'. 4 PRIME MINISTERR
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW WITH BOB MAUMILL, RADIO 6PR
19 OCTOBER 1984
O. E. PROOF ONLY
MAUM ILL: How has it been since last I spoke to you, oh,' it must be nineteen months ago?
PM: It's been the most interesting and rewarding period of my life, I guess, Bob. We've had the opportunity of loading the Government to
deliver the promise we'made to Australia that we'd turn it round
from the recession and thedivisiveness and the confrontation, of
early 1983 to the country which now has the highest rate of
economic growth in the world a happier, more united country,
more hope for our young people. And it's been a matter of pleasure
and pride to be associated with that.
HAUMILL: Any personal disappointments in the job?
PM: W ell nothing that you wouldn't have expected, just in the sense that it's a terribly lonely and isolated job in many respects. Very long hours I don't complain about that but it means that your capacity to maintain the personal friendships and links; that you had before has diminished. You simply haven't got the time or the opportunity. And that's a drawback.
MAUMILL: It's been said by friends of mine from the BBC who have been in Australia looking at our country and our style of politics that
one of your most brilliant performers and they use the word
sincerity is your wife, Hazel. Now I've met Hazel on a number
of occasions. I've interviewed Ffer on this programne. We had a
rap one time behind the scenes when you and I both performed before
a live audience in Hyde Park over here. And my friends from the BBC
said they were struck by the simplicity of Hazel Hawke's approach
to political life and her sincerity.
PM: Mm. She's a remarkable-woman. I knew, Bob, what her qualities
were, but I don't think even I realised how magnificent she would
be in the job because up until I became Prime Minister she had
consciously and for good reasons remained in the background with
the family hadn't been into public projection. When I became
Prime Minister she accepted that as my wife she inevitably had
duties and obligations to play a different role from the one she
had in the past. And none of us had seen her in this more
continuously projected position, but she has been nothing short of
superb.
MAUM ILL: Sincerity and strength?
PM: Yes. All of that. And an articulatness she's got everything.
MAUMILL: Do you feel that you can always rely-on her, that she's not going to go out in public and make a gaffe? What I'm really asking is has Hazel got political nous?
PM: Yes. She's got nous in the sense that she doesn't play politics. mean ifa person espouses cause it may just as well apply
these days to a man whose wife is in public life but if the
spouse hasn't himself or herself been naturally and continuously
in politics and they then come to that role and are trying to
play it, they'll make mistakes. There'll be gaffes. But she's
not in that... . oh she Just calls it as sees it. And therefore,
there are not going to be those gaffes I think.
MAUMILL: Prime Minister will you carry any scars out of recent political battles, and
PM: I will out of recent cricket battles! ( Laughter) Bob..
PM: ( Laughter) The best shiner I've ever seen!
PM: You ain't seen the best of it! You know it's really diminishing a bit now!
MAUMILL: What about the scars because of accusations that have been made on the floor of Parliament?
PM: Oh I think the scars are being worn by those who made the
accusations. It was very as well as being low, gutter politics
on the part of those who did it the Leader of the Oppositio'n and
others it was also stupid. Because I've been aL publicly ex; posed
figure for so long peopl~ e know my nature and to be making those
allegations that I'm a crook and I associate with crooks and I'm
directed by those who direct crooks were so manifestly absurd.
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PM.. 4 IPERTH
Then they were given the opportunity. That fornight ago, the
Tuesday, in the Parliament, three weeks now. They were given the
opportunity. And I think there is nothing that the Australian
people really despise more than those who make recklessly, willful,
false allegations given the chance to stand up and, they don't.
People despise that. So the scars are not with me, but with
others. MAUMILL: The last time we spoke on this programme was the day that
Australia won the America's Cup -a joyous time for all of us.
PM: Yeah. MAUM ILL:
At that time I said that I felt that your parliamentary performances
indicated that you were trying to find your feet, that you had
a tendency at times to labour the point in an effort to make it.
Not so now. Economy of wordage seems to have come into your
parliamentary performances and you go straight for the jugular.
PM: Well. ) AAUMILL:.
You learned a bit about the game.
PM: Well I hope I'm an intelligent person, Bob, and I think I am and
if you don't learn at anything you do then it's very silly. And
I am a better parliamentary performer now than the brief time ago
when I went into the place. I hope that everything that I do now
I do better through time, except playing the hook shot. I used
to be able to play that very much better...
MAUMILL: ( Laughter) As the black eye will testifyi
PM. 5 PERTH
MAUMILL: Prime Minister we also discussed last time you were here the
Hawke luck. There's a lot of it and a lot of it is good luck.
You said we won the America's Cup, the drought's broken, Auatralia
is on the threshold ofan era of prosperity because of the breaking
of the drought % we'd suddenly been projected into the international
eye particularly in the business community the OECD figures
were all great and their view of-us was excellent. Can we keep
i t up?
PM: Yes I believe we-can. You're quite right in pointing out, as I
have myself, that we've had our share of good fortune. The
breaking of the drought certainly was good, not only for the.
rural community, but for the country as a whole. But let me put
it this way, Paul Keating, my brilliant Treasuer hasn't recently
been awarded the prize as the world's number one finance minister
because the drought broke. Ile has been awarded that in recognition
of his and the Government's spectacular efforts in turning this
economy around from the point where we'd had the worst recession
since the Great Depression, the place was economically stagnant.
We've turned that round, where in the last twelve months we've
had the highest rate of economic growth in the world. And that's
happened because we've made the right decisions, but in turn.
that goes back to the people themselves. What I promised
Australia in February and March of ' 83 when we were campaigning
was that I wanted to bring Australia together. And I said if
we come together, work together, then there is nothing we cannot
do. Now the people have responded to that and the results have
been spectacular.
MAUM ILL:
The accord. It was aL central plank . in everything that Hawke.
wanted to do that was to get business and unions together. It's
derided by some people, namely John Stone, yet, overseas it's been
accepted by people over there who have trouble getting the unions
and the business community together as a sort of a utopian ideal 6
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PM. .6 PERTH
that they should all strive for. That an accord where unions
and business get together and sort out their problems rather, than
having lengthy strikes and, if you like, confrontation. Would you
say it can continue?
