PRIME MINISTER
E. O. E PROOF ONLY
MICHAEL SCHILDBERGER 3LO 8.30 AM, TUESDAY 9 OCTOBER 1984
PM Good morning Michael
Well you've done it. Decdetber 1
PM Yes Michael, well it shouldn't come as a surprise, I made
it clear that I would make the announcement as soon as I made up
my mind. I made up my mind finally during last week, I wanted to
wait until the return of the Governor General, Sir Ninian Stevens
he returned yesterday afternoon he was gracious enough to agree to
meet me an hour after he returned, he acceded to my request znd
I immediately announced at the House. Thats the sort of att. tude
that I made clear would be adopted and I have done what I said I
would do.
MS You could have let him ux" pack his bags.
PM Oh well he has people to do that, he had been contacted
by phone earlier in the day, so he wasn't entirely surprised when
he was told that I ianted to see ' him.
MS Will you ask Neville Wran to keep a lower profile than
usual in this campaign?
PM I will not and let me make it clear at the outset, I am not
going to be one of those in Australian politics who engages either
directly or indirectly in this smear and innuendo and guilt by
association tactic and I would hive thought that those engagiad in
or commentating on politics should have learnt their lesson in recent:
weeks that that sort of tactic doesn't pay dividends. Mr Wran will
as far as I am concerned adopt te same sort of role as he did last
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time. He will introduce me at the official launching of the campaign
and then he will get on with the business of running the state of
NSW, I and those around me will get on with the business of running
the Federal campaign.
MS Now I know it is up to the Senate to make its own decisions
but will you want it to continue with the enquiry into Mr Justice
Murphy? PM Well thats its business, there are conflicting legal opinions
about the Senate and its Committees once an election is called. I'm
not intervening in that, thats a iatter for decision by the Senate.
MS Sen. Button said on this programme yesterday, he thought the
remark by Neville Wran in regard to Clarrie Briese to have been
unfortunate, do you agree?
PM Well that's a fair comment, I however have been concerned to
avoid what people have tried to do to latch onto that comment in
respect of which there can be judoements as to its appropriateness
The people have tried to take that comment and then broaden it into
some comment about Mr Wran's integrity generally. That's what I'm
not going to have a bar of. I accept 4'-the arguments as to whether
it was wise or not wise to say it. But what I was concerned to do
is that to say and to say operily to the Australian people I
have not had one single piece of ? vidence since I have been Prime
Minister which goes to the integrity, the honesty of Mr Wran and util
unless and I don't expect to get tt. But until and unless yepttiuch
evidence I am not going to be involved in any way, directly or indirectly
in character assasinations. This: country is paying to high a price
already for the emergence from a 4esperate Opposition of those tactics.
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I am going to do my best to discourage it as a feature of Australian
Political life.
14 S Did you tell Neville Wran that perhaps he shouldn't have
made that remark about Clarrie Briese?
PM4 I haven't spoken to Nevilie Wran since he made his comment.
MS I thought you had about the fact that you supported him. I
thought you had a discussion withy him. That was reported.
PM You asked me if I had spoken to him since he made this
comment?
MS YES, That is what I am reterring to.* You haven't?
PM Well how many times do I have to tell, you? I haven't spoken
to him since he made that comment'l
MS Well I accept that, its just that I heard a report....
PM You're a bit slow taking the point, 3: said it quito'clearly
Michael that and I would have thought it would have saved a lot
of time if I didn't have to say something clearly more than once.
MS Prime Minister, Sen Button also said an enquiry into majortax
changes would get under way n~ xt year, but then its possible
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you might introduce say a new caoital gains tax, death duties# or
even VAT. Would you rule any of them out?
PM I would think that the ' in the wealth tax area, thats
unlikely. Let me make it clear that what Sen Button said was merelly
saying what's been said many times over the last few months and that
is that, and its common ground beirween our opposition and ourselves
that there needs to be a wide ran~ ing review of? the tax system In
Australia. No-one, no-one in poli. tics or in economic or financt.
analysis would suggest that we haVe got the perfect tax system. What
distinguishes. the opposition fromnus of course is two'things, we
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will be doing it and not them, but secondly that we believe in the,
processes of consultation and cooperation and seeking consensus,
I've already started that over a period of several months and the
Economic Planning Advisory Council, talking with the representatives
of business, trade unions, welfare organisations to see if we can
work our way towards some sort of general agreement about the new
thrust that ought to be adopted but I am going to widen that approach
after the election, we won't just do it though EPAC we'll try and
talk through the community as widely as we can and see what the
community believes is the best way for individuals and groups and
companies to pay some portion of their resources to government so
that government on behalf of the community can deliver the sorts
of services, in defence ande s8 iat the community wants. Now
that's essentially what taxation reform should be about. To try and
get the community to say this is how we want our resources in part to .
go to government, so that you, golernment can do the sorts of things
that we the community want. Now that will be a long and thoroughgoing
process. As I say, we will be distinguished from our opponents
by not seeking to impose change but to develop a consensus about
desirable change.
