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Jb AU' 3TAL! A
P R DMi E: VIPUM S
E. O. E. PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL SCHILDBERGER, 3L0, 28/ 9/ 84
MS determine who gets your vote in. a few weeks. Thats
what the Labor Party is now doCiding although we can be pretty
sure va know what issues it will Jxa camnpaigning on and they'll be:
different from those already selected by the Liberals. The Labor
Party, will no doubt, want to bring our thinking right back to tho
successes of the economy since it has been in office. Then of
course, no political party can be; sure, at the start of a campaign,
just which way it is likely to go: There can always be an upset to
the beat laid plans ri(.-yit at the last moment. However confident,
with good reason, the Labor Party'might. be at the moment, it can
never be certain until the votes are cunted. So, no election
campaign is tak-en lightly and I presuvme, rob Hawke wldagree.
On the line from Canberra, Good morP~ ing, Prime Minister.
Good mtorning Mike.
I-S Never sure until the votop are countod, or are you super
confident that you can't lose whateve r happens
P. 1-1. No, it would ba silly to go into an election like that.
LIS ,.~ Wall novy I e-j aceonting your odds oil bet that you'll be
6 at : e
announcing an election i; hortly', so in that contex-t what arc you
hoping thñ issues will~ be?
P. M Wll 1, in a cense don't riirnd what the issue is, bccause
th'Lt government can han~ 2. e any is-mue that arices. But, I believe,
that the issue trill be, as it noxmi'ally is, the question of the
govc. rnments compoterce in handlIng the ba. sic eCOfloiniC affairc ol'
the nation.* I think that the pcoi~ le of Au-tralia will rc~ mrr1exnbsrand
re hembr starkly the inheritr~ co of M~ arch of ' 83. of k irilliort
riseo in unemployr., nt in th. p.: 7evious 12 montho. High inflation,
rucord high interect r ). tces TI-1y III see the reversal of thalk
to a position whZre Paistralja unftcr my govornment had the facrto-st
grc-yicieconoiay i,, n th. voz-l. IWi h ) g ill-ion new jobs, inflc.' ktion
hlvizV6* A, inte%-est rc-toecs~ T~ hoo: p ar--thC thingso that affeci
R* Zo 0
cont 2
ordinary people. There , Js a grea~ t tendency Michael, for people in
press galleries and radio colluferratora to get their issues and say
this is the one which we are fa& inated in writing about. You have
got to remember that Australia its made up of ordinary people out
there whose everyday lives are dominated by economic questions,
what is happening in the job znarkot. is it more likely that they
can get work, that their kids canl get work? Is the rate of price
Increase being reduced? W~ hat's happening to interest rates?
These are the things that affect rdinary people.
HS Um w i1l if the economy does become ' the issue, which presumably
it should, with what confidence wX. l1 you be able. to promise that tile
* next three years will be as good ' as the last 1.8 months?
can promise with confidence, that the economy will keep
growing significantly. The budget is based upon, again, very high
growth, in 1984-85 and that will be achieved. What we will be
able to point to of courso. is that: thes-e thingjs, in part are happening
becaus-e of certain fundam~ ental cha~ nges that are being made in the
way the economy is run. ror instce h rcsad nosacr
means that we are not having the rm. ad wages explosion which has
ruined previous recoveries. if you rerrove a bnsic cloxacnt
of economic instability then you have got reason for ascuming
that you are going to be able to c ontinue with a significant growth
inlto thlfucure.
1MS *. Well on the prices income6 accord buasiness eziployers arc
warning that while it has reduced: indusi. rial disputati. on it hasn't
been in the best longer term interest of the economy.
P. N2. Vlell some are, but overx. halmingly the business comxpuqS ty
nupports the accord. So if you iqant to say, oomeone caid that, V16-1
okay, you arc entitled to say it. But %% hat I z= Saying is that
* the ovoerwhelmiing portion of the business comm~ unity supports it.
They'd b3 out of their minds if they didn't, because, under tha
a ccord you had the restoration of ! business profitability to -the
highost levels for more than a deo : iade. That's wThy they support. it.
