PRESS OFFIC9 TRANSCRIPTwEDMDSAY, 15-OCTOBER,. 1980
PRIME MINISTER INTORVISWED BY PETER HARVEY,-CHANEL NINE
Prime minister, could your leadership style, ' Your lack o>~ C~ l
about popularity, cost you Government on Saturday?.
Prime minister
I do n-at-believe-z-,--no. -1--miade up my mind, and the whole.-
Government did, five years ago, that we would make the. dec$ tsion$
that we believed were tight for Australia and for Austra14; i'
faniiliea,-for Aujr-aJia's working men and women. we know -that'
there have been some tough and difficult decisions. But-isno
a popularity contest. It is a question of. doing what i1as dr.
for Australia. Harvey
Butñ-it-is a popularity contest.
-Prine MKinister
Not ii that sort of sense. It is a question of being able to-d
what is right for this country. It is possible to prom-ise-, al te--
things in the world, and they can be superficially attractive. i
the-frst instance, but they could be disastrous in termeo6f theit
longer term consequences. we made up our minds that we : jusat -would.
not go down that path. If we promise something, I. have-. not -no
politician has got a secret treasure chest;_ if we pro. Mtae-somethi.-g1
it has got to be paid for by all the Ftapaye-rs-o tbis CoUnftryo by
all the working men and women of this country. This is the wrot4.--
time to go about policies which are going to add to inflation,
destroy ti ompettivebase of-Aittstralian industry. We* bave
established a very firm bases on which to build for the -109s with
* employment growing strongly,' with people being able-to se-li-
Austraian-made goods In nearlyeey * onr~ ftewrl.-B~
high inflation again, can destroy all of that.. -1
How do you combat, with that sort of philosophy,
promises of cheaper petrol and lower income tax.
econoiie--ergwnent minute, how do you tackle
Prime Minister Bill Kfaye'
Leaving aside, -thethose
problems?
I do not think you can entirely ignore the economic arqixment,
bperocmauissein gth et o osnplyen dw ayle syso. u caTnh amt akise ltohwe ' eor neta xtehsi gr esthpeact t~ Lbableo, r. diso rbigort.,
propose.-Teyrpropoeto spend a great deal. more, even -on. -their.-
own figures and they have not told us what their whole . programrme
would cost, they promised us a list but they havenot even-tried to
put th-e suns together so they are going to try. and spei more anmd
tax less and that leaves a great gap in resources whiThc-8-
totally inflationary.-1L~ ' 1
-Harvey, 15/ 10/ 80o-2-
Cheaper petrol?
Prime Minister
Wall, they have not really promised cheaper -petrol. T-hey have
given the impression of cheaper petrol. Theyjkave'said they would:'-*
freeze the price for a while, but they are only going to Creeethat
part which is produced in Australia, and if the world price
goes up that would still flow through. But here again it gets
back to the test of responsibility: are Australians -pre & red to.--
pursue the policies which all authorities in Australia and overseas
indeed, regard as being right so that there will be supplies of
petrol in-the 1990.-and-beyoncLm-that we will not uge up and-p~ ump
Bass Strait dry and then leave Australians -beggars for fuel onthe
international market at whatever price is then demanded, if
you can get it. As a result of our policies, even though we do
pay a world price, it is the lowest world price, and the price,~ f~
our petrol is about half that of most of Europe and less than
half 1Cor. many of thle countries of Europe about the same as
Ameriva-r, much less than New Zealand. Againat that background,
X think people are perhaps more concerned about where the moneyhas
gone rather than the policy itself. Over this last year, over
$ 600 mill Iion wen t in tax cuts on the f irst of July; very large
additional stums for defence which just have to be funded in the
kind of world we live in; and some more to reduc ' e the defic itin
other words, get the Government's books better into bala-nce',
Speaking of money going, Bill Hayden has made a gr~ eat deal of
running with his promises to end tax avoidance. Can you do-more?
Should more be done?
prim~ e minisgtor
Well, as schemes emerge, we will do more. -7ohf Howard hias donemore
in this area-than any oGther-' rre~ suarer in the history. ofthe
Commonwealth. When the Labor Party were in off Ice some vidous
tax avoidance schemes emerged they even spolce aboutit; bthe
never legislated.__ Mr. Hayden had a long while when he kiould toave
done something andike did nothing. The ax~ ayerst Associaitiol,
M'r. Risstrom, who_ haA a greato oncern with * these thingn * has~
indicated that nobody could do better than John Howard... He abei
down that track*---Now$ that'-not to-imy that other thinigalwill-not-il
emerge, that you will not have to legislate agai-n,. but thereis no-*
$ 1,000 million there for the ' lucking, as Mr. Hayden is trying t
-suig est. ThaZ-is dried up.