MS'.... When you say thats a long process, do anticipate that there
will be some results next year? In other words would you begin
making changes?
PM all those processes of consultation and trying to get
community consensus would enable the thing to be finalised next
year, I'm not sure. r. 1
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MS Taking a couple of particulars, I mean you have spoken
in the past about extending the capital gains tax. Do you
still hold that view?
PM I said that I believe that the capital gains tax could be
part, would probably be part of an overall tax system in the same
way as the Liberal Party has said" it in their official pronouncements
recently, of their Economic Commi4tee Report in the press recently
from New South Wales, saying the ame thing. But I'm not opening
or closing options at this stage, , any more than the Liberal Party
would I think, There is a whole range of issues that should be
looked at, the capital gains tax is not something that you say,
yes, we want a capital gains tax, ' you have to ask is it a part of
an attempt to stamp out tax avoidance. One of the arguments that is
used by many commentators in favour of a capital gains tax is that.
the absence of a capital gains tac is one of the reasons why tax
avoidance has been so rampant until we started effectively to move
in many directions. While you haven't got a capital gains tax,
some commentators will argue, it will always offer one avenue of
tax avoidance. But to talk about capital gains tax and just to
say it doesn't really convey anything. For instance, in any capital
gains tax the family home is nevet includeO, you have got to take
account of inflation, you've got o take into account losses offsetting
gains, so there is a whole lot oi things that you would want the
community generally to be talking' about, when we are looking at
taxation reform, including whethet they want that sort of element
in a comprehensive tax system.
MS Does this mean though tha you'll be going into this election
without being able to spell out the specifics in the tax area?
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PM On the contrary, I'll be 4aying to the people what I have
been saying all along the very specific thing that we'll be
going to the community, we'll be involving them in an analysis of
of tax. If on the contrary the, our opponents want to say that they
are not going to consult the comm4nity that they have their reports
which, for instance, say that the capital gains tax is an inevitable
part of tax change and they are just going to use their back room
boys to say yes this this this and this... well they can say
that if they like.
MS Yes but doesn't it really mean though that we'll be going into
the election not really knowing what you'll be doing straight after
the election in that area. Other rhan seeking our view.
PM Well, yes, and I'll have he record on my side because in
February and March of last year I said to the Australian People
we don't believe that we have got all wisdom I'll be calling the
people of Australia together and their representatives to join with
us in trying to work out what is the best way to go. The Australian
people put their trust in me and that aproach and its worked, because
we've moved this economy around from being zero growth to being the
fastest growing economy in the world. Its not just because we have
into
good ideas, we took the Australian people 4A our confidence and
joined them with us in the policy making approach. So when I say
that this time I will be on a very, very good record.
MS Do you plan another economic summit soon after the election?
PM I haven't got an economic summit as such specifically in mind.
What I have got in mind is to continue the process of consultation
not merely through the Economic Planning Advisory Council which
is, if you like a mini summit concept, on a statutory basis with
business, large and small, the trade unions, local government
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state government, welfare organisations, farmers represented on
EPAC will be continuing the consultation there, but I will try to
widen that out further to bring a$ much of the community into the
discussion on this matter as I possibly can. You see it seems to
be implicit in your question thatipeople don't like that sort of
approach.. MS No, not at all. Why would you get that impression?
PM You play the tape
MS Well thats not my f'm asking you if you are going to
have another economic summit?
PM Well to go to the election with the people not knowing what
you are going to do, as though thats something not proper....
MS Oh right. The prices ncomes accord is to be renegotiated
In what areas do you expect changq?
I don't see any substantial changes involved that make sense
for people to review a working arrangement, but I think that the
prices and incomes accordø hich the business community also regard
itself as part now, and I want to pay great tribute to the organised
business community because they were, If you like confronted in
February, March of last year with an accord that had been worked out
between the then Labor Party in Opposition and the Trade Union Movement.
