PRESS OFFICE TRANSCRIPT THURSDAY, APRIL 10 1980
PRESS CONFERE'ICE, CANBERRA
Prime Minister:
I though it might be useful if I called this confer6V.-ir r-ñ ation
to the Office of National Assessments because there h4beKa good
deal' of writing going on about the subject and a good deal of it
as far as I am aware anyway, is not accurate. There are some things
that are certainly inaccurate in relation to my own., views,. and in
fact, do not coincide with what Ihave publicly; stated in the
Parliament itself. It is worth recalling that the Office of National
Assessments was established as a result of one of the main
recommendations by Mr Justice Hope when he was looking at
Australia's security organisations. It was out of that recommendation
that the Office camne to be formed. Mr Justice Hope had drawn
attention to the fact that the Government didn't have one body
drawing together assessments from all the factual knowledge available
to government. The Joint Intelligence Organisation which had done
part of this work in the past was more narrowly based, more defence
orientated, and in modern circumstance, governments need assessments
on a much wider range of matters than ones that are purely defence
related. There are economic matters, political matters and a whole range
of subjects of importance to governments in the modern age where
information available to government needs to be assessed in as
impartial and objective atmosphere as is possible. That was the
reasons for the establishment of the Office of National Assessments.
I believe that the Office has undertaken that work well, and I also
believe that the basis and the nature of the assessments that are
available to government is much better, and much more broadly based,
than those that did come from the Joint Intelligence Organisation.
That in itself is not a criticism of JIO, because its charter was
different, it was a different kind of organisation. But, I wanted to
make the point that ONA came out of a recommendation by Mr Justice Hope,
that was d& e; igned to make sure that governmen'ts had available to them
the best possible assessments on a range of strategic, political and
economic matters that are important to governments when they come
to decisions on a wide variety of subjects.
So much for background. The role of ONA is important. It will continue
to be important. I think it has filled its task well, and the quality
of its assessments have been good. We all know there are problems
at the present time, but I have got confidence in the way the
Director General is handling those particular problems. It was he
called in ASIO to examine certain matters. There will be a report.
The Director General, I have no doubt, will act upon that report
as-* he thinks fit. I do know he is concerned to get to the truth of
the matter, and that any decisions need taking as a result of it,
well then they will be taken.
But, I went over to the Office of National Assessments this afternoon
to tell the numbers of the office very much what I have told you
that I have confidence in what they are doing, it has been important
to government, and that the work is necessary and must continue, and
that I have confidence in the way the work has, been undertaken. I do
not believe that there has been or I am certainly not conscious of
major attempts by people in Foreign Affairs, for example, to get at
the Office of National Assessments.
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Prime Minister: ( Cont
One of the factors that that has been related to in the writings
is what has happened to Afghanistan and the possibility of different
assessments in relation to that. But, people in the Department of
Foreign Affairs have seen detente very much go out the window
with the Russian invasion of. Afghanistan. The advice coming to us
overall, has been pretty rugged and pretty determined in relation
to what Australia might do.
People, and I have said this in the Parliament, might vary on the
Soviet's reasons for going into Afghanistan, but there is certainly
no difference between the government and the government's advisors
on the dangers and the consequences that flow out of that invasion
and-occupation of Afghanistan. Whatever their motives for going there,
as I said in that first statement, the consequences are more important
than motives for the first or actual move,-because it is agreed that
if new opportunities are likely to unfold, they will take advantage
of it. If opportunities don't unfold, they are also prone to create
themn. But, in a sense, for today, that is by the way.
What I did want to say, is that I have confidence in Bo. Furlonger
as Director -General, I have conf idence in the of fice., Tey:-have served
the Government well -There are difficulties at the present time. I
am confident of Mr Furlonger's capacity to overcome those difficulties,
He has the authority to do so, and I know he has the determination to
do so.
Question: Prime Minister, have you made that declaration because you fear that
stoiies over the past week have damaged ONA?
Prime Minister:
It is not a question of fear. Quite obviously the sort of stories
that have occurred are damaging, and there is a likelihood that there
will be more stories. There will be stories over the weekend I would
imagine, and Michelle, you won't mind me saying it, but the story in
the middle of the Age today was one whidh made me think that perhaps.
I ought to move as I have done to speak to people in the office
itself and to have this press conference, because within my
knowledge, much of that story is just not accurate. And I am not
picking up the Age but it just happened to be on the front page
and it happened to be written today. I think it is very hard for
people who basically don't speak to the media, they are not able
to get on their own feet and defend themselves, that the Prime Minister
might be after elements in the office about this or about that. They
wonder what the truth is. They wonder then, perhaps, whether the
Government does hold the office in high regard, or whether it doesn't,
and they wonder whether we feel that they have in fact been fulfilling
a role as the Government originally determined as a result of
Mr Justice Hope's report.
