E. O. E. PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW THE MIDDAY SHOW WITH RAY MARTIN
21 FEBRUARY 1985
MARTIN: The Prime Minister, Mr Bob Hawke has for the past
two days been involved in close discussion with all the parties,
and he has joined up in our Parliament House studio with us now,
so welcome to the show Mr Hawke.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks Ray.
MARTIN: I know that you have spent the last couple cf hours,
the last hour or so with the Federal President of the AMA and
with Mr Mulock, the NSW-Minister, do you have good news for us?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, talks are continuing Ray, I don't want
to at this stage say anything by way of public comment to prejudice
those discussions, but I have some optimism.
MARTIN: Well, that's good. We'll leave it at that then.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.
MARTIN: I don't want to be too melodramatic about it, but cuite
clearly we have reached the twelFth hour, there is the prospec:-
that someone will die in a NSW hospital soon.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I have a great senseogesperation, in one way
about the position that has been reached and-I have a great
feeling of compassion for those people who have suffered so far
and may suffer more. I don't think however, that by me engaging
at this stage in blame attribution and criticism that I am going
to help things. As I say there are some discussions going on,
and I hope that as a result of the dedicated efforts of both
the Government here and Premier Wran and his Ministers and our
opportunity to talk to those people who do really want to get th-e
matter resolved that we will be able to do that. I certainly
am prepared to bend all our best efforts to that end. I think
we will get there, and I hope soon.
MARTIN: The fact that you are putting so many hours into this
is indicative of your concern, that you do see it as a major
crisis.
PRIME MINISTER: It is a very, very serious crisis. A lot Of
crises that face the nation and so on, can be seen in ceneral
economic terms, they don't have an immediate personal dimension,
but this does. It is innocent kids and mothers, old people Nf.! o are
suffering and we want an end brought to that.
MARTIN: Again, I hesitate to ask you this question. It may
be too soon because of the discussions you are talking about
is it a case of Dr Blewett having to go or Medicare having to go.
PRIME MINISTER: No certainly Dr Blewett doesn't have to go and
will not go. Unfortunately there has been a section of the
profession in NSW who I believe have wanted to use this dispute
as a method of trying to smash Medicare. Now, the situation
is that the people of Australia have endorsed that and that scheme
is here and it is here to stay. But it was no intention of
the Government in giving effect to the will of the people in regard
to a universal and fair system of medical and health irnsurance.
It was no part of our intention to inflict income losses, serious
income losses on Doctors, who conduct part of their practice
in public hospitals. We don't want them to carry the b urden
and we therefore are open to discussions about how we can meet some
problems that have emerged in that area. And it is in this, I
believe responsible way of negotiation and discussion with them
that we can get a resolution bf the problem.
MARTIN: Now, Linsday Thompson is the Federal President of the
AMA, but does he speak for the surgeons.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we have to concede Ray, that there is
some medical politics going on, there's some demarcation disputes,
if I can use the language of the trade union movement. And that
has increased the difficulties. We have tried ourselves not
to make worse that conflict within the medical profession and
therefore we have been prepared to speak as well as to the AMA,
to representatives of the procedural specialists. Now, I spoke
on two nights in succession with the procedural specialists and
their representatives here in Canberra. We weren't able to get
anywhere because they seemed to be more concerned with the idea
of smashing Medicare, and so we are now in discussions with
Lindsay Thompson and I believe we, as I say we've got the chance
of getting somewhere.
MARTIN: There seemed to be of course, good arguments on both sides,
but I guess ordinary Australians are saying, look we don't want
your excuses we just want those doctors back.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, of course the people want the doctors back
and of course My Government and Mr Wran's Government wants the
doctors back. We want the public hospital system working and
working well and producing the good and efficient service to the
people of NSW that it has so markedly done in the past. And in
so far as there are real problems concerning the impact upon
doctors of the transition to Medicare which has affected adversely
their income, they are entitled to be heard and we are discussing .13
PRIME MINISTER cont: those matters with them. What cannot happen
though is there cannot be a use of this particular dispute to try
and smash the whole system of Medicare. Now, I think we have reache&
the point where we are sorting out those two issues, separating
them as they must be done, and I repeat Ray it is a little bit
difficult I can't go into more details at the moment, but there
are serious discussions going on with Dr Thompson and his
colleagues. I think there is a chance of success there.
