O. 0E. -PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT or. INTERVIEW WITH MIKE, CARLTON, 2GB, SYDNEY, 26/ 9/ 134
CARLTON: On the line from Kirribilli House in Sydney this
morin~ g. Prime Minister, good morning.
PM: Good morning.
CARLTONt Thanks for your time. Prime Minister, I want to
respect the privacy of your family, but I think there are a couple
of issues that may affect, if you like, the office of Prime
Minister. Could I ask-you just how long you have been aware of the
childrena' heroin addiction.
PM: I want to say in respect of the question of my family that
Flazol when she spoke did that as a result of the instigation Df
my children. And there is an agreement between us that that
statement by Hazel would represent.. the last statemrent that would
be mnade on this issue. It was made at their request. Neithex:,
Hazel nor the children nor myself will hc going to the question
Cain. That was a courageous decision that was taken by my
children. We have an understanding and I: am not going to do anything
in any way which breaks thatL understanding and commitmoent so you can
ask me, Mike, as many questionzs ac-you like. I will not ha breaking
that undertaking to my family.
CAflt-TON; Ilight, I don't want to intrude into that privac-,. y at all.
PM: You are not going to.
CARLTON: OK, but I still ionder if the're is not a question of how.
Icilffcts the conduct of the Prime Minis(, tership.-if you like,
your position at the head of the government.
PM: That's another matter. If yo. an . o as k me questions about
my Prime Ministership and i-he conduct of it, that's another matter.
I of course seek to impose no limii-. ation upon any -questions you g o
into in that area.
CARlLTON: Alright, isl it posuible at any stage that there could
hiave been the ch-ance-of blachmail or preizaure placed upon you as
Prima Minister throucfh the drug addiction of your children?
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PM: Of course not. It's a total misreading of not simply
my character, but I think the character of any parent, that
there be a suggestion that the thing uppermost in one's mind
would not be the instigation of a situation in my case that
would make it most likely that anyone connected with this
abomination should be brought to justice. They would misread
not just my character, but the character of anyone, I believe
if they thought that sort of thing could happen.
CARLTON: Yes, what. I am getting at again is that
PM: I understand, I mean, I am not unintelligent. I heard
your question and I think that I made it clear, Mike, that the
implication that anyone could it's not just a question of me
that anyone in public life would be able to allow their concern
not merely for their own children, but for the abomination of
this drug traffic to be manipulated in a way other than to eek
to have it destroyed is an absurdity and I find it offensive that
there should be any continuation of that suggestion.
CARLTON: No, I'm not suggesting that at all, but I wonder if
the drug trade is not so widespread now that a heroin pusher could
deliberately seek to involve the Prime Minister's children to
gain for himself some sort of advantage.
PM: Michael, I am not going to go into the situation that
concerns my children.
CARLTON: OK; we'll forget it.
PM: I would wish you would have the decency to respect not me,
EUt there are other people involved.
CARLTON: Alright, well, we will go ' away from it to the
politics of it. Why is the Costigan Commission being wound up
when Costigan says he was close to big names and when he
appealed for more time to go?
PM: we might ask you the question, Mike. Why do you ask
questions which are based on totally false premises. Let mec
give you the facts. The Costigan Commission is not being
wound down. It is not being wound down. Let me give you the facts.
It was December 1981 when Mr Costigan produced his most devastating
report about the growth of organised crime and particularly of
the drug industry in Australia. That was December 1981. ArLd in
that devastating report he referred to the fact that in his
investigations into the Painters and Dockers Union he had
stumbled into the indu3try of organised crime which he said was
the fastest growing industry in Australia, particularly let me
remind you particularly over the past five years that is
from 1976 to 1981. Now what did the previous government do in
those circumstances Their next Dudget after December 1981
was brought down in ' 82 which determined the financial resources
made available to the Costigan Commission for 1982/ 83. Now those
resources, Mike, were just under throe million. Let me be precise
$ 2,963,805. Now that was the reaction of our predecessors.
The resources they would make available to the Costigan
Commission. when we came in, in our first year 83/ 84, we
more than doubled the financial resoures made available
that was from their $ 2.9 to $ 5.9 million.
CARLTON: But now the Costigan Commission is coming to an end,
isnt iTt, I mean..
PM: I believe that you think you are asking what you
f~ gard as an important question, in making allegations about
the winding down of the Costigan Commission.
CARLTON: No, it is closing, it is.
PM:. Either you regard this as-important or not, Michael,
and you will give me the opportunity of putting into full
context the facts.
CART-TON: OK.
PM:* Now the facts are that this Government in our first year
m ore than doubled: the resources available to the Costigan
Commission. We strengthened it and we; doubled its resources;.
Now we shared with our predecestc-or, Mr Fraser, the view which
had been expressed by Mr Fraser and his Attorney-General and
their spokesman, that the Costigan Comission had to come to
an end and be taken over by a permanent. authority. That wa! s the
view of the previous government and it is our view. And so we
commenced the discussion within the ccommunity as to what shiould
be the form of permanent authority, ongoing authority, to fiLght
crime and the National Crime Authority so emc~ rged. Now the
important thing is that the Cos'cigan Commission activities have
not been brought to an end. All the material of Mr Coimmrissioner
Costigan is being passed over to the National Crime Authority,
a permanent body. The 42 lines of inve! stigation that rr
Costigan has specifically mcentioned are being handed over to
this new permanent authority which has been regarded by both Sides
of politics as necesfsary to take over lthe temporary work of the
R~ oyal Commission.
