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: 1. BNCH as you know I've said it will be in February or March, but
tEre will be an early one. Mr. Hawke nice to have you. back in the -studio
and I thank you again for what you did before and said before.
MR. HAWKE Pleasure Derryn.
HINCH I suppose back in the real world. The issues seem to be all around
us. There's the superannuation business, there's the assets test, there's
the doctors' problems in NSW increasinly it seems to te everybody sayd
yes we understand we have to share but nobody wants to do the sharing,
everbody says yes but not me, not us, we are special.
MR. HAWKE Well I don't think that's quite right, I mean you get the
evidence of the concerns and I don't Worry about the fact that people initially
say, they get aprehensive and worried, but I have great faith in human
nature basically that when people understand, learn what thiigs are about
and see that there's a good and decent reason for what is being done they
accept it. I had this experience last week which you would have read about
when I went down to Chelsea here and met a couple of hundred, probably two
or three hundred pensioners there....
HINCH And the reception wasn't good to start with.
MR. HAWKE No that's not fair it was quite a sort of warmish reception
when I started, friendly, but you could just see it as I explained the assets
test, the very few relatively that would be affected, and the reason why it
should be done, the reasonableness of it, the fact that it would enable
governments in the future to have more available to them to help those who
really were in need, they gave me a standing ovation and " for he's a jolly
good fellow" at the end. Now I'm not saying that to talk about myself but it
really, the point I'm making is that once ppople have initial fears or
worries dissipated, and see that this: is a good thing for the country and
it's not really going to hurt them, then they understand it.
HINCH What is it mainly though, is it a fear of a creeping socialism, is it
a fear of a kickback to the early ' 70s or what?
MR HAWKE No it's certainly not a fear of creeping socialism, I mean the
people of Australia know probably who gets attacked more than anyone by the
extreme left of politics in Australia. I mean I'm the number one target, so
that's a non-event. No it's not a return to the ' 70s if there's one
thing that's clear about the public perception of this government it's a
competent, effective economic manager. I mean this is a plus for this
government now as distinct from the apprehensions there were earlier. No
I think it's simply, look, people are the same from when they are young, or
from when we are kids and right through. If you've got something and you
think perhaps you are going to have it taken away from you or something said
that might change a little the habits and the patterns that you've got, your
natural reaction is to say that might effect me not the other bloke and I
don't want to have change, and so the function of good government it seems
to me is communication to get your decision right and then communicate it
and I've said frankly in regard to the assets test that we didn't get it
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right the first time and I quite straight-forwardly told the people.
HINCH Yeah well in favour of youi government you didn't just plough.. i
ltraight on with it, you changed.
MR. HAWKE That's right, well I've never believed in that. If you make
a mistake, it's human nature to make mistakes. We could have done it
better and as soon as, I could see it developing on my way back from China.
I was sitting in the plane there in February and I mean there has always#
been talk I succumbed to pressure from here and there, I was sitting in'%.
the plane and I thought that's not going right there are problems with
that, so as soon as I got back I said now we have got to drop that, have
some more discussion about that andlget the community into it, and there
is no doubt that what we have done now is right, it's simple, straightforward
and will be to. the long term benefit of Australia.
HINCH I've talked with Senator Grimes in the last few days about the
assets test and also to your opponept Andrew Peacock. Could we talk some
generalities for a change because sometimes listeners get bogged down inthey
think pollies give them facts and figures and they get bogged down
in it. Since you have been in office and you have been there for over a
year now., you have said things li e you beleived that people in their
old age should live well, they should get 25% of the basic wage. You haven'
been able to do it. How does that personally affect Bob Hawke you just
cannot give what you feel is good for the country, what you wanted to do
for the country.
