PRESS OFFICE TRANSCRIPT TUESDAY,. MARCH 4 1980
INTERVIEW ON MIKE WILLESEE AFGHANISTAN
Film clip of Mr Hayden on Willesee, March 3, 1980:
" We resent very much the way Mr Fraser is prepared to
misrepresent, distort, in the most vigorous way, what we stand
for.
Willesee: When have you ever gone so far in Parliament as to call somebody
of Mr Fraser's level, a liar, lacking integrity, lacking in
integrity, lacking in ethics, honesty, virtue, desperate and
unprincipled I mean, it was an enormous attack Et was an
emotional attack.
Mr Hayden:
Sure, and it was an enormous misrepresentation on the part of
Mr Fraser.-It was a massive assault against* tue -Labor Party
a despairing effort by a desp-arate man. Everyone in the backbench
behind as well as the frontbench reacted the way I did. They were
furious. It was outrageous what Mr Fraser did. Mr Fraser has never
been under any doubt as to how I feel about him or indeed the
Labor Party. He is easily the richest, the meanest and the most
unscrupulous Prime Minister this country has every had, and I
make no apologies about saying that.
( End of film clip)
Willesee: That is an unusually strong attack, and when Mr Hayden made that
last night I countered by sat ing that we would give the Prime Ministe
a right of reply, and the Prime Minister is in our Canberra studio
right now in Parliament House. Let's cross to the Prime Minister,
Mr Fraser. Thanks for.-coming in, Mr Prime Minister.
Prime Minister:
Thank you very much.
Willesee: What do you say to that?
Prime Minister:
I don't really think I want to say anything to it because I believe
the language was extreme and quite unjustified. I would like to
talk about the policies surrounding these particular matters
because I think it is important that they be discussed, and I
regret very greatly the kind of language that has been used in the
Parliament, and apparently in other places also.
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Willesee: So none of those particular words worry you to the extent that
you would like to reply to them?
Prime Minister:
I don't like them,, Of course, I don't. But if I was going to
want to reply to the slightly unkind things that are said about
me from one week to the next, or one year to the next
Willesee: More than slightly...
Prime Minister:
I know that but, is that my typical understatement perhaps?
I think we could have a profitable discussion about issues. I also.
believe that anything I have said about the Australian Labor Party
on this issue has been accurate, can be demonstrated to be so,
but that again doesn't help to get to a public understanding of the
issues which are of vast and enormous importance to the future of
all the Australian people.
Willesee: But that's the whole problem, isn't it? The issue has been obscured
by the rhetoric and the emotional outbursts in Parliament.~.
Prime Minister:
I think it has and I am now trying to say, " Let's talk about the
issues" because the issues are important.
Willesee: Do you concede that you might have gone too far on your part in
that emotional rhetoric?
Prime Minister:
Have you looked at the. Parliament, the record, the Hansard?
Willesee: I have read it all, and I have read it all with great repetition
because you said it many times.
Prime Minister:
Said what many times?
Wille see:
Well, in particular your attitude of the Labor Party having a thread
in it or a part of it which was, to paraphrase, soft on the Russian
invasion of Afhganistan. ./ 3
-3
* Prime Minister:
I think the words I used were ' finding excuses for or reasons why
we should do nothing'. The thing that is puzzling me about this,'
in part, is that while the Labor Party condemn the invasion of
Afghanistan just as vigorously as anyone else, so there is agreement
about that, but while Mr Hayden also says that an effective boycott
of the Olyrtipic Games will bring the message home to the Soviet
government and people, more effectively than anything else, then
he and the Labor Party won't work for it. And I believe that if
you condemn what the Soviets have done, as we all do, and if you
then believe that an effective boycott of the Olympic Games
would bring this message home to the Soviet government, but
even more important than that, to the Soviet people, in an
effective and realistic way, then I think there is a moral
obligation to work for that effective boycott.
Willesee: Let's start with what went wrong with our Australian leaders.
You agree that you both have that commonality, what went wrong?
Let's start with you. What did you do that was wrong?
Prime Minister:
Is this going to be a programme for self confession? Quite
seriously..
Willesee:-if I could be constructive, Mr Prime Minister you can't get
that bi-partisan non-political approach unless you both concede
some error.
Prime Minister:
I am trying to make it as easy as possible by emphasising the
points in which the parties are in agreement. I have been making
the point that if one thinks that in an effective boycott of the
Olympic Games will get the message through to the Soviet government
and people, and there is agreement on that, why then is it so hard
to work for that effective boycott. You see, on all the earlier
statements Mr Hayden had made, I believe there was every juqtificatior
for believing that the Australian Labor Party would support the
Government in working for these things. There have been, as I
believe, a very large number of countries around the world that
take the same view, where the governments are working for an
effective boycott, ironically, the leader of the Opposition,
the Labor leader of the Opposition, in New Zealand is saying that
Mr Muldoon should be stronger on the issue and work more effectively
for a boycott, so, it is not something where people are necessarily
divided on philosphical or party grounds...