Harvey
okay, let's take a look at some of the tdther.-issues
emerged: defence.-W'hat sort-of impact do you b3,6ieva yoX. hxVe.-M8ad0--A
with defence as an issue in this election. IDo -you think-, it ha.
got home to people or they are just not caring-I
2
before me-on ma~ ny occasons, i Dirt less on trus campaign. Any
election violence I condemn and condemn-abso-Iutvty---BtU
Prime Minister has got to be able to go around the atrnets of : thiscountry. 19, 1-
Harvey, 15/ 1.0/ 80 -3
Prime Minister
it has to some peoples but Ibelieve not adequately.,' We are.
going to-uxpand-our dte~ ce forces very signif icantly. Ha yden
has given the impression that he supports that. -But In-r-ac t*,
he said that the future progranmmes will be under revie.-hti
ominous. That leaves opien for cukking., endiaig,-the prograft~ f;
But more important than thati the Americans. approached u. 4r
relation to Cockburn Sound as a home or base port r do , fqtI
know whether they are going to do it. They. are looking, -at-~
Cockburn SimYd aloga e-thei--Tades to help have a permanent ' I
and better force into the Endian ocean which would enormously be
to Australia's advantage. They are after all our all"., ow
Mr. Hayden has said he will not allow theim-there aO-4Ke--POr-----
base port. I do not believe he would allow those B-526 toopera8tep:
through Darwin under the only terms and conditions that would -be
acceptable. of course Australian sovereignty must be mainftained*& t
but I do not believe when the crunch came that he would -AllOI
The philosophical base of the Labor Party has been one which bal
criticised the United Statesiand the United St~ test Presid. ncyi
criticised their resistance tor-Soviet aggression inrAMghafqIstan,
That does not provide a very happy relationship on which. ta*. uove8
forward into the kind of partnership that we need in A very
dif ficult and a very dnedwr.
Harvey I
Do you think it has been a campwign inWVrbKdiryfrTi~ Ii, haveplayed
any sort of Fart on either side of the fence? IC'a n' t* hikin
gpecifically of that incident~ the other day when a group of. LiberkL, a
supporters caused Mr. Hayden there was-a-great des +: ef , trouble
in one of his street walks, in fact he immediately canqelled thieam.,-
Have you been able to find out, by the way, if that wasg delibeiaOs
organised by the Liberal Party?
Prime Minister
I do not believe so. I have spoken to-people-i---ttre-areia;---IF air, I
I have been told that there was just -an -operation ha ndinq ouit-
Liberal tickets not meetings, but just handing out Liberal ticket
and Liberal liter~ ature and that thooseLabor-Parpeople-Wiao
wsoemreeh omwo smtleyt farnodm colausthseidde. thI ed oe lencotto kranotew -h'ocwam teh aat looncgc. u rrTehdei.,.~ twO bodie1
No attempt to bring back the politics of fear and d ivisiont . that
we saw_ n 1922.--
Prime Minister
I haivebeen Isubjfet ' to more violence, more attempted i ntimid. t ion,
I think than any other present politician--Sir RobertI.. 6ensa4-ea'
Harvey, 1] 7I7D78O0 4-
Harvey As does an opposition Leader.,
Prime situationi in which violence or the threat of violence da':
prevent that. I looked at the televiSton-.. h as i etoe h
news at that time and certain ly those telIvision cAii~ bd enot
picked up very much..
Too much emphasis on telelvision has been a recurring thexitjI
think by critics of election campaigns over the years. What -do*
you thi-Ui1-of the politics of personality this time around?'
Prime minister
think-ej. g-t ions always ought to be . operated4 the Q
policies, because it is policies that are going to determiine'the..,
future of Australia. When I have criticised the Austrdlian _ Labot_'-
Party I have sought to do it, as I believe, 0n the ba: 4ssof
. policies. 1: think Mr. Hayden trying: to bring my incometa
return into the matter and making implicatione. or innuendosin
the way in which he originally did it T-mean_, heitxille
wants to do it because it is done in the United-States, hu that.
was a latter day justification I think. He had said " there arareports,
there are rumours" about Fraser and the TaxatioiOffico
and whatever, and challenging me to try-and cer,~.-p WUthat
was just plain. low, scurrullous politicsi.-.