MR. HAWKE Let's be clear about tiat, I don't want to go back into
details, but you know you have acknowleged it with me, the problems we had
with the, when we came to power at the beginning of last year, that we had
that 3.6 billion dollars extra deficit that we hadn't been told about by
our political opponents and that me& nt we couldn't immediately do the
things we wanted to do. But in the; basic, the important area of employment
creation we are well ahead of target and we have got the economy moving
strongly now and that will mean that as we come up to our next budget and
beyond we will in fact be moving significantly towards doing the sorts of
things we are talking about. In the pensions area I obviously can't give
the full details but we will do more than just do what's required to restor
the loss of purchasing power, we will start to move towards that
earnings that is our policy, and th t's clearly accepted now by the people
HINCH When you talk about the economy coming back, there's the economic
summit in London which some people Oee as a bit of a non-event recently,
with leaders like Reagan and Thatcher etc. I notice Max Walsh this morning
pointing nut the fact that despite what pAnple refer to as rhetoric the
stock markets are still very scared I mean Wall Street is still not
believing what the leaders are telling them, Wall Street doesn't believe
Ronald Reagan's optimism.
MR. HAWKE Well as far as the intbrnation stock market is concerned,
what you've got to understand, and ihat is quite clear, one of the major
causes of concern is whether the third world couhtries that are particularly
indebted are going to be albe to service that massive debt which
runs into hundreds of billions of dpllars, the concern there is that with
the private banking system in the United Staten so heavily exposed with. th
high level of debt that the stability of the US private banking financial
is in question and that at the moment I think is the major source of
instability on the stock market internationally....
HINCH How often say can an American govornment come in and prop up one
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bank with like 3 billion dollars, t at's the question.
MR. HAWKE Well you can't keep on doing it indefinitely but if you V.'
look at the performance of the financial system both public and private
the judgement'ust be that over the last few years they've done a very
good job in coping with this massive increase in indebtedness. The secret,
of dealing with it is to get the economy of the developed countries
together moving more strongly so that there is a higher demand f6r the
S exports of these indebted dountries; point one, and I think that that
is happening. Secondly of course in the United States it had to get its
deficit down because every increase; in percentage point interest rate
increase in the United States adds hundreds of millions of dollars to the
interest indebtedness of those debtor countries. Now on that point : tthink
in the longer term there's grounds for optimism, once the US presid-
S ential elections are out of the w~ y I think decisions will be made to
bring that deficit down.
HINCH Closer to home, back at hoie, obviously totally revamping the
taxation system in Australia must be one of your major concerns for the
second term that you presume you are going to get and most people predict
you are going to get. Will you look at areas like single mothers who
want to go to work, it seems crazy to me that a single mother can't deduct
the fees for the babysitter, the childminder, now I've talked to single
mothers who have gone to work and 75% of what they earn has gone to mind
S the children Are you looking at those sorts of areas?
MR. HAWKE The areas affecting women in taxation are being specifically.
examined by the Office of the Status of Women in my department, Prime
Minister's Department, so as we are'preparing the Budget we will have
indication available to us of the areas of the whole fiscal system, tax;.
system which impinge upon women, and that doesn't mean that we willbe
S ble in this budget to remedy every part of the existing tax system,
Iiich may have some relatively harsher impact on women, but it is being
: i specifically dealt with in a way it hasn't been dealt with before, now
S going to the broader area that you 4re talking about, the reform of the
tax system generally, could I make this basic point which is not sufficiently
understood within the community generally, People get very
i complicated ideas of what tax is about, it's essentially very simple and
it's this, tax represents the way i which society through its individuals
and its companies and organisations, pays some of its resources and income
to the government for the government on behalf of the people to do the
things that individuals and organisations want done for them which they
S. can't do for themselves. That's essentiAlly what tax is, however complicated
and sophisticated your economic writers make it, that's what tax isthe
transfer of resources from ourselves as individuals and organisations
to give to government to do the things that we really want done. So what
we have gradually got to do is sit down, the government and the community,
and sort out the two sides of what taxation is about. We have got to try
Sa nd get as much area of agreement a6 we can about the things that we want
government to do and the priorities: that we want and at the same time say
together we think that this is the fairest way for us as individuals and
organisations to transfer our resources and that's really the discussion
i that I'm trying to get going within the community, in the Econ6mic Planning
Advisory Council and other forms of consultation. It's quite silly
people picking out one thing and saying we should do that or we should do
this. We have got to make sure a total framework of the community is
satisfied that these things are beihg done to satisfy the two criteria of
equity between groups and individuals as to how they pass over their
resources and efficiency. It' silly having a tax which in net termir is
going to create more inefficiencies than the capacity of. government to
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4( INC Well that's one of the cr : it4~ cisms of the assets test.
