RHAWKE; George, that'a right.
.14GUS: Sorry, that will be noxt week?
h. JAK: That will be next week. That's what I said and
: t ats what Ivsidteahpint. I'm not telling you something
tia t. I have'nt saiO new about six'times.
: tEGIJS: Right. Well let me ask you this then?
.; i4IR. HAWKEt Yep.
EGJS: Had you planned to make that ecos'o;,' ic statem~ ent to the nation
,,,:. before Paul keating suggested that tie wanted an eccor. omic summit?
O* a fter.
'. M. HAWKE. No, it was after, It had no relation to that meeting
itiha a relation to was the emergence of not
j3us t the balance of paymlents figure but then the ' national accounts
jigu're which b ave put in a very dark form those national
, accounfti gures came out last week. Put in a very stark fc-ras tahat
ie tere aware was emerging and that is a losp of national
xi' ncome as a result of the drastic fall in export ' prices compared with
. m p o rt prices. I mean with throwing a whole lot of statistics
a, you George Very simple one is this, in the last twelve months
u p to the end of the March quarter, we've lost the equivalent of three
per cent of our Gross Domestic Product as a result of the turn-around
i. An the terms of trade. And no respondible Goverrnment confronted
vihthose factual statistics, can say well alright we don't take
L 4~ yc contof it. So what I said is right, we're going to have a
' m eeting of the relevant Ministers and we'* re goingj to
~ n~ ierwhat steps need to be taken to protect the interests
6 t e Aue'tralian people in that situation. And in those
_-,-orcumstances as part of thosfe dircussions with my Cabinet and my
C' Jinisters. I said, well I will be bringing together that statement
and. making a statement to the people of Australia-Now that, in
: a quite uncomplicated and totall! emerged.
-bkEGUS And Paul thinks that is a good idea? we'll go to a break
-in a moment Mr. Hawke and come back and talk about just how bad
,.. you reckon the economnic situation is.
i-K. R.,, HAWKJE9 4tu ibreak, you'll come back and tell me
t the differences are right.
-OREGUS: .1* 11 try very
tR.. HAWKE: ' Righto.
,~ iNEGUS: Back in a moment.
NEGUS; Back B~ ob Hawke, The Prime Mini-ttejr whose asking as
MAo3y questions as I am at thetuomente which is fair enough, under
the circumutalcetU You auked me what I thought the differences
weebetweon you aricI Piit. I Kc-irxq
Hl. AWKE: * Yes.
l~ CS: Ithink it'n probably fair to niay 1. hat, on economic matters
you probably have very few differenrces. You'd, agree with that?
' J~ KR. HAWI~ Thankyou.
fl GJS~ Only a matter of uetail ]) eye and there.
~ 4HAWKE; Yes, that's right George, I mean if Y~ ou look back over
A*.' the ' three years, I think the formulation of econqmic policy has
been very much a Hawke, Keating a c~ t i( n It's true at
: pj articular point we might have had a slight difference then, but
: very much a oprtov. ad ebelieve , effective effort.
ltEGUSS Still, still mates, is he still a regular visitor at the
' fHA4WRK E: Of course we're matvs. I mean politicians and
*;', ooleyou know, as volatile ae both Paul and I, you'll have
*.... moments when if you've got a bit of a difference ' about something
-,-You % ron't express it in aciw/ all. y elegant, Victorian, drawing
romlanguage,
fj'J G USñ I can't imagine you or him doing that.
R. HAWKE: That's right, but Welee_
.,: NICGUS Could 1 put it-to you this way then? I ' d agree that
youreprobably on the same path eccnomically, but politically,
i~ aybe things have got a little bit astray?
HMR. 1AWKE: Ncot I don't think that'-s
:' lV EUS: What oddG would you give Paul Keatirg as Lbeing your successor?
HjR HAWKE; Oh, I'm not goi. ng to enter into t ha t. Ivs 4'-
Paul, nor to any other aspirant. I've said, and I'm woz-e
' that' happy to repeat, Paul is a very 9, bvious candidate
r, . to 8uccead me c \ vry obvious candidate, and as he has said, and I
haesaid when I step down, it will be for the party to make
choice.
. NECaus: Do you think he would have been all that thrilled by
. complimentary noises you were making about Kjv\ 4 Teazley the
~ Defr~ ccminister recently.
M A. HAWKE:' Of courge he would because Kiti. and Paul are the
;, 6* osest of mates axnd friends they spend a lot of time together,
i~ t'. they have-thtu utmost respect for one another.
NE~ IS: Would you still rate Paul Keatingj aG the fin~ est
' Finance Minister or Treasurer in the world the Way you did some
le a r a..
NHR. JAWKEt the hest Treasurer in the world, of course
EJGUS: Do youthink it'a possible, as somebody looking At Australia
the moment and seeing what's going on with the economy and the
.,:. Problems that you're facing, I") it possible that rather than you
running the country, or Paul Xeating running the country or even*
your. Mindars running td. co'untry, that the country is running you?
ItHAWKE: well, in a sense it's true for any politician in the
:, western world today that his own, his or her own economy and the
economy runs them. And it's quite incisiveque stion
. orge.
-, NEGUS s I've got one.
HAWKE: It is economic events that determine to a very I a rge*
extent in western democracy's political outcome, and that's why
from the day I became leader of this party in February, C-f
83 I made it clear that economic matters that were central to
task of political management and we came to office then
. With the economy in the worst rec ession for fifty years,
, s you know. And my central commit,-,-Paul's central' commit--J-.
-~ and the Governments central comt~,~-was to turn that round and
v. e ' ye done that, and had rates of growth the highest in the
western world and employment growth's the highest in our history.