PM: Yes it will. It will continue for a number of reasons, not least
of which is the self-interest ofrtbe peoples involved. I mean
I never underrate in life the motive of self-interest. Everyone
has it. Now as far as the trade unions are concerned, they want
to have a position where ordinary working men and women that they
represent are going to he able to maintain their standards of
living and through time gradually improve them. And the business
community, equally legitimately, wants an environment in which they
arc going to be able to increase their profitability, their capacity
for more investment, their capacity to create more jobs. Now the
accord which exists in the formal sense between the trade unions
and Government, but which in reality has been exctended to the
business community, the business community and the trade unions
understand the truth of what I've been putting for so long. And
that is that in working together and co-operating they're each
much more likely to achieve those objectives if they work together
rather than fight one another. So there's a self-interest for the
trade unions. There's a self-interest for the business community
and there's an intereist for the Government on behalf of the people
in working together rather than against one another. And we've
produced those spectacular results. We've created more than a
quarter of a million new jobs since the summit. Prior to that a
quarter of a million rise in unemployment in the last twelve
months. We've halved inflation from 11.2 per cent down to
significantly less than half of that. We've reduced interent
rates and as far as the ' business community is concerned prol'itability
has returned to the levels of more than a decade ago. Real unit
labour costs have been reduced to the levels of the 1960s and the
trade union movement has been able to maintain the real standards
or its members. So,. everyone is'better off. And while everyone / 7
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b'frlI. LUsNf-IL MEIJIM LI~ iISON SERUXC~~ PTHCI~ 9) 3~~ 79e6 ~ 7 PER~ TH
sees that the results are better with industrial disputation the
lowest for 16 years then, for all these reasons, people are
going to say it's more sensible to live and work this way.
MAUMILL: People are also saying; will the Hawke Government impose a
capital gains tax if they're re-elected?
PM: Well let me say that Mr Peacock is doing his very best as he sort
of nips around the edges without talking about matters of substance
to try and instill some fear on this subject. Now the facts are
quite clear and I'm glad, Bob, that you've giv me the
opportunity of going to it we have said that the whole area of
tax is one in which we ought to have the processes of public
consultation in the same way as we've conducted economic policy
since we came into office. The reason why the economy is going so
well is because we talk with the various groups in the community
and try and get a degree of concensus. That's what we'll do in
tax. And what I've said is that if you're going to have a total
review of the tax system then capital gains would be one issue,
obviously, that would be involved in that debate. But what
Mr Peacock won't face up to is the fact that the. Liberal Party
says that in any total review of the tax system from their point
of view a capital gains tax would be inevitable. Could I Just read
to your listeners, Bob, what was in The Australian newspaper of
the 20th of August. And it refers to the " federal Liberal Party
was told yesterday by its economy committee that it Must immediately
release a new and imaginative taxation package" and goes on, " the
committee said the long-term Liberal taxation strategy should be
based on a total overhaul of the taxation system". And it then
said, " it would be inevitable, the committee said, that a Liberal
Government would have to look at a capital gains tax in some form
as part of that long-term strategy". Now that's what they sEay.
It's no good Mr Peacock getting up on Monday and announcing his
tax policy and saying, " no, no, no, never a capital gains tax" ./ 8
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PM.. 8 PERTH
because if there's one thing the people of Australia know about
the Liberals and tax is you can't believe what they say. People
haven't got short memories. They remember 1977 in the election
campaign you remember it Bob the " fist full of dollars".
This was Liberal Party policy, here's our policy, there's your
fist full of dollars. People fell for that and elected the Libs.
As soon as they were back in Canberra they took the dollars and
within a short time imposed a super tax on them. So he can
say what he likes on Monday at his tax launch, but they have in
fact disclosed their hand. With the Liberals a capital gains tax
is inevitable. It's not with us. But what is the case is that
we will honestly talk with the community about it and the whole
system of tax. We want a fair tax system.
MAUMILL: I
So you're not ruling out the possibility that there'll be a
capital gains tax, but you're saying there'll be no capital
gains tax without community input to see how the if you like
the blow can be softend the most?
PM: Well see.,. and it's to be understood in that context of a
V community discussion. It's not simply to be loo'ked at as a blow
because the argument that's basically put by those who advocate a
capital gains tax isnot that it's a general, revenue-raising tax
which affects the great mass of people. It wouldn't. If it
were imposed it wouldn't affect the great mass of people becakuse,
clearly, it would not at least as far a Labor were concerned, if
it did it it wouldn't affect the family home. With the Liberals
it might. They may well say well we'll cover the family home.
MAUMILL: Are you saying quite categorically that people who have bought and
paid for over a period of time the family homejpossibly sell it,
go into something smaller a unit, when they're at retirement age...
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PM. .9 PERTH
PM: No capital gains tax.
MAUMILL: would not that wouldn't be touched by capital gains tax?
PM: Let me make it clear. I am not-. aying there will be a capital
gains tax because there's got to be the community consultation
that is about the whole tax system. But what I do say is quite
clearly to the extent that there has been thinking about this
there would be no capital gains tax on the family bome, if it's
sold and people move out of that. We can says that because there
has been some consideration of this issue. With the Liberals
you don't know in their capital gains tax what they would do.
But I wanted to make this point, Bob. A capital gains tax would
not be seen if it were to come in as a significant revenue-raiser.
And you talked about it being a blow the greatest blow that's
been imposed upon the Australian taxpayer in our history as a
nation is what was done by the Liberals and National Party
between 1976 and 1981 when they fostered the tax avoidance
industry in this country. And... I mean I... perhaps I could
Just read to you briefly, Bob?
IAUMILL: By all means. Plenty of time. Our sponsors have been kind
enough to waive all the commercials this morning. So we have
an uninterrupted run Prime Minister.
PM): Thank-you sponsors. But I'm relating this question of the
capital gains tax to whether you see it as a blow. The namf,
Commissioner Costigan is a pretty well known one isn't it?