Wmell-that gets aack to that-dirty tricks thing. . ii
Prime Minister
Well,--that is-dirty tricks if you like, But there have beo~
other elements. I was on a talk-back programe this morningiwd
I had some of the tapes of for example, Mr. Wran playA# bak
to me things that he has said. Let me just give a couple. of
examples. H~ e said that Caucus had not control over a -La1or, l eader,.-
that a Labor leader-made the ecisions-WranasPeir
knows that he must do what his Caucus tells, him. Hie a1006 kn~ w tha
if and when that Caucus tells Mrdffayden to implement wealtht~ e
and capital gains taxes on the assets and savings of AU9i=. ahiari.--.:,.
families, it does not matter what Mr. Vayden says, he would ha'V/ e.
to-' do it, or ship out. How -Mr. -Wrfra-as a Labor -Premisr, -can. get,--A
up and say that Caucus' do not have a say in these things, 140t
abare-f aced untruth. -Many things like that have been. 044in
this particular campaign. Again, Mr. Wran said he was going tosl
his house, and no way would there be a capital gains tax -on -that.
But Mr. Hayden had given the exampl of pu! uzrL pki-peo'ra.
house, and the sale price for the hoause, -in explaining how acap14,6
gains tax would work. ' So how M4r. Wran, who Is* not'going to be thei
to-influence policy hie I suppose one day will go back to beinc
Premier of this State and do the job -he is paid for -can get ' up'and I
Harvey, 15/ 10/ 80
Prime Minister ( continued)
eay " no, not on houses", when Mr. Haydenv has ' said--quite plainly_
yes, It will be on houses, again seems to me to be a barefaced
Untruth. There has been a lot of this.
Ha rve~ y
You are calling them liars, Why ncat say
Prime Min'ister
i am not using that word. They use
Harvyx That is the implication
Prime Minister
That is the implication, certainly. it.
Ha rvey
Well why not say it?
Prime minister
Be-c-ause rI-Thibt like Using that term. I think it debases 1
the political debate. There has been a tactic of the Australian-
Labor Party over years, when they do not like a policy, W; hen they
do not like a fact, when they do not like something I sayi they
just say " that is a lie, that is a deliberate lie". But that ' is
not the rebuttal of the argument. People who uee those eius*'
generally do it because they do not have an ana-wer to the arguimumt
itself. I wouild sooner resgond to these things -instead of-caliling
Mr. Wran a liar over that Caucus remark, just remind pepple2 of.-
-th-e facts, which everyone knows when it is-brQug~ ht to-the i
attention: that Caucus' do control Premdere or" Labor Pin 1ps~.
Then' the people can read the imPlications tor themselves. twil
rebutt argument with argument, But on so many, occasions -the
Labor Party have not. They have resorted to the use of. hose
terms -lie, lie -because they-do not have an answer..
~._ yo6 could start -the6 campaign again, wh! aq -wtd yudodfe~&-
~ it the reasons for. queictlon
is the worse campA ign. I have ever geiyi
stiff. prime minister
No. I made that statement during that week that there waes. l1o. t t
of complacency around and there was a lot of complacency . xiw. id
There was a universal acceptance that the Government ' would getback
with a large majority. Then the polls started to come out,
shaking that complacency out of the hair. But r had detec-ted-. that;
5
Harvey, 15/ 10/ 80 6
Prime Minister( continued)
before the polls came out, as you know. I was worried about
it because I know quite well you do not fight polls or elections
in that sort of frame of mind. That affects if people are.
complacent like that if affects your whole organisation. Thereis
an interaction then between politicians. The campaign.
since then I think. has gone in a lively way. it has been well
organised. It-e-etting out-amongst the people, and quite a
different scene.
Harvey But the polls-are sti+ 4-very bad-feE-you. This time in ' 77
they were starting to indicate a Liberal win. Why is it still
going wrong?
prime Minister
I think you would have to ask the polla-that and ask the people
who are putting their mark on a bit of paper, but I believe very
strongly that on Saturday the result will come out right. I
-believe it for this reason
Har-vey
Tight? Prime Minister
Oh, it might be tight, but I believe it will come out right,
because people are not going to take a risk with their future.