Now, having done that in cooperation with the Australian public,
-~ and I Bay to yourlistners I mean that, we just haver-' 1 made
.4he right decisions here, the Australian people, the ordinary
* Australian people ha'.' e cooperated and together we have done it.
NEGLJS: Did you say that you hadn't made the right decisions?
' fP id I get you right there?
* MR. MAWKEt I beg you pardon?
NEGUS; Did you say that on occaslcv you hadn't made the right
ee' c is io n a
M'R. HAWKE: I'm saying that I th~ ink we consistently have made
the right decison, I'm saying that we Louldn't do it ourselves,
* sitting in Canberra making decisions. e rceded the cooperation,
of the Australian people, and we've had it. Now three years down
the~ track. there's been a massive decline in the prices we get for
Swhat we all. overseas. And our import prices are still rising so
* that means an all in real capacity within Australia to
, sustain atandards, and wev: got to deal with that. NIow what
I'm doing with my flinisters is to fine tune cur strategy so that
NEGUSñ Can I come in there, Can I come in there just for a moment.
People probably accept the tact that you've got problems, we'vye
all, got problems, and you are tryin, to fine tune, and obviously
.,, there is no quick fiX, no overnight rc-for this sort of thing
4z when your talking about Austrailia',, economy being affected by
;...... international economic movements. Do you have any idea how long
you. reckon it will take before you will be able to may to mec and to
a nybody else, for that matte-:. Yecl\ we reckon we ' ve got th.;
economy norted ., ut.
8g
MR. HAWKE: Well, we've got the Australian ecomnfy is not un-sor ted
out. With what's happening internally is basically ' correct
What we've got to do. is to adjust to the fallen capacity Iin~ obed'
upon us from outside.. Now you ask how lon~ g, we'll1 make the decis). ohV. Ij.
and i'll announce them next week, the changes arid fine tunings that'
a re necessary. Now,' of course George, in part, the anOUwOr av fo. 0
. ng the sort of restraints will be necessary, relate to the
basic question-How long are the terms of trade gcincj to M oi ng
as adversely as this~? I hope, and particularly not just f-o thle
sake of Australia ac a whole but for the sake of our farmers that''
we start to get some lift in our price from rural exports because,*
they are terribly low. I hope for our miners that we get an
improvement, a further improvement in prices for min~ erals, p r d 4 6 t W
I think the only honest thing one can say George is that' the,
with the lift in international economic activity that'o go-in gq to bt:"
associated with cheaper energy prices I think we can expect the'
change to come somewhat sooner than perhaps we would have expected q
NEGUS: We' re running out of time, you mentioned restr'ir, t~ s are yodi
able to put your f inger on what kind of restraints peopl e can,
lor forward to, or * not look forward to?
MR. HAWKE: > wish your new programme well, when I announde
those decisions they will tE icot on your proartimme, I'm sorry about-%-œ t j
that NEGUS: That's alright as long as they're not on someone elses.
MR. HAWKE: I'll give you that undertaking it w. or.' t be
on someone else.
NEGUS: we're just. about out of time. How's the old soda w'ater
drinking going?-
mR. HAWKE: Oh, still as exciting as ever.
NEGUS: You'd be just about a connoisseur by now wouldn't you?
MR. HAWKE; Yep. well, authority.
NEGUS: I was burprised to hear a couple of weeks ago you mumbling
the word retirement, or people were using it. in reference to yoursel.--
that came as a bit of a 3urprLSe to Me. J
MR~. HIAWKE-You know I've always been a bit of a retiring charac
NEGUS: The older the politicals drinking violet. : 2
MR. HAWKE: That's right.
NEGUS: Rlaye you, have you put a limit. on it-. k.
MR. HAWKE: No Geozg&'. Exc-pt: th,, t. i quite lorepared a g ain to a y
thin that I'm not about staiying in politic-tot-ever. I love this, t
country I wanted to do a jch, I think I've it), le Lone, there's morg
to be done, but 1 don't see that in terms of many, many, many,
YCArs. -17 tw Z 0I -1Ilk."! LM* Q L'A
-9-
t 41GU.$: fany, many, many years, what a couple of terms7
IIAWKS~ Let me put it this way, we'll certainly go to the
next election and win that one and then I would think that sometime
bitween that next one and, you know before, the o ne after that
L maybe appropriate.
,.. tGU: We'll all g0 away with our pens and pipc:: sf and try and
Y..% ork out exactely what Bob Hawke's saying at-oulL. hit; iatirement
~; watthat sounds to me like about, between two and five years.
1R. HAWYKS; S omething of that order,' but let me say
y: hi a no thought of ietiremnent Is not ir. mind in these days
.,. p~, here's a big, big, job to be done and I'm * 2ndyo tiot.
N E. GUt. a Good, good. one final question: this realy is the last
: J.
-One. one commentator today suggested that because of the econom:' t
I, ;. predi~ amenqt that we all agree we're in You should go to the poll s
adget youself a man~ date for the new econrmic direction you're
gingto take us in.
R. HAWKE: Ah, that's not necessary, I have a mandate, a clear
Smandate, the people like the soft of way we go about economic
ip61icy making and we'll go ahead and do that* I've said this
i, parliament will go it's full tera., it will go it's complete term
(; eorge I can asure you.
, J4EGUS; Thanks very much. Thanks for talking to us and giving us
, your time and we'll talk to you again for sure.
A> IR. HAWKE: Thanks George ar'd all the best to you mate.
A'. EGUS z ' N'aO~ Mr. Hawke.
Dt