Do you fear though that teewill b0-more wage demands n eXt
year? For cxainplc, the ACTU has n,! 1ready foreshado-, ied productivity
claims & t the beginning of next yoar.
more
cont 3
P. M. Thats the concept of a productivity case within the
accord and within the guidelines laid down by the comzmission, But,.
the ACTU has said and the governmient has said that tie will be
approaching that on the basis of looking at the. economic capacity
tit the time and in the forseeable future. The AC'rU has conmmitted
that its not itself making a responsible claim and the government
certainly won't be supporting them. The concept of a productivity
case is part of the accord and it'is within the guid~ ines the
commission itself the arbitration commission itself said that
it expected such a case. But, th4t is-not a carte blanche for
increases that are beyond economic capacity.
MiS What do you say to the employers who will say that the
employment situation is certainly ~ irproving but it is happening in
the public sector, and you* Nwon't lie able to keep that up.
P. M. Its wrong, its not just happening in the public sector
as I presume you know. Its happening in the pr: i vate sector as well,
and increasingly will happen in the private sector; as the fruits
of investment in the private sector are implem.' ented, ire brou ;-t
to Lear, Because what you are ae eing now-. is a turn-around end
this is fundamental. You'd had de~ clines in private investment
in the last few years. Now that's turned around you are going to have
S) ignificant improvements in investment in the private Gector. That
means moro employment.
UF-Do you fezar, Prime Mi. nister, that some of the cingle iosu.-s
m ight ov,_>:_ ta1% e the campaigns? Say: assets tet say tiz-i-a
No, I do not. Obviourly there is a legitzAitc interest in
the qii-stion of assets test. There ought to be bacause w., hat is
be-ing donc is what is being reconumindnhA by people acrors the political
epectrum. Ile are making a change there, a--nd obviously in w.-ahing
changes which have been ind-Icated' as necossary, com~ e people are
intererstcd and concerned, worried.. Now, the simfle facts are, that
only about 2t of those currently getting pension: 3 will bo in any
w-ay cnffected. It means Chat the capacity of all govern~ ments into
tha future, to look zfter the grea'* t majority who arne in neod %-ill
La enhanced. I am cort-dn that, t~ e majo. rity of people will ac cPp t
moreC
cont 4
that it's silly for the gommunity to be unnecessarily paying
pensions to people who are niillio~ iaires in assets terms. That'
is an absurdity. Mr Peacock, in bppositi0fl has said it was an
absurdity, Mr Howard and don't let this be forgotten, the current
deputy leader of the Liberal Party, shadow treasurer, supports
the assets test concept. if he Bsipports it then he would have to
say, as he does support it, it is: unquestionable that he supports
it-He would have to say; well if you are going to have an assets
test how do you implement it? Int any implementation of an assets
test with which Mr Howard agrees, then there-, has got to bn a way
of doing it. N~ ow, let him. tell is how to implement the aosets
test, with which he agrees, in some other way. So you have got
Peacock, Howard, you've got Senatbr Chaney* when he was the shadow
spokesperson in this area, suppor~. ing i. You've got Mr John
Elliot of the Liberal Party in Victoria, supporting it. You'ye
got Mr Do -rner an endorsed Liberal* party candidate, speech writer
for 1Mr Peacock when* he was pocmnfor-the Australian Chzmbar
of Coimnerce concratulaiting the gov,.' : nment. X see,. when I have
pointed that out, Michael, he's cqinie cut and said,, Oh yes, but
you have got to realise that whonjI spoke ' for the Chanber of C~ ec
I didn't necesparily mean what IE Lid. Well beauty 17: 0,1
be asking Mr Pea:, cock, we'll be a,,, ing RVr Downer whenever he opcn~ s
his ri-outh does he really believe t or is he saying it becausec he
thI ks that is the right thigeosy
I-I. S But nevertc; s Andrcu Peacock has said that if the Liberals
won, that they would reve2rse it
Wel Isimtply don't b Dl~ eve that, becnuse but lcok it's
hypothtic&!, they are not: going to win.. But just putting
Into a hypothetical Lituation, I di: Lmply don't believe that, b,_ cause
IMr Peacock believes, lie has3 mada a ! cleaxt exposition wben he iiaG able
to state. the position a-lie really, saw-X it, that was when hoc vas o1..