Willesee: divided on the boycott issue, aren't they?
Prime Minister:
But not between countries.' am mak-ing the point..
Willesee: . Australia..
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Prime minister:
In Australia no I think in the wider community people have views
on this issue quite irrespective of their party political affiliations.
Wille see:
Well, could you have done better, and I hope I am saying it
constructively, by talking to the Labor Party, before you
proposed the boycott?
Prime Minister:
Again, having in mind the fact that Mr Hayden had also said that an
effective boycott would get the message home, through , to the Soviet
govern-ment and people, and that was one of his first statements
on the question of boycotts. I would have thought that one could
expect that that would therefore be worked for by the Australian
Labor Party, and I am puzzled, and remain puzzled as. -to why they
don't. Willesee: You have become upset, and I can understand i-t about the emotive
issue of wool from your property, Nareen, going to Russia, becausein
logic it is not relavent. But, in emotive terms, of course,
it has become highly irrelevant highly relevant, I'm sorry...
Prime Minister:
You were right the first time, but for the purposes of the interview,
you have got to say, relevant.
Willesee: Yes, but, is that the real problem? Emotion? Is that what gave the
Labor Party the chance to bat you around the head?
Prime Minister:
If they took that Course because they thought they could bat
me around t42 head over wool sales, well then, quite obviously,
there was never an opportunity of getting a bi-partisan policy,
because, a couple of points have been known by the Australian
Labor Party for a long while. One, almost an irrelevancy.:. that
wool was sold before the war began. But also, by the time they
started to attack Fraser, for wool that was alleged to be his
but had been sold before the occasion and therefore wasn't mine.
And people know how the auction system works you put your wool
into the ring and anyone of 200 people buy it. You don't know
where it goes that, in this case,, all happened before the war
began the invasion of Afghanistan. Even before they started to
talk about that, they had said that a boycott of trade with the
Soviet Union wouldn't work., and especially for farm products.
It would be dangerous and unfortunate if we went down that path.
So, they had already put themselves against a boycott on trade
matters. Willesee: You're talking political sophistication. The people in the street
who we work hard to keep in touch with., and we have done several
street surveys on this matter people talk in simple terms-
Willesee: ( cont.)
the athletes are being punished, but Malcolm Fraser can sell wool
and make some money.
Prime Minister:
Can I make a couple of points about that, because the Australian
Labor Party had said, and you don't want me to look up the quotes
but I have brought them in with me if you want it, from Mr Hayden
and from others, which show that they were opposed to a boycott
of trade, especially opposed to a boycott of farm produce.
Willesee: We accept that.
Prime Minister:
All right, you accept that...
Willesee: Mr Prime Minister, if I could interrupt, I really would like you
to address yoarself to the people who take that simple approach,
well why should the athletes be punished and Malcolm Fraser can
sell his wool or other traders can trade. That's the thing that
sticks in-the mind...
Prime M inister:
. on the basis of all traders, and let's deal then with the trade
position. There is no point and Mr Hayden again was
right in this in Australian pursuing trade sanctions which are
not going to be supported by other countries and other places.
What we-are doingon trade matters is just as vigorous as anything
that other countries are doing. We have said that we will support
a list of strategic gc-! ids and whatever is on that as part of the,
European approach to these particular matters, if additional
goods, if commodities happen at some future time to get put
on that list, then obviously we take note of it, but at this
point they haven't, and there is no point. As Mr Hayden has said,'
in pursuing a trade boycott, which the Russians will-get around
because they will buy it somewhere else, and which no other country
is trying to pursue...
Willesee: So you are saying that if it is going to hurt them you will stop,
if it is just going to hurt us, there is no point?
Prime Minister:
If it is just going to hurt us, if it is just going to hurt Australia
and it is not a question of wool growers.
Willesee: That is the simple message, isn't it?
Prime Minister:
Yes it is. / 6
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Willesee: That both of you are trying to say that really., hasn't got
across. Prime Minister:
Well, you say it again as you did it as you said it then.
Willesee: If it is going to hurt them, you take action. If it is simply
going to hurt us, you don't do it.
Prime Minister:
There is no point, and I think that is a very good way of putting~
it. But can I say something about the Olympic Games, and Why I
think that the boycott of the Olympic Games and why I think that is.
important. For two years, the Soviet government has built up
this issue to their own people. All the countries of the world
coming here. Their athletes, their countries paying homage to
the first Socialist state, as a mark of approval of the Soviet
government's foreign policies. Now, how do you get it home to
the Soviet people, that we don't approve of their foreign policy.
That is it putting the world on the brink of a great danger, flags
absent, athletes not appearing, all the Soviet experts that I
have discussed it with, and including Mr Hayden himself, have said
that this is the most effective way of getting the message through
to the Soviet government and people. It is a public thing it
can't be hidden.