HAUMILL: Yeah. He's done a fair bit to sort of expose those who have not
paid the tax that was their due. -3
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PM. 10 PERTH
PM: Well in December 1981, Bob. ho brought down one of his interim
reports. And this is what he had to say, he's talking of the
tax avoidance industry. This is December 1981 and, the date is
very important December ' 81 -he said: " This industry, the
tax avoidance industry, has developed in -_ Australia, particularly
over the last five years", now see, December ' 81. That's from
1976 to 1981 the years of the Liberal Party in government.
He said in that period " the industry has developed at a rate
far in excess of any other industry and has brought with it
profits comparable only to the heady days of the Victorian goldrush."
And he said, Bob, " the amounts involved are very large indeed
amounting to many hundreds of millions of dollars per year or
more." And he went on to say that that had involved a protection
of a very wealthy minority and it meant that the ordinary, honest,
average law-abiding taxpayer had had to cope the burden.
MAUMILL: You're saying that the Fraser/ Howard years were the halcyon ( lays?
PM:
The halcyon days of the tax avoidance industry. The fastest
growing industry in Australia. Now coming back to your capital
gains tax and whether it's a blow or not. What many people argue,
Bob, is that the most important role of a capital gains tax is as
part of the armoury against tax avoidance, not that it would be a
tax that would be imposed on the ordinary, average citizen. Because
they wouldn't be in a situation where it; would attract it. ] 3ut
the absence of a capital gains tax, it's argued, has been
sigfiificant in the growth of the tax avoidance industry. So when
we have the community discussion after the election about getting
a fair tax system that means that the ordinary people get a fair
go and we have an efficient tax system it's in that context that
a capital gains tax would be argued. Arid, of course, I suppose
it's not surprising that your Peacocks and your ilowards, who
were ministers in that period right through that period 176 to
' 81 which allowed the growth o1' the tax industry which cost I/ j1
PM.. 11 PERTH
you and your listeners the ordinary law abiding people
hundreds of millions of-dollars a year with the absence of a
capital gains tax. it's not surprising I suppose as they protected
the tax avoiders in that period and have continued to do it in
Opposition, that they might still be talking and saying a capital
gains tax is a bad thing. Now I'm simply saying I haven't got
a commitment to this position, but what I believe 99 per cent of
the Australian community has got a commitment to, is getting a
fair and equitable and efficient tax system and within that they
will want to have a look at all the element which are necessary
to get fairness and equity.
PERTH
PM4 12
MAUM IJ L " I don't think anyone in the Australian community
would be opposed to a tax, that tax windfall profits
that taxed speculators who through inside knowledge
or more than a litle sharp business practi~ ce or
if you like, business nous, suddenly without the u-se
of labour or input, suddenly have several million
dollars or hundreds of thousands of tax free dollare
dropped in their lap.
I-think most people in the broader Australian community
would support the idea-* of taxing that kind of windfall
profit. What I believe most people are opposed to
is a tax that taxes those people who have over many
many years strived to build up a cap~ tal base, and
when they go into the years of their life when they
want to sit baick and enjoy it, suddenly, they'vo said,
along com~ es the taxman and says we're going to take
a bit of it..
Now, you're saying that that as far as you can see
those people will, and their assets will be protccted.
I've got to a~ k you, in this discussion that will
take place on revam-ping our tax eystem, who'll be
involved? Will it sort of be a taxation summnit
rneeting?"
HAWKE " well, we,* could I just pick up the first part of
what yolu said and then come to the latter part of
the questilh, Bob, the question of whether there
should bo a tax upon windfall or speculative gains,
of course, it's a very good point you make because
what people don't, alot of people don't recognise
is that there is in existence now, and has been for
sometime, a Capital Gains Tax on those sorts of
things. if a person: -ir deliberatu-ly in the business of buying
and 60) ling for the purpose mnaking an income in that
way, then that attracts tax on& that capital gain.
If a person does that sort.. of thing also deliberately
within a period of less than a otated time in the
legislation, it's there, so ther. e is a aapita] gafns
tax in the system at the moment to ca-tch that cort
of thing, and thlat's; why I say, I'm not going to
say that there will be some additional capital gains
tax, because it may well be you see, that what is
there in the system now together with other changas
to create a fail-er tax system may be eniough,
But there i~ q a capital gains tax thero no, in one
seCnse. It's argued perhaps that to ai~ st in the
fight against tax avoidance, there~ may be a nead for
something further.
But going to the next point that was involved in what
you're saying, of course, the ordinary peroon who
buys a homne and that, through tim~ e improvee in valucp
that person would never attroot a capital oainf vs~ y
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IPM 13PERTH
in two situations WhiCh would cover for them
the 100% OituatiOr i f they stay inl their home
and they never realise, niever sell, Then by
definition therc is 110 caPital gains tax,
Capital gains tax wouild only, in any eystem anywhere,
operate it the person % 4-olcs got the aisset
actually realises it and rsells it."
t4AUMILL :" But they might
HiAWK~ E; i " Yeah, but the more imPOr7tant SitUations you're
concrie about.,.. what if they move from their
home, they sell it to -go and settle somewhere
else, capital gains tax does not apply to the disposal
of your family home."
MAUMILL i " And it won'* t apply under a H~ awke government?"
HAW~ KE " if there is any addition, if we db have a capital
gains tax beyond what's there in the system now,
and I'Ive 5ot to Pay if'I because you can't say we I're
going to have et., commvunity public ditcussiom aboit.
this thing, ?. ind' allow the whole thing to be tosoed
around and ina advance, say I'm corry there can't
be a discusaion about this; bcaufe I've made up my
mind on it.
But I'm 133, y in~ i in answer to your question, if there
Were to be sorne extended form of capital gains tax,
It would never cover the domestic--Zamily home, vwhich
m~ eans that the great mass of Australians would not
be adversely affected. blut vihere they could be
very beneficially affected, it is argu~ ed, where
4, the great Mass of Australians could be helped, is
where they've been hit in the past; by theu Liberals.
The ordinary taxpayer, the ordinary person listening
to this-program has paid over the years of the
Liberal and National Paorty Government, they have
paid hundreds of dollars more in tax, Bob, because
of tile tax avoidance industry which has beon protected
by Mr. Peacock ahd Mr. HIoward.