So, that is the reason I went over to the Office of National
Assessments. It is also the reason why I am holding this press
conference. Question: What do you actually see as the difficulties. in the office at the
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Question: ( cnt.)
moment, and I would ask you to be specific on that because you are
saying what you want to avoid is inaccurate speculation about the
office....
Prime Minister:
The difficulties I think are largely internal to the office.
Mr Furlonger might like to comment about that, but the things that
I think can be very damaging and make life very difficult and
painf ul f or members in. the of fice is when they read things about my
attitudes, my motives, things that I am alleged to have said or
other Ministers might have said about the worth of the office
and this sort of thing. That I think is something which has been
written. It looked as if it was going to go on being written because
of some questions that had been put into my office this morning, so
I thought I ought to try and stop it.
As far as I am concerned, it is just not true.
Question: How do you view, then, the loss of whatever it is, lost, of a
top secret document, a highly confidential document?
Prime Minister:
Obviously Mr Furlonger regards that as serious or he would not have
called in ASIO and advised me after he had called in ASIO. I state
that in that order to show that the Director General hims~ lf regarded
it as a very serious matter and acted upon it, and advised me of what
he had done. I also, obviously, regard it as a serious matter, but
I have also said that I am confident in the way the Director General
is handling the matter.
Question: Justice Hope, six months ago, publicly warned the Government in a
report to Parliament that there was a lack of security within
Government Departments. HE-didn't name them, he specifically spelled
out the security of handling documents. Six months later we find
out that a top security document has disappeared. Surely you must
be more than concerned?
Prime Minister:
I have already said that I regard it as serious. The Director General
regards it as-serious -He called in ASIO as a result.
Question: You said the problems in ONA are mainly internal. How does the loss
of a classified secret document an internal problem?
Prime Minister:
It happened within matters Bob, you might like to answer that, but
it seemed to me that it occurred out of events within the organisation
itself. I think it also plain that there have been one or two....
Question: . you could say that about the inaudible., case, couldn't you?
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Prime Minister:
Well, you could say it about one or two personality problems within
the office and I think that is what I was referring to. Obviously
the loss of a document of that kind is one I have already said ' I
regarded as serious, and it must be a concern to the government as such
But it is also important to know whether or not I have confidence in
the way the matter, up to this point is being handled.
Question: Do you think the document was lost, or do you think this was the
act of some internal saboteur?
Prime Minister:
I am not going to try and pre-empt what ASTO might have in its
report. Question: Does the personal expression of confidence that you gave to the
ONA this afternoon extend to each individual member of the office?
Prime Minis ter:
It extended to the organisation as such, and the work that the
organisation and its members as such, as a collective body of people,
have been undertaking.
Question: Do you believe that the two ONA officers who provided information,
to the Labor Party were acting in a disloyal fashion? Can you tell
us, what'if any, action has been taken against those officers
and can you tell me whether you are happy with the action that has
been taken or the lack of action if no action has been taken?
Prime Minister:
I think if you read my statement in the Parliament on that you would
have an answer to most of those questions, because I made it
perfectly plain in that statement in the Parliament, the nature of
the advice that they had passed on to an officer * of the library which
would seem to be not consistent with the basis of other things that
are written in other places, or for that matter, would seem to be
not consistent with the sort of speeches that came out of the
Opposition, and the nature of the advice that was given by those
two officers to the officer of the library, was written down in
their own terms and signed by them. So they made it perfectly plain
what they had said. Any question of disciplinary matters is a matter
for the Director General, but I did say in that statement, that I
regarded the fact that when they were challenged about what they
had done, they made it perfectly plain, there was no attempt to hide
it, and made a full statement of what had occurred, why, the
motivation, and of what they had said, as a mitigating circumstance.
Any question of any other action is for the Director General.
Question: Can you tell us what action has been taken by the Director General?
Prime Minister:
Disciplinary matters are matters for the people in charge of the
officers concerned, and I would prefer that Mr Furlonger answer that
question if he wants to.
Mr Furlonger:
Prime Minister, I would say that I have taken certain additional
action, but I don't think I am prepared to say publicly what that
action is.
Question: Could you say how much progress has been made in trying to relocate
the document?
Mr Furlonger:
No, I can't at this stage comment on the ASIG investigation. I think
it will take another week possibly. I am not sure yet just how long
will take. But I do want to make it clear, as the Prime Minister ha~ s
said, it was my initiative that caused ASIO to come in, and my only
objective is to get at the truth, and when we know what the truth
is, then I Will consider what further action, if any, needs to be
taken. Question: Do you deny, categorically, the reports that there is a faction
fight Wi thin ONA, that you are under seige from various other
intelligence organisations and that the reports we have read
are that ONA is divided into various factions w~ hich are trying
to knock each other ofcf?