LHAWKE No I don't know itherethat's come from...
flINCH In the short term the. amou~ t of muoney you. vill have to spend
ZB-Giing money in.
MR. HAWKE No in the first year'there will be a higher expenditure, . butevery
commnentator knows that that'alonly for the first.. year, includling,,,
our friends in the opposition, theyknow that that's' tiue, after the first
year, once you have establishedit it will be a n~ t gain for revenue. Not
only will it be a net gain for reverhue but also importantly it's going.. to
stop those systems where the esitremely wealthy were so arranging-their
assets that they were still ghttinga pension. Now there's not a single
commentator in the country who doe~ n't acknowledge that after the first
year it will be a net gain.
1IN~ CH The figure, I think it wap Max Burr raised the figure that at.
EEWemment 68% of government revenue is now going to social services
1gould that be about right?
MR. HAW'KE I don't think it would : be that high but it is a significant
proportion and it is precisely bec~ ise that is so that Andrew Peacock in
Septembe * r of 1981 when he was hAvin4 his sojourn on. the back benches,
made a very telling speech in the M~ use of Representatives and saying
therefore that governments he said ziust act with courage to ensure that
we didn't pay out unnecessary social welfare benefits to people who didn't
need them. It was an excellent spepch, he was right then, and it's a. pity
he didn't adhere to his principles..
flINCH You know Mir. Prime 14iniste : that all politiciAns youself included
sometimes can't bear the scrutiny of going back ten or fifteen years to
something you said...
MR. HAWKE I don't mind going back to something I've said in an area of
principle about politics....
flINCH Look at a classic case...
MR. HAWKE Let me say there will be for all of us a position where on
a reappraisal of the facts we will come to a different conclusion but on
a question of principle lik6 that there is constancy on the other side
of politics. John Howard, let me s~ iy John Howard has been totally consisteri
about this, he said consistently when he was in government he tried to
move an assets test, a means test# 1w said it was the right principle, he
still believes it, now that's why in the debate in parliament he wouldn't
oppose what we were doing.
HINCH Well I'm sure you can go b~ tck to comm~ entators like muyself and find
c~ aiiges in-' ideas....
MR. HAWKE Well sure....
flINCH But I'm thinking back to ay yesterday there was another French
test -at Mururea Atoll, youv'e been quoted, I think it was M4ax Walsh, dug
out that clip of yours in the ACTU # bout the ban on PFreach shipping etc
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things with it.
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H MR. HAWKE: Look, you ore not comparing' like with like, and I'm
glad you brought-it yp. Then thety weren't testing underground, they
were testing In the atmosphere * qnd ail the evidence, showed that with
atmospheric testing there was a : potential danger from those atmospheu-ic
tests to us In this country,..
HINCH People were buying canned iilk and powdered milk..-.
14R 1UAWKE and I was proud of ' ite fact that I led th afight in
and internationally at the ILO and one * of the causes of pride
that I have looking back is that from two different sources I was told
and fairly high sources,* from within : Francel that the fight that we led
internationally against atntospheric~ nuclear testing hastened their move
to uinderground testing. Now there Is a very big difference between
underground testing and atmospheric ' so I think you ought to be fatr to rrae
HINCH Can you live with, if at the ALP Federal Conference next month,
can you live with it if the ban con~ inues' against sales to. the' French?
