PRIME MINISTER]
E. O. E. PROOF ONLY
TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH IAN McMINT4,-MACQUARIE NE-TWORK
CORRESPONDENT 28 JUNE 1984
McMINN: What I would like to basically talk to you about
Es the union thing in particular and, as I see it, as a
catalyst in many things, Prime Minister, and that is as I see
it, the Labor Party if you are beholden to sectional
interests which are totally impractical and the Labor Party is
not going to achieve in a social reform situation. And that
is my basic position.
Prime Minister, you have been distinctly silent in the last
couple of weeks and there have been many events that people
would regard as set-backs to you. One of the bigger things
that most people are talking about is the fact that the
Victorian branch of the Labor Party last weekend decided that
four right wing unions should not be re-affiliated. Since
then there are appearances that the federal executive would
intervene. So I would like to find out your falling on the
Victorian branch's decision and what the Labor Party should do.
PM: Yes, Ian, before I go to those specific questions that you
aisk, let me make the point in response to your observation
about my silence. I have taken the view that the matters will
be decided at the top levels of the Party at the national
executive or perhaps the national conference and I have not
sought'to go into the great public debate about it, but as,
people now outside the conferences have seen fit to air their
views and like being involved in a lot of the expressions by
others, it seems to me appropriate that I should respond to
your specific question about the unions.
I have made it clear earlier in the year, Ian, that the four
unions involved have a right to be affiliated to the Party.
I have made the distinction between the unions and some
individuals if there are any individuals in respect of whom
it can be established that they are either now or have
recently been associated with some prescribed organisation like
the NCC, then they would have to do the same thing as members
of any other party. They would have to see the time before
they could become members. But the principle regard to the
four unions in my judgement is crystal clear. And that is that
clerks,-. men and women, in Victoria; shop assistants,. men and
women, in Victoria, are entitled through their union, if they so
wish, to be affiliated with this party which is a trade union
based party. Let me make a particular point in regard to the
/ 2
shop assistants. I must say I find it totally amazing
that the party in Victoria co~ uld have in the State election in 1982
have accepted willingly financial support and the availability
of resources from that union to heavily support the Labor
Party in that 1982 State election and then in the next year
in 1983 happily accepted $ 50,000 from this union. Now, I don't
know where principles start and end if you recognise this
union, accept their support in so substantial form, but say, no,
they are not entitled to be affiliated to the Party.
McMINN: But Prime Minister, aren't we really talking about
authority, now. I mean, you are in the happy position, if
you like, of commanding popularity within the Australian
community. The Labor Party seems to be commanding the same
popularity, but it seems that you have been challenged on the
very thing that could undo you and that is your own credibility
that is are you controlling the Party or is the Party controlling
you? PM: I don't think it is as simple as that. I have never
sought, from the moment I obtained the leadership of the Par:. ty
to say that I controlled the Party, but I believe what is
clear involving your question, I think Ian, that the people of
Australia, given the Party under my leadership and the sort of
support to which you are referring and my leadership is
significant in that. And it is important, I think, that the
people of Australia see that the sorts of principles which I have
clearly enunciated, are accepted by the Party. That doesn't:
mean in any way explicitly or implicitly ' but there can't be. debate or
there shouldn't be debates, about issueIs that on the one ILn
particular that you have raised, the question of rights of
unions to be affiliated to the Labor Party. The principle is
crystal clear. These unions are official, registered unions
which in other states are affiliated with the Party. They
are affiliated with the Trades and Labor Councils. They have
been operating under the law where leaders are there as a result
of democratic elections under the law. Now this Party cannot
get into the position in my judgement where it is going to
have double standards, where you will Say yes it is your right
to have, for instance the builders labourers, for instance a
union which has consistently since we have been in government
fought to try and undermine the Prices and Incomes Accord and
that was the case of a particular union in Victoria. But you
are not going to have another union or unions in because you
don't happen to like their leadership.
McMINN: But aren't you treading on dangerous ground here. It
seems to me the feeling was that you had a successful national
conference and no-one rocked your boat then it would seem to
me from what you are saying and from what other people that. I
have contacted have said, that you are prepared to take it on.