N~ ow, it is arguod that vie could eliminate totally tile
tax avoidance industry if there was a capital gains
tax. 5ystem there which prevented those who have
avoided rn-' eting their income tax. obligations by going
( 1on the capital approciation route..
Now, ao far au your ordinary li1stener is concerned,
they shouldn't be worried therefore about this
situation, it may offer them some! additional form of
protection."
" Prime minister, the other curly one of course
iS aboriginal land rights. Here In Western
Auotralia the Burke Covernrnent has been applauded
In the editorials of our more conservative
newspapers for the stance that they've taken on
the ' quez.-: ior of aboriginal land rights..
Brian B~ urke hau been forced to walkf to tread a
ve~ ry dif ficul t path, he and. hi. s. CabA met seem to
have come up with a proposal th~ at Is acceptable
to most people that held fears about the coming
of aboriginal land rights, but at the same time
they haven't walked away from the issue.
They've taken. alot of the wind out of the sails
of the Opposition over here who seem to be the only
ones at present who nre dissenting from wThat Brian
Burke's clone. But they're now saying that anything
that the Burke Government does in the area of
aboriginal land rights can of course be ruled out
by federal legislation that will apply.
So, what they're really eaying is although Burkie
has done a pretty good job of ( grasping the nettle
and not getting his hands stun( 4 andl of course satisf:
to scrne dogree most parties, Bob Hawko's going to
wreck. all his good work. Is tLhat the case?"
, I s girt is not the case and it's just another measure
of the hopelessness of the Liberal Opposition here
and federally. They ruined this country irl the
period until the beginning of 1983 by creating
ctivJsivcness, of seoking del. 1berately to creato
confrontatiovism, division within Australia.
Thtat's brought Auj3tralia to kts. knees and why
Amotraliant are now I'n the positiob at the end of
1984 Of h-EVing a much hotter economy, a Much belater
DCUOioY IS because we nre healers of division,
not the creators. Of confrontation and to their
great disappoinitment, I have to Day to then, that
0gain they are fanning the firei; of confrontotion
-ruiesly, I have been in full consultation With
Mr. Burke before I came over her-e and since I've been
hore and within a Matter of an hour or so there will
bo a press conference at which there will be released
a statement agreed between 14r. ElurI0 and myself
which indicatos thnt this nonsense w~ hich has been
pedalled by the. Opposition that vie would come in
over the top of Mr. burke is like all thoir lien
toflC emear3 and innvendo groundlesso fal: seunbnced..
-Perhaps that's cloar enough." 0./ is
PM 14'
MAUIILL:
HAWKE ~' ing
HAUMILL :" The Federal position on aboriginal land rights
then will not cut across what the Burke Government's
doing. Y'ou're saying that categorically?"
HAWKE i " I think I saiid it pretty categorically then, yes.",
MAUM IL I " Prime Minister, organised crime was the big iusue
that the opposition was running with and they ran
with it for several montho, I just can't get anyone
in the opposition now to talk about it.
I've noted that A. ndrew Peacock has studiously
almost fanatically, kept away from the subject.
I listened to him on other radio stations, and our
own racdio atation when he was in town during the week,
I listened to him on A~ M this mlorning, and I got tapes
of all his interviews on ' Various radio and tclevisioi,
stations sent to us over here, and I've looked at
the lot before I did this interview, for two weeka
now and particularly in the last seven days he has
kopt right away from thee question of organised crime,
he just doesn't went to answer quentions on it.
Would you say that ar. far as the biberals are
concerned, organised crime is an iosue that they
can't win?"
HAWKI " Well, of cours3e t's an irvue they can't win,
because they chose and again Bob) it fits in with
what I've* Just been saying, I ask you and your listeners
to cast their'rninO back, you've bc: en looking at the
way they've been conducting themselves. Over the
lost few rnontbs, have they been addressing themselves
to economic policy issues at all? No. Havo they
been questioning the economic recovery? No,
Have thoy been addreotinn themnselves, to the long term
sorts of policies that are needed for Australia,
that we've been working on to create a betLar more
secure economic future? No. What were they talking
about? Exclusively, organised crime. ' They wcrae
accuuing me, Mr. Peacock got up and went on for weeko
and 6aid I was a crook, that I associated w~ ith
criminals and. that I was directed by those who directed
criminals. Now that % Yns hia charge, his concept oZ his
reoponsibility to the people of Aortralia that aa
Leader of the Oppooition to concentrate on issues
Was to say that'a the is& Ue. That's what he talked
about. I said alright when we got back to
Parlianicnt now come on, hore you are you've got the
K Parliament, the gull protection of Parlianientary
p3rivilege, come on. put it outL. And he was ex~ posed
in f'ront of the whole og Australia for wrhat he Is,
a m1an who will engage in a lying technique og-amears
and innuendo, creating falseh1oods and then when
given the opportunity not 9acing up to it.
tNow he has damaged himtselfi you rightlY identifynow,
that having been exposed as fraildulent
in his charges# not being able to bach them because
of course he can't, then he's walked 4ay from it
but he cannot walk away from It in the judgement of
the Australian people.
What faith ic& the ordinary Australian man and1 woman~
going to have in *' Leader of the Opposit ion who
aspires. to the office of Prime Minister, who abuse&.
the intelligence of the average voter by saying to
you Mr. Mrs. Australia, I'm going to get up in
the Parliament and go round Australia saying these
thinge about the Priime Minister, saying these things
about organised crime, that the Prime Minister woul. d
protect criminals, that's the judgement I the
Leader of the Opposition, make. about your intelligence.
I'll do all thee things, I'll say all these thin'ga
then I crawl away. Now what is the voter going to
0ay about that person?~ They won't makie him Prime
Minlister and hii, Party won't leave him Leader of the
Opposition."
MAU14ILL HAWKE: " The National Crimes Authority has taken over much
of the work that the COStigarL Royal Cornnission was
doing. Are you satisfied'that the lWational Crimes
Authority's got enough teeth and can you give us
some ideai how it Will operate?"