They came into the summit and they said, well now we regard ourselves
as partners in this approach and r give them very very great tribute
for that. So any if you like, reviewing of the working of the prices
and incomes accord will not simply' be with the Trade Union Movement
it will be with the business community as well.
MS Prime Minister, you talk o your successes understandably,
particularly the improvement in the economy and the feeling of
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consensus PM I'm sorry I don't want to be rude but, I, I really do
want to emphasise that it is just'my successes, or the governments
I'm not just engaging in rhetorics, because you'll recall that
I said
MS I'm not disputing it
PM No, no, but I really do want you to understand that I've said
that all the question of economic recovery and growth depends on
the first thing national reconciliation. Thats where tribute has got
to be paid, not just to government, but to the people themselves,
through their organisations. Its our success not my success.
MS Well obviously it has got to be seen partly as yours and
the question that I was leading uO to why we talk of your successes,
what do you see as you major mist kes in your first term as Prime
Minister? PM Well I think on the question of the assets test I deliberately
came out and said, well look we noed to do this differently because
this was something new in its approach, and in the first concept we
tried to get an over-all value which included people's houses. Now
the more I looked at that, the more I could see that that wasn't
right that you had to exclude the home and I didn't then try and
do what a lot of politicians do s4y oh well because I made this
decision in the first place, its right, I conceded that that was not
the right approach and the home s ould be excluded.
MS You presumably, would not like to relive the Coombe affair
either? PM Well, what I would not wart to relive is circumstances which
made it necessary but look, there . you have got some implication that
I would have done that differently. I do not count that as a mistake
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I have made it quite clear that if the samne circumstances arose
and I had the benefit of hindsight that action would be the course
of action taken again. But T would hope that that would never
arise again.
MS Just finally, we have just seen and heard Ronald Reagan
tell the American People that he Pias instructed his staff to raise
matters with him in terms of their moral value for the good of the
people, never to discuss such issues in political terms is that
the way you do it?
PM I ' m not quite sure, I mean I didn't see that. Put it to
me again, that
MS He wants his staff to come up with issues purely for their,
moral value and for the good of the people and disregard or disecount
and doesn't want to hear about the political difficulties that inight
occur or otherwise.
PM Mmb well I just don't quiti:-understand this aparent clear
* dividing line you can draw betweeh moral issues and political issues.
MS Well is it or isn't it goi. ng to win votes?
Mm
MS Is it or isn't it going to win votes? His argument is that
he-doesn't care about whether it is going to win votes as long as
its right for the people.
PM Well, if thats what you are saying then I'm one with him.
I would've thought the whole of m j career has shown that I call it
as it is. I don't wet my finger Lnd hold it up and say oh what
is this going to do? is this going to make you more popular or
less popular? I've consistently and sometimes against the advice of
those close to me taken positions even if its meant that there might
be some immediate disadvantage. PIaving said. that, all people in
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politics and political leadership' are naturally enough going to
look at issues in some sense as to whether it is going to be a
political disaster or not. I mean no-one in politics and positions
of leadership totally ignore political implications but I think
there are points in your career, where you have to deal with issues
and say well, it might be easier to go that way and people might
understand it better, but thats n9t the right thing to do. So you
do what is the right thing.
MS Are you excited about the forthcoming campaign?
PM I enjoy campaigns, yes. i
MS On Nationwide last night, you left open the possibility
of a debate with Andrew Peacock. : Australian Prime Ministers
have always shied away from such a situation.
PM Oh personally I don't worry about debating Mr Peacock, but
I must say that his behavoir has been so apalling and has fallen
from proper standards of relationship in personal terms that I have
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tO consider whether in fact I sho41d deal with him in that way.
But I have made no decision about it
MS But he is the alternate Ptime Minister.
PM Well that is not what his own party is saying the argument is
already shaping up on the non-Labor side of politics, this is an
argument between Mr Peacock and his and a series of challenges
lead by Mr Howard. Thats already very much what this campaign is seen
as in many parts of the non-laborI camp.
MS John Howard says that thatO a good tactic of yours.
PM Well all I can say is that Mr Peacock's supporters have
in the last few days fairly assidously tried to undermine Mr
Howard, so but that's their problem not mine, good luck to them..
MS Prime Minister thank you for joining me this morning and I, m
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sure we'll talk again during the ' Campaign.
PM Good Michael, its been good talking to you and I'll certainly
look forward to talking to you again.
ENDS L I