They know what happred from-9-72 to 1975. They can see now
let's just use Labor's own figures they can see
Harvey You keep digging up Whitlam.
Prime Minister
But the policies are the same, that is why The only diffetne I
is. the leader. The policies are the same, the -ersonneLa7 õ l i
largely the same. Not all, but larqel. : That'is the; nAitat nI
thing. Bicj spending, hands off the unions,. and we have aeedW j'isatin
the last couple of days today how the unions arestartinqgo
dictate already-the tere-of-twhat a-Labor Government could' dr . wo6e 1-
do. I
Harvey.. But why isn't thi-getting-ttr ugh to -people? Why aren't they -I
believing you? 7
Hiarvey, 15108
Prime Minister
Wbhat.. has hapganid over the course of this last week -I -think
these things are starting to crystall. ise in people's minds n'ow.
They just do not seem to have emerged. They have been spoken. about
often enough. I have spoken about the trad6 unions. But there
has been more discussion in the media about polls than the:-
substance of the issues. It has taken thiA-long for the issuesto
start to-comne through, Even on their own figures, massivte:
increases in spending. They have promised a total costing but
they have not given us a total costing. Then, tax cuts which
cannot be funded, which would be lost very qikic~ ly through-higher
inf lation; and an approach to tUade unions that-would ee_-tainly
lead to runaway wage pressures again-and lack. of campetitiv* nas
in Australian industries. That is not just a qluestion -of being9.
concerned for business, it is being concerned for the people Who
will be employed because unless we sell Australian-made goods
all around -the worj -WeF will no~ t e employing Auatralians.
Now, people know that high inflation will destroy that baset.
These issues, together with thke threat of highier taxation--even
in the last_ 24 hours" Mr. Hfa * 1e has added one fur-ther confusio1 to
the capital gains tax, wealth argument by saying that the.
purpose of the Royal Coimmission is only to determine at what-level
these taxei start. That is just anothek confusion, because'. thej
went into this campaign with a firm policy to levy thase taxes.'
Mr. Hayde e-have toa-h4ave them, they are overdue, and we need them
to avoid jacking up old taxes. And they are his words, not mine.#
Then, because they start to be unpopular they start to withdraw
from these kinds of taxes. So, you are left with their economic
policy in a total shambles; additional expenditure not funded
and therefore inflationary; -haids-off approach to the. unidn'st.'
and that again, scares people becausethey.. know-what unt~ m. d4 d'
will do to this economy-and to the prospects of employ ing. More
people; and an approach to tAxation which I believe man-'
Australian families are now staxting to regard as totall
terrifying, To tax at housie, -aMsr . Eha-ydfe-igave the an-1-
you buy a house for something, you aell. it for a higher.. prie
and to tax the difference. To tax the homes and the-aissetsof
Australians. it is all very well to suggest now that they mighit
ciJit for a little while. They have said so persisently-arid
so often that they are going to do it. And whatever Hr. -layden has
said, I do not believe be has the authority of Caucus for~ bis.'-:-.
backtracking, and that Labor Caucus -which would have. W iffreitcomposition.
anyway from the pr~ esent Caucus--,. can say t~ ii h
platfem~, it was in the policy, it is a firm' comnmitmentix d
it now.
Any worries!, at all, about.$ atutday 2
P'rime -Ministe~ r J
The one abiding thing I have always had in._ politics is My. faith,-
and belief in the commonsenee and decency of K5_ 0 taltan . m, 6r-an$.
women, and of their pride in Australia. If it was not fo. that1
r Would notr be in politics. Iwould get out and do som~ ffinfq' elee*
Hfarvey, 15/ 10/ 80 -8
Vrime-Minister ( continued)
But it is because of that belief, it is because of that,.
conviction, that I believe they will pu~ t this country f irst-6
I would only ask them one thing; when theyg9 0 itq that, polItn9:!
booth to vote, think of their familieti, anjd:* hink of. ut& i-
Harvey Lot me ask you what may seem a slightly frivolous questio.,:'
Prime Minister but it is important for those of us -at-
Channel Nine if you--could watch-an OlU3tion coverage on. t
Saturday night, as we will hope you will, which one would yixl
watch? Prime Minister
Well, speaking with you, I have got to say r -kouldwantr; to . Vtoh
yours*
okay. I was asked to ask that. As a matter of fact, w r
putting up a big screen in the Southern Cross for yoa, so you 7
can seei.