Mr Furlonger:
I think that if you look at the statement made by all the ONA
staff the other day, which was a united statement, made in support
of me and in support of the organisation, and in support of ONA,
and in which they denied that there were any factions, I think that
that answers that question.
In so far as other intelligence bodies are concerned, it is not true
that there is tension existing between ASIO and JIO and the other
bodies. We have very good co-operation with all the other intelligence
agencies,-and I expect that to continue.
Question: Mr * Furlonger, what was the time period between you'calling ASIO
and when you believe the document went missing?
Mr Furlonger:
No, I am not prepared to comment on the matters that will be covered
in the ASIO report.
Question: Are you willing to tell us when you see the report, whether you
will let us know, the Prime Minister let us know, in broad outline ./ 6
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Question: the conclusions..
Prime Minister:
I don't think we can pre-empt the result of the report. It might
recommend aftion it might not. I think we have got to get that report
and then make a judgement about it
Question: But can you tell us when you get it, can you give us an outline
when it is completed and when you get it?
Prime Minister:
T hat -is asking me to make a judgement before I know what is
likely to be in the report. I would sooner get that particular report
and then see-how it would be best handled.
Question: Except that you are giving a very fulsome expression of confidence
in general in ONA today, can you tell us in a week or whenever this
report is ready, whether you still feel that that is justified?
Prime Minister::
Let's see what happens then. Noone has suggested that there aren't
some problems. There obviously are. And I haven't suggested that there
aren't some problems. What I have had confidence in and do, is the
nature oJf: the work that ONA has done, the kind of assessments that
they have provided to government ' s on a wide range of matters and
as I believe, of high quality. That doesn't mean to say the government
agrees with all parts of it. You get assessments, you get advice.
Governments have to make their own decisions. But that is the nature
of it. In relation to the current problems, I have confidence in
what the-Director General has done to this point in handling those
particular matters, and I support him in doing' that. He didn't ask
that he should do this or that, he has taken his own action in
relation to it within his own responsibility. And I support that.
I think it is important, therefore, to have clearly in mind, what
we are talking about and what has been said, because there are
problems. The extent of action, if any that will need to be taken,
will depend significantly upon that report that comes from ASIO.
But, I do remember the time when governments did not have the kind
of cons -erted assessment machinery that is now provided by ONA, and
the advice that then came to governments was much inferior in some
cases it was entirely absent.
There is one other way that the Office of National Assessment
works which I think we might have forgotten. In relation to economic
matters, there is an economics assessment board which has representative!
of Treasury and other people on it, and while the Director General
has final authority for the assessment that comes forward, I am not
aware of clashes, between the various assessments board on economic
matters or the general assessments board, the national assessments
board which includes officers from Foreign Affairs and JIO.-/ 7
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Prime Minister: ( Cont.)
So, in the assessing machinery itself, it is not ONA standing apart,
the machinery draws in the operative departments or instrumentalities,
in areas where their advice and expertise is necessary. I think that
is something which has been a little forgotten in discussing ONA,
maybe something secluded in a part, in fact, it is not.
Question: inaudible... problems usually exist within ONA?
Prime Minister:
There is the problem of lost document to start with.
Question: You said problems. What are the other problems?
Prime Minister:
I think it is very plain that there have been some problems
involving people.
Question: Would these include disloyal elements?
Prime Minister:
Look, you are using those sorts of words. I am not going to use
that sort of word.
Question: With the ASIG investigation, is it empowered merely to track down
this document or examine material handling procedures within ONA,
or is it also empowered to examine the source of some of these
stories that are * appearing in the media and wi~ ich you say are
inaccurate? Prime Minister:
Mr Furlonger commissioned the inquiry, so perhaps he had better
answer that.
Mr Furlonger:
I have asked ASIO to first of all, look into all the circumstances
surrounding the missing document, and that could well lead them to
a fairly wide f ield. I have also asked them to review our security
procedures, and I made it plain to them that I don't interpret their
investigation in a narrow, legalistic kind of sense. I want a full
inquiry that will get to the bottom of all the circumstances that
relate both to the missing document and to our own security proceedings
Question: would you say that in that case, in the future, officers of ONA will
not be allowed to answer inquiries from politicians other than / 8
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Question: ( cont.)
responsible ministers, or that they will not any longer be allowed
to answer inquiries from the Parliamentary library or similar
organisations? Prime Minister:
The library has its own rule, and it makes its own, that it is meant
to get advice from sources where the advice is publishable. That is
a library, and if you want to question that rule you should go to the
library...
Question: whether the ONA'advice-* is publishable in a sense.
Prime Minister:
Basically, their assessments are not publishable.