MARTIN: Alright let's go further north of the border Mr Prime
Minister. Sir Joh has asked you for help strange bed-fellows
I would have thought with the I am thinking of the electrical
workers strike in Queensland, are you going to help him out?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I am not going to help out in those
terms. Now let's be quite clear about this position, earlier
this week Sir Joh got in touch with me and he was talking about
wanting to bring in people from overseas, and what would be the
position in regard to visas. Now, I said well you send me something
in writing about it and we'll look at that. Now, I have had my
Minister, Mr Ralph Willis across this issue and in the event
yesterday I issued a statement calling upon all parties that was
not just the unions, but the employers and the Government there
to respect the decision of the independent umpire.* Now, let's
have this quite clear, so everyone has the facts clearly in their
mind the State Industrial Commission is the arbitral tribunal
in Queensland, not appointed by any Labor Government. All the
appointments under the term and time of Government of Sir Joh,
so it is his appointed tribunal. Now that tribunal, on two
occasions on the 7th and 13th February, I think are the dates,
are the latest decisions the tribunal said to all parties
here are our recommendations our instructions to you return
to work on these terms. Now it is very interesting that the
workers and the unions and the employers both said yes, we accept
that. In other words the unions employed in the SEQEB said yes,
we accept that. The SEQEB which is the South Eastern Queensland
Electricity Board that's the direct employer said yes, we
accept that. So in the classic industrial relations dispute
situation you had the unions and the employer saying yes we accept
the decision and the recommendation of the independent umpire.
Now in any other state of Australia or in the Commonwealth
jurisdiction that would be the end of the matter, because when
you have the employer and unions saying yes, we accept to go
back, but what happened here the Premier intervened and said
no. So despite the fact that you had agreement between the
employer and the unions, yes this will settle it the Premier
stopped it. Now in those circumstances, it is quite clear Ray,
that no responsible Prime Minister or Commonwealth Government
can intervene and try and override the independent tribunal and the
agreement of the employer and the unions.
MARTIN: Put it in shorthand for us then Mr Hawke, I mean you've
said that some surgeons are trying to break, bust Medicare, is
Sir Joh trying to bust the unions in Queensland?
PRIME MINISTER; Well, I am a reasonably ambitious person in
terms of -and am reasonably confident in terms of my ca-pacitvy
to understand things. I think I am reasonably intelligent, but
it justifies my ambition and imagination to understand precisel-i
what is in the mind of Sir Joh. Certainly many of his own
Cabinet colleagues can't understand what he is about, they
are in dispute with him, and increasingly so are employers in
Queensland. Now, since I have been Prime Minister I haven't
tried to pick fights with Sir Joh. I have tried as far as I can
to be co-operative because my concern is the interest of the people
of Queensland and of Australia. But I am not going to get -: nt* c
a position where I am going to be aligned with Sir Joh in tryinz
to smash the arbitration system, because that's what's involved.
He may have in mind trying to smash some trade unions, but z-uc--
more fundamentally than that as far as the people of Queenslaand
are concerned he is trying to smash the arbitration system andc
that's not on. I mean the BLF are about that too I suppcse you
could say. Some strange bed-fellows in these attacks upcn the
arbitration system and I reject the attempts of the BLF to smash
the system. I reject the attempts of Sir Joh to smash it.
MARTIN: Did it tickle your sense of humour though that he shoul; d
say to you, come on Bob give us a hand.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I have witnessed Joh in action now, for a
couple of years from the vantage point of Prime Ministership.
I think really I've reached the poi* nt%. where nothing amazes e
about Sir Joh.
MARTIN: Alright Mr Hawke, just between you and me.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, and a couple of million other people, yes.
MARTIN: Are you having fun in this job?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I enjoy it. I worked hard I guess to get
here, and I've enjoyed it. Basically if I can very qu-' ckly say
why I enjoy it is that you are in a position where you can waJra
great deal of assistance, from a great range of decert oecple
I mean not only in Parliament, but in the business ; uun.
organisations of Australians, trade unions, a whole range of
people there' has been a great deal of co-operation to try an:
get this country going again. I think we have turned it arcund.
We had inherited a very, very severe recession. We are creati. ng
more jobs, we have brought inflation down, we are creating more
opportunities for young people and that, I mean it is very hard
to explain Ray, what an enormous of sense of satisfaction and 7I
think legitimate pride that can give to you. And I repeat it
not something you do yourself, but I feel I have been able to
generate an enormous amount of co-operation and co-operative
spirit amongst the people in the organisation of Australia, an:-
that is very satisfying.
MARTIN: We had an old mate of yours on earlier in the progra...,
George Negus.