" Yes I can. ' But perhaps from t'he Point of view of
your listeners Bob w'hat is even more important
than ' the Cact that I'm satisfid is perhops the fact
that the members of the 1National Crime Authority
are ontisfied. I just remind you ogf the composition
of the National Crimes Authority.
The chairman of it Mr. Justice Stewart, w; ho is
univernally recognised aa the moot experiencod
gighter of organised crime in this country and
Indeed, the opposition in the debate in the
Porlirncnt ackncwledged his integrity, his
cormpetencet his capacity, so he's the Chairman.
Tha other two men ) era and we appointed him, and
the other two mcmbers have, we gave two, names
oursolves but they then have to be endorse( 3 by
all the State GoVernmonts an( I the N~ orthern Territory
Governmonts. T'he other tuo -unanimously endorsed.
N~ ow the U. rst fir. Man, finqham, previously Dleputy
Tibara'l Premier of Tevmania, QC and Mr. DwyerOC,
front N. elbourna. Those two unanimously ondorocd
by all Lhe Covornments, Labor and non-Labor ao I
haive tha three of than Mr,. Stewart., N&-. Bi nghawp~
( lr. Dwyer in my office, the Prime hiniioter's 0ffico
Ld1
in Carberra and I directly asked do you need any
more powars, do you want me to give you any more
powers? No. We're satisfied with what we've got.
Second question. Do you believe they'll be adequate
for you to do your job? Answer Yes.
Now there you have it, They are constituted under
the law of the Commionwealth zind importantly
CongtituLed in a way which carries with it the full
c-peration of the States ofutria
You can't havea an effective Crime Authority operating
in AUstrolia if i-t simply imposed from Can~ berra and
you've got conflict with the sfates. What we've done
is to create a sitiuation Where those in it, these
experienne3 people sy'wecve got adequate powers and
we'va got the co-opcration of the States, now their
job will be in the immeiato sense, they will have
handed over to them all the work of the Costigan
Corsxnission, so that they can study that and they
con make recommendat ions to the inter-governmental
conmrittee as to what the references should be for
them on which to procced,
Not only do they have the actual work of the Costiqan
Corisujon handed over to them, bVit all of the
facilitics, the computer facilities, all the data
base of the Costigan Ccmmission, the specialists
Involved in the work~ of the Costigan Commnission, all.
go over to the National Crim~ e Authority."
( 4AUM LL t " Now you're saying that the people go over too?"
1LAWK13 i " Tho people go over, the data baoe, the systemts,
all go over from Costigan to the National crime~
Authority, similarly, aal that material, data base
from M'r. Stewart's own Royal Ct), miosion goes vver
to the National Crime Authority.
Do they've got nll that experience, all the people
till. the material, they will no1a perceive the difference
betwcen the National Crime Authority and the R~ oyal
CommicsfonG3 and this involves no reflection upon the
Roycil Commiscions but the Royal Commissioic do not
have the job of svterblying hard admxissable evidence
for prooOQutions, Novi this is what the National
Crime Authority will do, and will move now; to the
important tank of starting to get those major criminalD
w-. here they belong and that's behind bars."
L4AUMI! LL :" Prime LMinlater, enough of the tough questiono~ lotla
get on to come of the lighater oner). I XiIh L-le tiay
Bill1 Hayden's handling himself and I'm sura that most
Australians do withi exception of David McNichol of
The Bulletin who uays he's. a iatr
Bill Hayden scems to have grown in stature, to a
m~ ore confident, tougher B~ ill Hayden, he waihn the
V / 21n
PM 18
. HAWKE~ Fts~ rI~ 41j a
international arena, the arena~ of international
affairs with more than a little! authority and Ws'
AOL frightcned to make Australia's feelings about
contonLious isuls well % nown,
After a scratchy start with your political relations#
you must be very very happy with his performance."
" Well, T want to say thi.<. thjit="" bill="" as="" you="" say=""> has been an outstanding Foreign Minister and I
believe that Bill1 in happier now than he's ever been
in his political career. He and I went throuagh a
period of trauma and I'd be quite silly to deny that
of couroa and he was hurt and disappointed, but I
must say from the time I've asoumed the Leadership
of the Party, Bill and 1-Iarticu , arly once wo came
into govornmant, as Minititer for Foreign Affairs,-
Bill has been in constant co~ unication with me
his first visiE overscaos in Apr: il of 1983 when he
went to Indones~ ia and wit to talk not only with the
Xndoncsians but to tnke up the whole problem of this
area of Xnclo-China and our relatlonshipa with the
Ase~ n. oLates, I put to him my vi~ ews, how I thought
Vi~ e could in faict play torm Gort of role because of
our gjood relationis with all the countries concerned
and he agreed with tha~ t, lie went on and he's viorked
on tHat basir in thot area in complate co-Qrdination
wIL1h me aS he has as lie goes into the other areac.
lie talks. Withl fme and he has as you say articulated
Australia's position. forcefully. I believe that
19 you look now, at the end of M94 at Australia's
international relationkihip5, we have without ziny
queotion a better relationship now with tho countrie~ s
of our region than has ever been the case before.
Por instance, when I caj to offico, the relationship
botucen ourselves and M'alaysia were Very very distanL,
there was a rigidity there, now I've mot flr. Nartere*
tho Prime Minister of fzAaysia wTho I think is an
outstanding man and we havv extremely cordial and
prOductive relations there.
Importantly, ;-we have wit~ h China as tm-ll, Now i n
all these things, it's b'een a constructive co-opxirativc
relonship between mys. elf an~ l B3ill Hayden.
lie's doing his.. and Lionel Bov. en oz; finistor for
Tr~ e! let me say, w-hich is at) im~ portant pcirt of yourintornationnI
relat--ion-. 1-ip. With the United Statea.,
thiv country has never had a batter rolationship with
tha United States than we have now*' That's~ not a
eelationship of sycophanicy, it'n a rclationolhip of
aonztructive, fixrm, warm alliance rolationrihip but
Oo in which if wei have aot-ao differenes~ of viety about
ptirtictilar ADL3UG01 WdJ put them."
r 4
I'm 19
HAUMILL g " For a long titne though they took Us~ for gjranted,
Would you GaY that's changed?"