There is a risk, sure, in taking on the Victorian State Branch.
3.
PM: It's not a question of taking on the Victorian State
Br-anch. What is involved in politics it seems to me is to
be prepared in the appropriate forums to argue the case,
the principle. For instance on the question of uranium,
it was put to me in 1979 as we came up to the ACTU Congress
that the clear position that I had was one for which I
wouldn't be able to get the numbers at the ACTU Congress
and indeed some of my friends said, look, we'll put the
resolution bec ause we don't want to see you in a position
where you can't carry it. And I said, look, the position is
clear. The principle is clear and it is right. So I argued
for it. And may I say that in 1979 that I said that I
understood the trade union movement and I knew that they
would support my position and not the position that was
carried and of course I have been proved absolutely correct
on that.
McMINN: Has it hurt you, Prime Minister, to sit back over
the last couple of weeks now and watch what some people could
perceive as the underming of what you have achieved in the
last year or so be the things that people are reading every
day. Does that worry you?
PM: Obviously any political leader would be quite dishonest
37 he didn't acknowledge that he would not rather see a
position where his Party was not engaging in exercises which
could potentially do damage to his Government and obviously I
would be happier if that were not occurring, but I believe that
the people of Australia, as distinct from perhaps some
people who are getting carried away on single issues, of
passionate concern to them, that the people of Australia are
continuing their very very large support for this Government
because they understand what the basic issues are. They
understand that they wanted the economy turned round out of
recession into growth. They understand that under my
Government we now have the highest rate of growth in the
western world.
McMINN: But why don't the people in your Party or some of
the people in your Party understand that?
PM: Well, I think the majority of them do and they will show
That by the way they make their decisions at the conference!, yes.
McMINN: Are you sure about those very key issues, the foreign
banks, Timor and more particularly uranium.
PM: I am confident that common sense will prevail. / 4 i Irl,
4.
McMINN: What are you going to do Prime Minister, to tell the
Australian community that basically this growth of concern at
the grass roots of-the Party does not influence you as a
Government in other words you are still on course with
most Australians.
PM: Well, I think I need to say very little about that.
I mean we have had a series of polls within the last week.
We've had the Gallop Poll out of the Melbourne Herald group
which showed 55% support for the Government which is 5 above
March ' 83 in the election. 73% for myself, we've had the
Bulletin this week showing a 53% support for the Government,
still very, very much up above the election and over for
myself. Interestingly in that, well over 90% support of Labor
vote is for myself. So,. these things are there and people understan~ d
them I believe.
McMINN: So, I guess on the Tuesday address to the Conference
you'll be talking about the achievements of this Labor Government.
Is there any possibility that you'll also talk to the Part),
or the broad mass of Australianson the basis that you are ILn
control?
PM: I think that is understand. Certainly, my speech will
cover a wide range of issues Ian. I don't want to and I know
you don't expect me to canvass them in detail, but I'll
certainly be . going to the achievements of the Government, and
the confidence the Australian people have in the Government.
And the importance therefore for the Party, this goes back
to one of your earlier questions importance for the Party
to not do anything which is going to in any significant way
undermine-the basis of that support.
McMINN: Specifically, if I can go to. Thursday and Friday of
the National Executive what do you think is a reasonable outcome.
Do you think that two of the unions should be re-affiliated,
do you think that the four of them should? Do you take on the
Victorian Branch, what are the mechanics of it as you see iLt?
PM: Oh well, the mechanics are I believe that there are already
a couple of appeals in, or on their way as I have been informed
by the-Secretary, and the Executive therefore will discuss it
It is quite clear and that the principles that I have referred
to in my.: earlier answers to your questions are universal.
I don't think they allow distinction.
McI4INN: Can I ask you one final thing Mr Hawke, and that is
Mr Hartley standing. f or the number 3 spot in Victoria. Is it
wise? PM: I believe that the Victorian Branch will make the right
decision in this matter.
McMINN: But you wouldn't like to see him there?
PM: Well, let's not discuss hypothetical questions. He's not
a candidate. As I say I believe that the Victorian Branch will
make the correct decision.