the back bnnch in goveravannt, he & 1tat. 1. in the parliani~ nt eand at tho
Mational Press Club, that he belioved in means tested social soccrity
payziant3. There wasn't any cqWivc; cation about it. r-r Peacock state~ d
hiPea! cochc bclief that 110 bolieyved in weans testod social uwafcarcp
a yT,-vn ts. So that's, rUr Pc-acock. L-r h1ox-ard I. believer. in it, the
shadow troasurer, he bnlieves in i t. Senator Chaney, who wa thn
ahadow spokesperson, he bctiovc s i it. Youv'e got senior figures
More-
2in the liberal party and liberal drganisation they believe in it.
NOw, I siimply do not believe and tsuggest that no-one in the coun~ try
would believe that if this Labor Government did the hard work of
introducing something in which all those other people on the other
side had expressed their belief that they would refuse-it. There
is as much credibility in that ar.$ ertion by M4r Peacock, Michael
as there was in their 1977 pre-election and post election oituation.
in 1977 these Liberals who ask to'be believed now went into the
election with, you remember the ftst Lull of dollars, the tax Cuts?
As soon as they came back they ripped those tax cuts back, They
took them away. Now that's how w.% ich-you can believe in imr Peacock
and the Liberals. They give tax cuts before the election and'take
them back afterwards. They say n6w, before an election, thoy
don't believe in assets tests. If through some mischance
w( e re talking hypothosis of couro6, but if they were in govornment.
the imeun thing would happen they w" ould say, oh. well, yes, wie
that before-hand but I'm s. orry, v90 wouldn't do it now.
I-IS Prime 16 nister, the other. thing that is going to be-caid
against you though in that contex~ t is that you ha; d a brohen promicregarding
uranium.
P. 11. ho is going to say that? If anyone is going to cay
that about me, they redlly don't ). now-me. I've uiade it quiteo cleer,
right through, what my positi4on iu on. uranium. The dcsoiof th2io
governrme nt taken in rergard to uranium wias totally consi,. tcn,. t-ith
the existinlg uraniumt 0I don't-kno-: j what you are tall:'. ng Lbout,
The po.. 00.
1S Well do you think those xwho are now oppo. sinc-you on thio,
Laz b. or party ps-orplo are opposing you saying that it is a brol: znr
prolnulr. Did they misunderstand ~ ou?
I know thc'y ara saying that. but they aro virong. I
raeari, you a517 those same people, kihat did they say infter the 1982
* conference of the labor party you look at tho televicion rceds
of those pe-ople. When the uranivza policy of 1902 was carriod, they
. wcre saying, these same peoplc , they were saying it uas a out.
Its a pro-iiranium policy. it as under that policy tliLt u
actecl, So ho-c-can it b-faid thcjC wel have broken a poic, You
* really must do a bctter exercise in lc-jic than that. You ccan e
have these people saying after ' 8.2 thzat theJt'! a pro turan Ux1 POliCY
Moroe..
cont o. 9.. 6
and then saying that whoA' we act u. nder it we" ve broken it.
M. S. What you are saying now of course will upset many of your
party members. Won't it? Now obviously what you are saying is
going to hurt particularly the'left wing.
Pm oh , the left wing had,& position, they fought it and
they lost. They accept the decision of the government.
M. S. But are-they accepting it?
P. m. well you will see that t hose people will be working for
the party. Working for its support, working for its return. In
all parties, not just in the Labor party, yodi'have differences of
views. if you'd like to analysce the--Liberal party and the National
Party aboult their views on partichiar views. Try them on South
Africa, for instance, within the; party, they have very# very
different and violently held difLferences of opinion. I wish you
know that you would under'otand that ir. a democracy, democracy ops:-ates
in a way that you don't have programmcwd individuals believing I n
exactly the same thing. Now that1 s true, of thle Labor Party, Nyou
have different elementr, within it'. Jvs; t as you have the ecreie
right and the exl. treme le,-t in the Conservative Party.
M. S ,... Loolk I understand tl.: at well, buL in your party of cource
youi arc having ths problems right now again witCh preselectLions and
* good old fashioned faction fightinPg.