HAMIE " Yes, they don't taie us for granted, now." 1
MAUIMLL t OAIJ the way with LBJ and all that." 1
HAWNE t " No it's not that.. but wiit they do recognise is
that we have a coriitment to a free democratic
Way Of lifO as the best sort of environ society
for people anYwhere in the world, to be able to
growi up in.
110 are commlitted to the free democratic Pystcm ar,
6% gainst tyrannous dictators3hips, alld it,$ that
Commitment which shared comnmitrn~ nt, which binds
the United States and Auatrakia together, flow
that doean't m~ ean that in some interpretations
of iuome issues we won't have ditforences,. but why
the relationship is so good is because the United
Statca knows that we chare. that basic coiimrent.,
It 1( 3 unquestionable and unsha~ zeable that they liscon
to uco If on somne particular issues we have a slightly
diffarent emp~ hasis and Intoerpretation ond the factu
are that thore i5 a continuous warmiclosoepersona.
co!? X'unication betwcen the Secretairy of S3tate,. Ge. orge
Schultz and riyself~ and the Preoident. of the Vnited
States 4nd ivyselg.
And that adde, to the relationahips that are created
by Bill Hlayden in his-viork as Foreign M~ inister
and Australians have very very good reason to ba
extrtly satisi -ed with what has bean done in thlo
Poriod og office by its Tmininter for Forcign Affillr
and rmysell and Lionel Dowen, the three who have the
major responsibility of cementing good relationo
with othor countries in the world."
PM.. 20 PERTH
MAUMILL: The Soviet Union is one of our big customers. The Soviet Union
buys much of what we produce. For many years they have been a
customer a customer that we have often called nasty names. How
are relationships at the moment with the Soviet Union? Are we
talking to them?
PM: Yes we talk with them. Here again what has been done is that the
Soviet Union has been left in no doubt whatsoever about our
attitudes to what they do in the area of human rights. Their
totally unjustifiable excursion into and remaining in Afghanistan,
the building up of their military presence in Vietnam very
significant building up of military presence there. Now we make
it quite clear to the Soviet Union our abhorrence of these things
but there is a responsibility in government to make the distinction
between putting on the' record and telling people what you disapprove
of, as we do unequivocably with the Soviet Union, and then
recognising that they exist, that they are a major element in the
world commerical and trading relationship. So we don't call people
names just for the sake of calling names and we have restored a
more constructive trading relationship with them, as indeed the
United States is in the process of doing. And that of course is
to the benefit of our farmers and others in Australia whose
welfare depends on being able to have access to as many markets
as you possibly can.
M AUMILL:
Prime Minister, Paul Keating when the Hawke Government first took
office looked really crook. I mean he was no good thing to last
the term. He was black under the eyes, green around the gills, had
a lot of trouble fronting up, lost weight, his suits were hanging
on him as though he was a scarecrow. I thought, well Paul Keating
is not going to see the distance. He can't cop the pressure. Now
at that time John Howard was sort of the school master of Australian
economics because he was constantly in the public eye giving forth
with opinion. Lately, during parliamentary broadcasts and
televised debates, Paul Keating has put on weight, the black .*/ 21
PM. .21 PERTH
circles have gone, the confidence has returned, he's loving the
Job and he very firmly often very caustically, some would almost
say bordering on the cruelly -put John Howard and any other
spokesman on economic matters from the other side firmly in their
place. Now, honestly has Keating's performance superb performancebeen
a surprise to you? He's always been a tough political co'okie.
PM: Well look I think you have summed it up very well. It may be a
little bit unfair of me to ask whether it has been a surprise.
But I think the honest answer is the extent of his and the speed
of his acquisition of supremacy has I think been somewhat
surprising. You are quite right, that when Bill Keating er
sorry when Bill Hayden put Paul Neating into the position of
shadow Treasurer at the beginning of -' 83 it came as a surprise
and everyone said well he's thrown Paul in the deep end. And
within a matter of just days really he was,: there in an election
campaign being the Treasurer spokesman for the Labor Party. And
then again within just a matter of weeks fie's the Treasurer. -So
he's thrown into this most complex of portfolios with just a
matter of weeks in the shadow position with no formal training in the
past in economics and financial matters, ftlthoug-h as shadow Minister
for Minerals and Energy impinging in many areas; and it was clear
in those early days that he was battling. And he recognised that.
But I had confidence in his ability because he is a very intel ligent
mhan and a hard working man. I knew lie would get there. But yes,
frankly I was surprised with the speed-with which, and the
comprehensiveness with which) he mastered that intricate portfolio.
I just saw him day by day grow in confidence and capacity. It was
said in those early days that he was a creature of John Stone and
the Treasury and there were some very cruel cartoons you remember.
But no one draws those anymore. Let me say this. Keating lasted
the course, one other gentleman didn't.
MAUMILL: Yes, riell John Stone's having an awful lot to say now. Do you see
him as a future Liberal politician?
PM. .22 PERTH
PM: The Liberals would run a mile from him. Well some of the Liberals
would. MAUMILL: He almost sounds as though he's running for office.
PM: Ye8s. Of course, in the latter days of.. his* Treasurership, Mr Howard
wasn't really talking with Mr Stone. They used to conduct their
' communications by correspondence. I don't think John Howard would
be welcoming John Stone. But look I think this is a democracy.
I observe that there is this hypocracy involved. Mr. Stone was
the one when he was a public servant who talked about the standards,
and the integrity, the apolitical nature of the public servant and
so on. Well, you know, he's seemed to forget that in his latter
days. But that doesn't worry me, I mean I'm not concerned about
it. This is a democracy. If Mr Stone wants to engage in his
observations let him do so. I would just en passant make t; he
observation that I don't know what Mr Stone thinks gives hi~ m any
right to be talking with any_ degree of authority about the Age
tapes for instance. I mean Senator Evans and his rejoinder
exposed the complete inadequacy of M. r Stone's knowledge or
competence in that area. But if John Stone wants to talk in this
environment, let him talk. I mean I think the reaction of' the
editorials have been pretty telling. They've made it clear what
they think about his contribution.