CARLTON; Yes, but didn't Costician hiinm3elf plead though for more
time. Did you just see you had to draw the line' Somewhere?
P11: Let'Is put that into historical context. Mr Commissioner
-ostigan asked the Fraser Government in the mid ' dle of 1982 for an
extension of two to three years. He asked the previous
government, lMe wanted to be extended for two to three years.
And the previ4ous government wou' ' d not give him that extension.
Hie hat. asked us for an extension and we have given him, not to
the extent that. he asked for. And in that we were at one with
the previous governnmcnt in that you cault have a Royal Commiss~ ion
which is regarded and zacknowledr: ted eas a temporary institution.
CARLTON: Right. What of Mr Peacock's claim that Costigan
was in fact getting too close to a scandal which could
embarrass the NSW Government?
PM: Absolutely untrue. For that proposition to have any
validity at all, you would have to say you were going to be
stopping Mr Costigan handing over and making available, not
only the material, but all his resources to the National
Crime Authority. Everything that Mr Costigan has got, all his
lines of investigation, will be handed over. They have it
already, much of it has been handed over. And I would just
ask you this question, Mike. It is a fundamentally important
question. Any suggestion that the National Crime Authority
cannot or will not continue the work of Mr Costigan involves a
most fundamental attack upon the integrity and the capacity of
the members of the National Crime Authority. They are going
to have all Mr Costigan's material.
CARLTON: But not all his powers of investigation and can't a
state government veto, a line of enquiry?
PM: The point there is that there are single path tracks that
can be taken, but what you have got to understand and what has
been understood by the people who have been investigating ir the
period leading up to the establishment of the legislation
people have understood that if you are going to make a national
authority work, you have to have the co-operation of the states.
And that has been made quite clear. Let me refer to what
Special Prosecutor Redlich has said about this because this
make the point crystal clear as to how you are going to have,, an
effective National Crime Authority. This is page 48 of his
report, Michael. He says throughout its long history, the
debate on the configuration of the Authority has been influenced
by three factors. He referred to three. That is the optimum
moans of detecting and investigating organioed crim: inal activity.
Secondly, the protection of civil liberties. And thirdly, the
integrity of the States and their law enforcement agencies.
CARLTON: Yes, it just seems to me a State can chuck a spanner
in the works if it wants to.
PM: I don't believe that that is the case because if all the
material has been passed over, as it has been, then what you are
going to have is what is happening now is that you have got
Counsel investigating all that material and making recommendations
to the members of the National Crime Authority itself. And then
that goes to the inter-governmental coi-mittee. Now look at the
reality of it. Do you believe thlat there could be a tenable
situation where all that process has been gone through, the material
has come through Mr Costigan, it has come to Counsel, it goes to
the members of the National Crime Authority itself. They
examine it all and they make a recommendation to the intergovernmental
committee. Do you think in political terms a
government could possibly survive which in the front of all
other government members of a politically opposite character,
said, oh no, because we want to protect a situation, we are going
to put a veto on it. It is a political insanity. No government
would survive that process when the Costigan Commision has seen
the material, the members of the National Crime Authority have
seen the material, Counsel Assisting have seen the material,
and CARLTON: And it has been leaked in the National Times.
PM: in the National Times. But you are saying its political
real that when you have got all that spread of knowledge about
a situation any political leader would say I'm sorry I'm going to
put a kybosh on it. Now let me just make one other point
about it so that you're not just having me say this, but I am
terribly concerned, Mike, and I believe you should be and anyone who i
concerned as I am, and I want to get everybody concerned with
organised crime in this country behind bars. I don't want
reputations destroyed by innuendo. I want the proper processes
of a trial. And my commitment is that any person concerned with
organised crime in this country and involved in it should finish
up behind bars. And I am terribly concerned that as a result of
this politically stage-managed exercise thatlis going on at the
moment, the authority and the integrity of the National Crime
Authority is being undermined in its capacity towwl/ ork.
CARLTON: You know why that is. One reason we have had so
many Commissions and Enquiries, particularly here in NSW, and
yet the big fellows, the big fish are still on the loose,
aren't they.
PM: Let me just make one point. Commissioner Costigan made
hTs report, as I say, in December 1981 and in talking about
the growth of organised crime, the fastest growing industry in
Australia, he said it had particularly flourishedlin the last five
years. Let mn make the point, that if you want to talk about the
last 35 years in this country, since 1949, out of those
years 30 of them at the Federal level have been in the hands of
non-Labor government. Now it was only when this government came
in that we double the resources of the Costigan Commission,
that we established an effective national continuing permanent
crime authority which as far as I'am concerned, while I am
Prime Minister, will be under the constant instruction and
initiative to do everything they can to bring every single person
connected with organised crime to trial and if found guilty put
behind bars. Let . me make the point about Senator Chipp and what
he has said.
CARLTON: Prime Minister, I am going to have to finish in just
a second. Will you wear the idea of putting Costigan before
the Senate?
PM: Look, the question of Mr Costigan going before the Senate is
a matter for the Senate. If anyone has got anything to be
worried about in respect of Mr Ccstigan it is not this government.
lUL'TUIN: iMr HawKe we will have to leave it there.
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