P. H I toll you whe-t, wzt won~ t liave ttw. o Labor party People
standing against one another and 8f fe ring thmevsto the V no 1le
of 2~~ afain this ceIon4
I-10' rx you sure?
P. 1.1. The Cons-ervat. ve partiep will: the miost bitter fight in
tis clect4. on will be between tlLO'JlibCoral party and the IUatiohI
party in 3 cornered contest. Tharcos i-. here the bitterness and
oppositicin will be.
H4You're about to go to a National R): ecutive INeeting now
* and the qucL~ tion for re-affiliat-1onr of' thosc four . right win-g uniono
is goi. 1g to co-me iup. is that going to be of concern, to try ' and
~ olv that one? Oh I always takze nnttcrs thlat come-i bo fo.% e the FEl'(-at:. cnal
77-ccutivo scriously. I alw. ys try' and 5olve them.
cont 7
14.. Do you think this one will be solved before the
election or after?
P. 149 B.. Iefore
M. S today?
P. M Of course we'll. solve i. t today.
M. S Well there h~ as been the' suggestion that it might be
deferred. P. M Wlell, a lot of people have ! 3uggested a lot of thing.
* Do you want me to operate on the kDasis of accepting every suggestion
that io made in the media?
M. S. Its not the suggestion Of the media. It might be the auggestn
of certain members of your party.:
P. M O course it has bcen a , ugqestion. I don't thinhk that
that will hFappen.
II. S. * coo 3 in out?
P. Vel. l I'm not going any, further, thi[ s is a mattor for
discussion in the executive I've jutezpreseO" my view that X
th)-nk that it wiill be resolved.. ow I'm not going to say anything
more about that before the mcetin j0
I42. S. Rlight. N~ ow I kiiow that you* don't rcgard popularity poll1s as
boing Jinportant except for the oce-asional onl. 1 are you taking any
interest in those that show And2r&, Peacock as polling quite badly
the m~ oment?
PJIA. Voll I dont rezO. ly want, to talk~ about thc loadcr of the
Opoitioflp but I must sciy that I' thin% that hti~ s hcappeningtho
reflects the good rscn. c of the Aueralai. cto--atc,,
II. S. Do you think he has gzaihod some in the last veek thoiugh,
since the last wi.-tpaken sinco he hats marjaq-. d to maecl;-iraa
an issuc.
PJ1 I'nM not speculc. 1-ing oin2 vhzte pni I'~ m ccatznt with
thc polls, and I have been for co,., ae timoe and if there i. s only one
there ivhic1h deals directly with be-tweon the leader of the
opposition a-nd myself zand that cji-w over, well ovc 70 au nac
to about 15% for him to whYo rl ople kilho w,. uld Pre-Cer 1c,;( ec-r
this count -y and T think khat tat cays it all.
M. IS. Do you extpect a dirty c~ i-i-Eign? Will you he trying to get
your-revenge on Andrei., PeFacock?
cont 8
P. M. No, you can expect a dirty campaign from them biecaure
that after all is the way they ha~, e been doing it. In NSW and
Federally, because they cannot and will not talk about the economny.
We sit there week after week, in tLhe 110use waiting for questions
about the economy. They are not torthcoming because they know the
truth, that they cann't do anything there which will advantage them.
So they have descended not merely into the gutter but into the
sewer,. ih note sus
They find that you are mo4vulnerable o te sus
P. M. Pardon?
M. S. Thy might believe Chat : you.. are more vulnerable on other
issues. P. M. On the contrary they knowl that there. is absolutely no
mileage in talking about the econo y so they mnanufacture inones of
the sewer type. If they wcant. to d o that l. et them do it. 1' T~ a vin'
be getting dow-n into the sewer viti thci-,.