MAUMILL: Almost cruel.
PMU:
Well, almost cruel but if John would like after the election to
formally get into the political process, I don't think ho'd be
applying to the Labor Party for membership. But he can if he
wants to, you know, I think he'd hdv'e a pretty slow pr ogress
through the ranks. He could try the Liberal Party.-./ 23
PM. .2 3 PERTH
MAUMILL: Held have a lot of trouble getting it seconded.
PM: Well no, no, look we're on a very serious subject. He could try
the Liberal Party, but Johnny Howard would be very, very, very
opposed to that. I mean he'd be getting around thea branch and
saying, " wht' this? We can't have this happening." Now he
could try the National Party. Now that would be an interesting
alliance, but he. of course some of the most vitriolic attacks
that Mr Stone has made in the past upon political people is on
the National Party so I don't think he'd get in there. So
what does that leave? Well, perhaps there could be something
in this story about after the eclipse of the Liberals in this
next election that there's going to be a move for a new conservative
force in-Australian politics. Now we might see a new party. Now
who could it have? It could have John Stone, have Sir Joh. Who
else could it have?
MAUHILL: Porter, from Queensland?
PM: Oh yeah and I don't know whether Mr Hassell, he might, he might
cause he's pretty conservative they tell ine you might have this
group. Now it would be a question of who would be leader. Would
it be John Stone, or J ! oh Petersen, or, or M~ r Hassell. It could
be interesting couldn't it? But if John would like to do that
to get into politics I would welcome it.
P": ( Laughter) Prime Minister I listen to parliamentary debates and
obviously one of you most rewarding moments of late has been the
return of Mick Young to your side on the front bench.
PM. .24 PERTH
MAUMILL: And who'll ever forget. Mick Young's telling retort to Ian Sinclair
when Mick Young held up in Parliament the results of the investigation
into his alleged customs misdemeanour and said to Ian Sinclair:
" Ian, you'd give your right arm to have a report like that."
PM:
Report like that!
HAUMILL: And what's more, " Ian, I didn't sign this myself!" which was a
reference to certain police investigations in the past. Is Mick
accident prone, or is hie just a good bloke who tries to do the
right thing and just doesn't pay attention to detail?
PM4: Well Hick is overwhelmingly a good bloke. In the first episod~ e
it was a situation where in good faith and without any intention
of harming the national security he was trying to help a friend.
He admitted he was wrong. And he paid a penalty for that. And
he didn't attempt to excuse what he'd done.
MAUMILL: Doesn't run away from it does he?
PM:
No he didn't run away from it. Now he paid a penalty and he.' s
back i~ n now with the Paddington Bear Affair. Now this was another
classic case of the tactics of the Opposition. And before I go
to those tactics just let me remind you of the difference between
how we approach this matter and how earlier, wvhen the Opposition
wiere in Government with the affair involving two ministers I
don't name them because I don't want to rub anything into their
names,. or
MUWAILL: And the colour television.
PM. .25 PERTH
PM: Yeah well that's what I'm talking about. But I don't want to
mention the names. I simply make the point that that happened,
the incident happened in October, and it was covered up and it
came out, not by their volition, but it came out six months l. ater
in April. Now as distinct from that here! in this case, when ' the
Minister for Customs, John Button, brought to my attention and
I think it was the fifth of July as I recall -that there was
this problem, I said well make sure that tie normal investigations
proceed. No special treatment. And that was the attitude of
John Button himself. And so that went on. And on the twentieth
of July the final report from the Controller-General of Customs
was given to Mr Button, And the Controller-General said, well
as far as he was concerned everything was okay. I said to Senator
Button: " Are you satisfied?" He said yes and I said: " Well I
am." 1 And I said: " Now that that's solved "( inaudiblc) I aid to Mick~" you makde
public. " Hle said sure okay and he went in and it was put out -to
the public. No attempt to hide it. There it was. Volunteered
out on the table. So this was the great issue for the great issue
for the Liberals and the National Party. These people who had set
their standards of covering things up that this was the big
issue. Now what happened? We had the inquiry when it looked as
though there was some other element that we perhaps hadn't considered.
Had the inquiry. The Black inquiry. There it was. And as Uick
Young said, a total exoneration.-complete. As he said to
Mr Sinclair, " wouldn't you give your right arm for a report like
that?" So that's the tactics of the Opposition wiltl seek to
latch on to these miserable things, But again, do you hear them
talking about it now?
UiUMILL:
Prime Minister have you got any good news for Australians? What's
coming up that's good?
I think there's a lot that's coming up that's good. And it's
PM.. 26 PERTH
built upon what's happened in the last period since the beginning
of ' 83. As I say Australia can be proud of the fact that in this
last period we've had the highest rate of economic growth in the
world. Under a Treasurer who's got the accolade now of the world's
number one finance minister. Now the projections for the rest of
this financial year are strong. There's going to be continued
strong growth. I promised Australia, you remember in February of
' 83, that we would create 500 000 new jobs. in three years. We're
ahead of target and employment growth will go on in this period
ahead. We'll get that 500 000 jobs in the first three years.
There will be gradually rising standards of living. There will
be a continuation of industrial peace. We've had the lowest level
of industrial disputes for the last 15 years. That will continue.
In the business community there will be significant deregulation
in the whole area of business, as we have deregulated the financial
community. The Australian people in business and in their personal
affairs will have now available to them in 1985 a much larger more
competitive banking framework. We'll have banks in from overseas
who will services to offer and approaches which will be far more
imaginative than the old existing few Australian banks that we've
had here. So that's going to make it better for individuals and
for business. . We will, and I say this particularly for Western
Australians, that the relationship with China is developing rapidly
for the benefit of Australia and for the benefit of China. We
now, as you know, will have a new iron ore mine developed in
Western Australia the Channar deposit with the Chinese.
That's the first new iron ore mine for years and years and
years. That's going to create more jobs and there's the
distinct likelihood that there'll be further developments
affecting Western Australia involving the Chinese. So these
things are good. Most importantly it will continue to be good
because the basis that we established last year for these things
is there. That is, we've effected a national reconciliation.