PRIME MINISTER: Old George, yes how is he going?
MARTIN: Old George suggested you were more fun when you were
drinking.
PRIME MINISTER: It may have been more fun for him and it may
at-times have been more fun for me, but I think I am a -more
efficient Australian since I have stopped.
MARTIN: What about your hide Mr Hawke, is the hide thicker now,
do you handle I mean we have got a cartoon for example
from this week's Bulletin you must have seen. " Look I am not
Jesus Christ". -" That's another broken promise."
PRIME MINISTER: I hope that's not revealing a state secret.
MARTIN: But I mean is the hide thick now, do you handle those
headlines that say, Hawke does a back-flip, MX missile stuff.
When you see the headlines that you vehemently disagree with, can
you handle that now?
PRIME MINISTER: Sure, I have always been able to handle that.
I mean I was a fairly public figure before I went into Parliament.
I had ten years as President of the ACTU. I mean there was no
absence of cartoons then Ray. I can handle it and let me say
I appreciate the cartoonists art. I think it is a great feature
of Australian life, I enjoy them.
MARTIN: Alright well did you enjoy the gallop polls. The latest
gallop poll in fact has you way down from that
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, Ilexpected that the events of the last
week would cause a slump for me and the Government and so I was
not surprised. We'll come back, you mentioned the KX, could
I just take a couple of moments briefly to make a point you talk
about a back-flip. The situation there Ray, that is that in good
faith, three Ministers myself, Gordon Scholes, who was then the
Defence Minister and Bill Hayden. We made a decision that we
thought in all the circumstances was in the best interests, not
just of the Government, but of the country. I was then faced when
I got to Brussels with a situation where with the release of that
proposal it was not only in my party, it wasn't just the ' leftwing',
it was right across my party, but it was much broader
than that. There was a concern, and what I could see was that
two important things were in danger, one was the central importance
which I attach and will always continue to attach to the alliance
relationship with the United States which involves the bases here,
ship visits, that's central and I wasn't going to allow something
to develop which would endanger that continuing central issue,
which I regard as fundamental to Australia's external position
buit something which was transient. And secondly, and very
important I think for all the people of Australia, my Government
is about seriously in the relevant international forums trying
to see what we can responsibly do gradually to reduce the level
of nuclear armaments in the world. And I was coming to the
view with all the reaction to that first decision that our integrity
and capacity to work hard internationally, to advance the causes
of disarmament may also be impaired. So, for those two reasons
I changed the decision and I don't think it should be taken as a
sign of weakness, the original decision was taken in good faith.
I think it was the correct thing to do in the circumstances, but then
1--was faced with a new circumstance and I believed then, and when
I got to Brusrels that Australia's best interest in those
circumstances in regard to those two things the centrality
of keeping the United States alliance, the ANZUS intact, with all ./ 6
a 6.
PRIME MINISTER cont: it entails, and secondly, our capacity
to pursue disarmament proposals in the realm of international
quarters-those were overwhelmingly important. They were more
important and the United States Government understood that they
were more important than adhering to the first decision. So I
want to say, if I can through you to the people of Australia,
I don't believe that the change in the decision was a sign of
weakness. It was the rightful thing to do, and I believe that
as time goes on that will be accepted.
MARTIN: A yes . or no answer, do you think that it affected your
popularity, your poll, that is in this week's Bulletin.
PRIME MINISTER: No, my change of decision didn't, but what
did affect the Party adversely was the public squabbling and
airing of different views. That certainly hurt it.
MARTIN: Is that going to stop?
PM: Yes.
MARTIN: We heard from Mr Lange, the New Zealand Prime
Minister, early this week. He announced on the program~
broke the news that in fact he is coming to Australia. Are
you looking forward to a game of tennis with him?
PM: Yes, as I said, I think I might be a bit quicker on
my feet than David, but
MARTIN: I'm not sure. He is pretty good. And I
understand as well that you are playing cricket again this
coming weekend.
PM: Yes, there is a re-match of the game against the press
in which there was a certain incident back there a couple of
months ago.
MARTIN: Is it true that you are in fact wearing one of the
Ned Kelly helmets?
PM: Not Ned Kelly, but I have had a couple of cricket helmets
sent to me, Ray, and amongst other people Hazel suggested that
it would be appropriate that I should wear it, so I'usually
do what she tells me.
MARTIN: That's good to hear and it's good to have you home,
Mr Hawke.
PM: It's good to be here, thank you. And may I say to you,
Ray, all the best for your new program.
MARTIN: Thank you.