MR. HAWK( E Look I've made it cleai Dex-ryn that I don't want to get into
Public dihnte before the Conference ! about . the issues. I want to donducet
this within the party and I don't think that anyone's cause-is advanced
by a public airing of it. I mean I~ will relax to this point to say that:
it seems to me that if something~ whothere you are talking about the ban
on sales of uranium to France, but let me make the general point, it sems
to me that in any area of activity that an inoividua or a group's involved
in, if they are taling about punith~ ng someone, it doesn'tmjake a hell
of a lot of sense if the action that you take in fact punishes the.
punisbor rather than the punishee.
HINCH A new version of biting off Your nose to spite your face. Two final
poih: Es on two personality issues. q9ne your reaction to the knighthood
recconuended by some mysterious () LD citizen for Premier Joh Ejelke Peterson.
MR. HAWK~ E Well since I've been Prime minister I haven't gone in for
thebsiTndhss of bagging Joh, he's the democratically elected Premier
of the State, if he wants to have a ' knighthood well he's obviously got to
authorize it himself and if he ' thinks it's a good idea to award himself a
knighthood well ok. I just happen to think that the overwhelming majority
of Australians are right in believinig that the time for imperial honours
has gone that we are a sovereign proud and independent nation and that
the Australian system of honours Is very very much to be preferred. But if
be's happy good luck to him.
H INCH,--Would you agree it's like Napolean crowning himself?
14R. HAWKE Except that Napolean lithink perhaps could have fashioned his
own ciaion. I couldn't detect the pen of Joh in that unbelievable
flourish of hyperbole in the English language which characterised that
citation. back in l972, 73 and yet now your standL now on that compared to then
on may supply of uranitim to the Frezlch. 4,. i it' Fm V. 3,
I I aMsINkCeHd TfYles poI intehwo umgehat ch aerumtl ht hmavaed i -arlekceedn talyc. oIns, t~ er-bi rtmoagCazoinle'lS' ecantd Ii't.
asked~~ h~ progwPecokab-rammue,-that ybu r1-:
relationship, : you don't have to lik4 your opponent, but you'r~ p'erronal
relationship with Andrew Peacock sedme to have changed#, seous to have--_,
* soured onh both stdos since you becavie Prime Ninistipr and be _ beiame Leader
of the opit~. ionuI
MR. HAWKE Yes v6il this has been~ asked of me quite a bit. I In~
realy wnt -to go into the question of personal analysis of the character'Jand
actions of Andrew just let me say that there are certain fundamentals
o f principle over recent times in wh 6h I think he has . shown, a disappoint~ ng
slackness. But it's because of thelthings that are invoived that 1. don'~ t
really want to say anymore bacause t think they go to issues which I
think are important in our community and I don't think really In develiop-
Ing my thoughts about it in relation to Mr. Peacock those fundamentally
important points are helped . and I d6n It think the coumuhity is helped.
Let me just say that, I'm disappointed in what has been in my Judgement
a lack of courage, za lack of couuuit~ ient to principle, a. lack of leadership.
HINCH Was it the issue of Asiadn immigration?
MR. HAWKE Well that was associated with it, there are others but it
was certainly associated with it.
HINCH Because it seems to m~ e that the major deterioration would have
occured around that time.
MR. HAWKE Yep.
HINCH But surely you have been di. sappointed In politico before And'
w OT17be again?
MR. HAWKE Yeah, look in politics just because you have arguments with
peope about day to day things or they accept the responsibility which
they have of attacking you or the governmente or for us the ' opposition,
that's part of life in politics and,. I thrive on it. I think thbre are
certain fundamental commitments and': I think also particularly wher~ e you
give your word on things its very ilaportant, if your word can't be adhered
to, but I think you can appreciate.-just don't want-to develop down that
line.* I hope we can keep a civilisiid relationship, I must say I co-rfess
on the prograimme I owe him $ 5 he -# anted to have a bet on the Essondon-
Swans game in the latter part of the parliament. I tried to negotiate
7 goals, he was very very adament h wouldn't give me more that 5. ' Now
if I had been able to get him to agree * to 7 he would owe me
HINCH You realise of course last w ekend I could have given you 7 goals
and Melbourne still would have beaten you.
Mr. Prime Minister I thank you slncprely for coming