We've asked Australians to put Australia first and. that's the secret.
And I say I want the trade unions, I want businesses, State government,:
local government, and ourselves before we make decisions or adopt
attitudes ask ourselves what's best for Australia. If we do . tt
o
PM.. 27 PER~ TH
we'll continue to grow and we'll do what Australia's been doing
in the last couple-of years it's winning again and will
continue to do that.
MAUM ILL:
Prime Minister I've got an interest in Fremantle. That's my
town. That's where I'm from.
PM: Yep.
MAUM ILL:
I'm giving some consideration to running for Mayor of Fremantle
now that the best mayor the place has ever had, Bill McKenzie,
has taken an important job. And I've put my name forward as
mayor. PM: Have you!
U4AU MI LL
So naturally I'm interested on behalf of all Fremnantle residentAs
to know if you'll give us a hand financially during the America ' s
Cup period? .428
pn28
HAWKE MJWMILL HAMt 14AUMILL: ' We've ma~ de $ 30m. available, Bob and we've put it up
front becauce we recogn~ se that we, as the Federal
Government, have got responsibility irn this m~ atter,
So firstly, put the money up, secondly, I've created
I've 4ppo. inted John Dawkins as the Minister to
represent us in a committee between the Federal
Government and the State Government and the City of
Promantle to co-ordinate activities so yes, rrernantle
can be assured of total support from the Federal
Government because I believe the defence of the
Amierica's Cup iD going to be great for Pr'm'antle,
great for Western Australia, great for Australia.
Ahnd I don't use words loosely, I mean the money that's
going to pour into this country, the employment that'sG
going to ba created by these tens of thousands of
visitors is marvellous.
Our responsibility is to make sure, Bobo that this
happens in a way which-, is going to provide lasting
benefits to the people of the area. We don It want
the citizens of F'remantle just. to be the vict~ ims of
some transient passing thing, we~ went the davelopments
that are created to deal with this challenge ' to be
of lasting bonefit, to the citizens of Fremantle.
I beliove it will be."
" Prime Mi4nirter, you've givc-n us plenty of yomr ' time
but there xt>; one more question,"
" Why the hell aire vie he3vinc thsbod l ion? n
" Well, good question. And tho ankswer is very simple.
Tihe Libe~ rals and The National Party at the beginning
of 190J3 called on an early election witD a double
Gissolution of both nouses of Parliam~ ent, now that
threw the whole question of elections omt of kilter.
Because under the constitution, I'vo had to call,
I would have had to cDIl an election for half the
Senate by April, noxt April, you just have * to do
that, holf the Senate. Now if I'd just done that
and thon caid vo'll let the H-ouce of Representatives
run on, it woujld hoave meant that in a relatively
* hort time after that I then wolild have had to havo
a H~ ouse of Reprosorntativos election. Dut what I've
done, these things, nnd I think that evory one of
yjour listoners uill underan it, I'vo sa3. W crights
we'll do for the tv.-nty-third. Uie what'c boon the
normal thiog in thc pact irc to havo the !' ouse og
noprosntativea an"" thc half! Scoate clection together,
' 11lhla vc ' it nou Gind thzit ri art that if the peoplo
Poau tho rfocErcnum which I Ilut for !; FU~ tCncouD
elections, tic will fievor again hnvo the aitu~ ttio> n
PM 29 of Pririe ministera calling extra electione.
we will sava the people of Australia $ 19m. by
having the two together rather than two separate
ones and that's the reason."
N'AUHILL Primne Plinister, just before you go and your otaff
now are saying that you've odot to get on to your
next appointment.
You said before that there would be discussions
within the community about a re-vamped-taxation
system, and I'd applaud that, I said who'd bc
involved in such discussions. Do you envisage
a taxation suflmit, simlalr to-the economic sumits:
that you held before where people such as the
Australian Taxpayer's Associatlon, the various
Treasurers from State Governments, yourself, Pail
Keating9, l'eaders of businov3s, community groups
would bc represented, the T~ rade UnIon Movement,
would be represented at a taxation tsuiv,, it,-I mean
itle something that we have discussed off air and
you scined at that time to have something up your
zleovo about an announcemient.
W~ ould a taxation summit be possible? I think it.
would be welcomed."
HlAWKE :" It's a good idea Bob and I'll certainly give
consideration to that %-, hat we'd had in mind
tins that ue'd atart the discussions in what is,
the mini ,., ummit we'\' e set up,. under legisl. ation,
that's the economic planning advisory council
where the business co'iiunity and trade unions and
locral governmenta, State Governrientcs and welfare
ory afisations aro rcpresonted on thnt, on EPAC,
which meets regularly in the Caibinct room under
my Chairmanship.
NWv to project that back Into a'ournmit concept,
Is attractive and I'll give thovght to that,
It may viall be that as we Vot the fvrrmol dscusions
going ; within E-PAC, that it might m~ akeolcot of sense
to oxp4and that into a sumft Idea tiherc there could
be a projection of viows by repronentatives of tt. e
peoplo in a more dircct way, It's a good thoucht
and I W1l give nttantion to it."
VIAUVIILL i " Pr'. 1mc Hinister, thanks for joining us on GPR again
you havo an important press conference coming up
with otit Pronler very soon, we've run overtinte but
as usual it'e been a rivetting discusoion.
Thanks to overyone who participated today An puttin~ g
the piroggri together and look fork-. cir to ocvircg
1 ob Ha,. A1, o round as our Prime Hiinioter fox somie tim3
to cor,-Tihat is a personal view, not necessarily
the view of the stati'on and tht Board of Directors."
IfAI( ll: N aughs).... well thanks 8ob, I hnve this press
0
~. 1
PM but cortainly at the pross conference there will
t* a statement reflecting the discussions that
Brian and I have had, but to you, thank you very
rhuch, it's QXways enjoyable to talk with yo., to
respond to your questions and I thank you for your
personal indication of support and you never know
we might have a chance with the Board on the station
as well,"
MAUM ILL ( laughs) Thanhs Prime minister.
You've been listening to Bob Hawnill talking to
the Pritne tnister of Aurtralia, fir. Bob Hawke,
41