Willesee: Yes, it is very difficult to argue with that. I think that maybe
you might agree that the problem is getting the message ' across
of domestic politics in Australia..
Prime Minister:
I think that you have done a great service in helping to get
that through in making that comment if it hurts the-Soviets,
you do it, if it just hurts us, we don't do it.
Wille see:
We are running out of time, Prime Minister, but I would like to
raise two points briefly. One, Mr Hayden did have a crack at you
last night. Do you think that he is under inordinate pressure?
Prime Minister:
I would have thought inevitably after the last weekend, and I
have thought, sometimes, that within~ his own-Party he-is under great
pressure. But, I don't want to reply in kind,. I really don't, and
I am not going to.
Willesee: All right, so I will leave it with one more question. Have you
been under inordinate pressure bear in your mind thie Parliamentary
performance and your clash with another television interviewer. / 7
7
Prime Minister:
I hope that you have read that interview, because I enjoyed it
nearly as much as I am enjoying this one. The worst pressure I
feel is when I am in . a Willesee interview to make sure that
it keeps moving and interesting and good humoured. Is that fair
enough Willesee: That will get in quotes of the week, I promise. The other point
is that if we are really fair dinkum. about a bi-partisan approach,
and surely that must be the way if we are serious about international
politics something of the magnitude of the Russian invasion of
Afghanistan you have failed so far to get that, Bill Hayden
has failed so far to get that, and I think the people expect it,
what can you do about it?
Prime Minister:
I think you gave the answer to that, by making it perfectly plain
that Mr Hayden was pursuing the dual question of-Olympics coupled
with trade, because of the fact that I grow wool gave him the
bat to belt me around the head with, and so you gave the answer
to it, because if he hadn't taken hold of that bat to knock
me on the-head with, if he hadn't seen that opportunity, I think.
he would have been taking quite different attitudes to a number
of these questions, and would have followed through on his original
statements a boycott of the Games would be effective, a boycott
of trade would be totally ineffective.
Willesee, ' if you could see a situation where both you and Mr. Hayden could speak
unemotionally to the people of Australia and put your points of
view, and seek their reaction would you agree to that?
Prime Minister:
What do you mean? On the Willesee programme?
T,-illesee:
Yes, that would be ideal I would imagine. It hasn't worked in the
Parliament, has it.
Prime Minister:
No, but I don't really think it would work on your programme either
because you read out or you showed at the beginning of the programme
the sorts of things that Mr Hayden said about me.
Willesee: But if you say that then how can you really seriously seek a
bi-partisan non-political approach?
Prime Minister:
Again I think you gave the answer to why that won't workc under the
current circumstances, and Mr Hayden has said some very stronq
things. I suppose I could adopt an approach which. Carlton tried to
adopt with Alex Jesaulenko, but I don't think that would work either
8
Prime Minister:
so I am not going to.
Willesee: That was very unAustralian.
Prime Minister:
What was unAustralian?
Willesee: Treating Jessa like that a great footballer.
Prime Minister:
I have got some divided loyalties. I am a very violent Carlton
supporter, but I am certainly going to have some soft spot for
St Kilda and Alex; Jesaulenko when he is playing.
Willesee: You have just lost 25,000 votes and picked up another 200,000, I think.
Prime Minister:
Which ones did I lose and which ones did I gain.
Willesee: You lost Carlton and you picked up St. Kilda.
Prime Minister:
Oh no, I didn'. t lose Carlton because I suspect that the large
number of Carlton supporters and barrackers-still have a great
affection for what Alex Jesaulenko has done for that club.
Willesee: How did. we get. onto the subject?
Prime Minister:
It's a question of keeping the interview moving.
Willesee-Also, Melbourne:. Tootballis a priority always.
Prime Minister:
Yes it is.
Willesee: But wouldn't you look I mean, a referendum is far too difficult,
but if you could have professionally conducted opinion polls...
Prime Minister:
You cannot conduct a foreign policy or a major matter of government.. / 9
9
Willesee: But this is a divisive community issue.
Prime Minister:
But you cannot conduct a major element of policy by the polls,
by an opinion poll or by a referendum, because a government
has got to make up its mind what it believes to be right. It then
has to argue for it, and argue as strongly as it can and as well
as it knows how, and that is the way it goes. On this particular
matter in which I have got the deepest of all possible convictions,
I think we need to support each other, independent nations of the
world, support the efforts of the United States and of the leading
countries in Europe to try and stop this world in the 1980s going
through the tragic and dangerous path that it took in the latter
part of the 1930s. If we believe that, if I believe. that, I can't
put it to a poll to judge it you know, a -Gallup Poll. I have
to argue for it because I believe it, and it is a fundamental
signficance to the future, the freedom and to the happiness of
every Australian.