M. S. Will crime an iss. ue?
Well, If it is, it is go;. ng to bea very dangerou!; for the
L. ibrals b % cause I will remind you hicha -el Chtji for 30 out of t7, Clast
35 years at the Federal levcl. the Concset-, atives have beeon
iipower in thi~ s country, I would'remind you that it w& 3 in D2cora,'-.. c
11901 tlh -t comissiore~ r Costigan zz* id that the twir avoidanco imelu-1ta'y
which was-mined up with organicsed cr:. rae, that flourichcd in
* he rzaid in D ce-mber' 01 particularl in the last 5 years. ThLat ic
. twQ176 and 01 5o if thzy want to talk about Cr: ille they 0-ro
* one-s who've had the mE-tnaioir-mt of his country, the orgaliisalticn
of this country for the overwhemi. prope.. rtion of thio ti7, if
thay wiant to talk abouit it and xiha-they have done or what hase'nt'
h: on donec so be it. Ile will take t ,. emi h-ad on if theiy want to
talk zaboutl that.
N. S. Just one final question.: 0oh.. two quicko-saos.
t. I. thae moions= of a prime ministnr be an clection iss-ua?
11L. 112 I-' don't know. But-again' if anyone iwant. s; to Mak-Oe an se
of, that, 1that's up to them. I'll df* a 1lh it.
VXo, u~ ld you be disa-%) Jnted tf 1thatL wasj an cloction irt-3Lo?
P. N Looh, I don't exoxoss di . Apoj. n~ tnent or no-about whiat
pzoi want to make iF : uos Thi-g-5vernnhont rnd iyself are oc~~ l
hanppy to dcal with all issuc.-, that Qre raised. I an, not one iiho
iL-t 0
cont 9
walks away from any issue. Whaf. ver issue is raised, I will deal.
a' with it.
14. S But you are trying to ' make the economy the issue.
P. M. I'm trying to make it. : 1 tried to explain to you before
that I believed that the overwhelining majority of people as distinct
from radio commentators like, Michael Schild-berger, and people
in the press galleries who want t6 run particular issues and I
don't criticise you for it. If you think running with an
issue that's good. That's what dQemocracy is about. I'm simply
saying that its a good idea for people in the gallery and people in
the area of co entziry to just remamber at times that w~ e are talk: 1ng
about the lives of ordinary, every'day Austral~ ian. They are
concerned about their children's iducation, they are concerned abo~ ut
their employment opportunities, they are concerned about what is~
happaning to inflation, they are concerned ahout what is haippeanincl
tg intorp. 1-t rrjtes, concerned as to whc Lhr tI~ jeo~ i
o declining, these are the things which concern ordinary~ poople.
Comranatr wilinr ht basic ftct at their peril.
I. I. S. Lnot qiuestion then. You hadn't actulilly chosen the
electi on date last time we,-% pohe. Ilavo you now in your own i. nd
chot~ cn the date?
PQ. 1 Ito not absolutcly final!-sed in my mind. I adhere to t-lat
I Gaid, I will be.-malzing a s; tatoiient about it in the, relatively near
fur~ tu9. r et at ctaement ill, a; distinct fromaltoef
predccz.: sin the past be mu h arlierthnhectati ote
elcAtion and will. not bz, pdayiicg arounrl with pnople's feelingo on
t-hi, 3 matter; au our predeccessorfi have, and most imiportantly,
uhin we have that e eton there will ba-a referendum with it
a oiiaultanceous ciection o that; i-jQ government in the future ccan
do the Cons erva ti ve pred-ecessor!. hLave dclurie of imposing unnecessary
clections on the poople of Auutralia.
IMIS~ U-Jil that be an election, issuc though, the choosi-ng of
v. colul dn' t he-ve thought ! 3o, I % wo.: uldt hink -; hat pzopln
' ncrc~ c2nd that they.(,-want 31ess clection.-and under wha . t we'llA boC
Coi. ng thcrc-J' 1 J.) 3 one less" olnctc. n. Iist-cad of having tho.
cone; titiut onaly noceossary I-,: lf senMate clection in the early pzare
Of rert year and then the house ofreprcsontat-ver, election not lon
cont after. We'll have them together and save the people of Australia
an election and that's what they ijant.
W. S And you think you ha~ ie solved that well enough by al~ ouncing
. it. in advance? -jell I just knoii th,. t people don't want. any more
elections than are necessary. Ana this way they'll be saving
themselves an election.
M. S. Prime IKinister thank you for talld1ng with me this
morning. I ' m sure we'll talk agbain before the election..
P. 1-Thank you ~ Iichae1.