There are specific ways in relation to the opposition for example,
or for that matter, other members of Parliament if they are going to
get access to the assessments, but for the leader of the opposition,
the deputy leader of the opposition if they ask for a briefing on
various matters, I'would have thought it would be given. I don't
know of an occasion when briefing has been refused, but in fact,
most of the briefings have come when the facilities have been of fered. 1
There seems to be an incapacity in the opposition to ask.
Question: use the results of that briefing in Parliamentary speeches in the
same way as they would be allowed to use the results of the
Parliamentary research service.
Prime Minister:
Obviously, a lot of the work that ONA does and the briefings if they
are to be as full as possible, depend upon c)~ assified material, which
is not publishable.
Question: Do the internal problems that you referred to earlier include any
expressions of concern or any complaints at all from any country
outside Australia...
, Prime Minister:
No. None that have reached me at all.
Question: Two questions -you said in the Parliament that these people only
provided unclassified material to the library. That means that it is
publishable, doesn't it, if it is unclassified?
Prime Minister:
well,, it if is unclassified.. / 9
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Question: If it is unclassified, would it be publishable?
Prime Minister:
Unclassified would be publishable, if ihat it all that it is.
Question: I am quoting you there, so what they gave the library...
Prime Minister:
I hope you are quoting me accurately.
Question: you used the word unclassified in Parliament, you defended these
people. You said presumably what they gave to the library was
publishable. Prime Minister:
No, I think that you are doing it the wrong way around, because,
basically, the kind of judgement that anyone working closely in
ONA has access to classified information. It is not a question of I
the leader of the opposition having access to briefings. He has
got access.
Question: I am not thinking of the leader of the opposition, I am thinking of
the Parliamentary library.
Prime Minister:
It is their own rule about publishable material so if you want. to
question that then you go to them for it.
Question:* My second question is going to be did you have any role in the
bouncing of Jim Dunn?
Prime Minister:
No, none. You probably knew about it before I did.
Question: You have already made a public statement about the transfer of
Mr Andrew CarphVell from ONA. Why will you not publicly define the actions
being taken against him unnamed inaudible?
Mr Furlonger:
I think I prefer not to comment.
Question: I think it is a curious situation because we are told-that some action
10
Question: ( cant.)
against them, the Prime Minister has made a statement to Parliament
about it, yet we are not informed what sort of action has in fact
been taken. I mean, I would have thought this was a fairly serious
issue. Have these people been disciplined or haven't they?
If they have been disciplined, what has happened to them?
Mr Furlonger:
Well, they have been disciplined but it is an internal public service
matter, and
Question: So was Andrew Campbell. and yet you made a public statement which some
people thought was libellous. So what is the difference?
Mr Furlonger:
I think I would prefer not to talk about Andrew Campbell at this point
in time.
Question: Can you tell us why you differentiate between the two cases?
It seems quite illogical to me, and I think to everyone else
here to Condemn one man and explain what has happened about him,
yet you won't do the same in the case if this fellow.
Mr Furlonger:
Well, you used the word libellous, and that is one reason for-not
talking about Andrew Campbell.
Question:
But the other two are unnamed so that doesn't figure in the
consideration there, surely.--
Mr Furlonger:
I think I would prefer to leave this question of the other two.
Let's see what comes out of the ASIO report. We-will look at the
totality then, and what further action may or may not need to be
taken. Question: Is there a link between this missing document and the two people?
Mr Furlonger:
I am not suggesting Anything.
Question: Obviously you are btinging us into the position where on the one.
hand this press conference is called because of ambiguities and
misunderstandings and inaudible misrecording because we are not
given all the information on all the folk. Now, with respect to
both of you, and if we are on a question such as this, given factual
11
Question: ( cant.)
answers, it is going to continue and it is your fault.
Mr Furlonger:
Well, we can't give you all the facts until ASIO's report is complete.
Question: but what we have done to these two , urely, you must know
that, Mr. Furlonger?
Prime Minister:
Normally if there is a disciplinary matter for an officer in charge
of an instrumentality, and members of the staff, members of the
public service, that is a matter for the public service. If the
officers themselves wish to appeal against any disciplinary matter
there are provisions to appeal in the public service it is not
normal for public statements to be made about this.
Question: There was one though made about Andrew Campbell.
Official: Thanks very much.
Question: Can we askyowl. et4-her you are going to Salisbury, Prime Minister.
Prime Minister:
Yes. Question: You are going?
Prime Minister:
Yes. Question: Do you care to say more about that before we leave?
Prime Minister:
I will be leaving next Tuesday and will back on Saturday or Sunday
week. Question: Are you going anywhere else?
Prime Minister:
No./ 12
12
Question: How long will you be in Salisbury?
Prime Minister:
Two nights.
Question: I will just ask one more question on ONA. There have been quite
a few stories about how this so called Belgrade document which is
supposed to refer to a group of people operating inside ONA. I was
wondering whether you are aware of such a document?
Prime Minister:
No.