PRESS OFFICE TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH CARL ROBERTSON NEWSWEEK
27 FEBRUARY 1980
Question
Newsweek is doing a major coverpiece on Australia and focussing
in part on your own statements and actions in the last couple of
months. There is no question in my mind that you are quite and
have long believed in the Soviet threat. But I wanted to get
stuck into more general questions about where you think Australia
is headed in 1980. Do you think Australia is going in a new
direction in the 1980s?
Prime Minister
I do not think in the sense of any radical change I would say no.
But I think the Australian economy has developed in strength and
depth and while the shortage has been difficult for all countries
including Australia, there is in a perverse kind of way a very
real advantage for us in what has happened in the energy area.
We do have good supplies of other forms of energy. We are not
self sufficient in oil as you know. But coal, uranium, natural gaswe
have more than we need for ourselves at the moment. Electricity
based on coal is very cheap in this country. Because we are a
resource rich and an energy rich country our export base is very
strong, keeping our economy run a bit tighter than some others with
inflation a bit lower than some others attracts more investment
to Australia. Coupled with our own due resources I think we are
going to see much better processing here. It is already happening
in the aluminium. industry, very substantially. It is going to be
cheaper for other countries to process minerals Australian based
energy. Question But do you think-' that the focus on energy will see you through
or sort of override commonly mentioned problems of the world
economy dangers?
Prime Minister
I think it will.
Question I think that to transcend that the fact that a lot of it is going
to be energy.
Prime Minister
Well obviously what happens will affect us. But four years ago we
made up our minds that we were not going to get much help through
an increase in trade, through an expanding world economy. If that
happens all right it will help us it will help everyone else.
But we saw inflation as being too high. We saw high inflation continuing in
too many countries. Therefore we said we have got to get our
inflation below other people's. We have got to get our manufactures
exported. We have got to get a larger share of existing markets.
We have got to develop Australia's minerals and energy resources
in a way that has not happened before. So if you like that is a
new direction or a new emphasis. Coupled with the strength of rural 2
Prime Minister.( continued)
exports, it really has placed Australia in a very strong position
as we enter the 1980s.
Question Do you think there's a chance of the manufacturing industries
being left behind a bit by the Government in minerals and primary
industries? Prime Minister
Manufacturing industries are very important as employers of
labour. And in the last year the physical volume of their exports
has gone up nearly 30 per cent. We are now exporting to a
remarkable number of countries including some labour intensive
things where we have a particular expertise. So we are not
defeatists or despondent about the future of manufacturing industries
as much as we might have been.
Question There's quite a debate on the new technology and how that's going
to ( inaud). Do you think enough is being done by if something
is sort of brought up and you see a full page letter in the paperbut
is doesn't seem to have created the sort of serious debate
that you would expect, because it seems to me that Australia is
well placed to take the new technology and make it an export item
as well.
Prime Minister
Well we are and~ ii think we have to. I do not believe any
advanced industrial country has got any choice other than to
embrace virtually all the new technology which comes their way,
which they can create or devise for themselves. This is not
really a new argument. New technology and the technology debate of
today is another form.-of the argument that occurred when the
Industrial Revolution started and people were frightened for the
future of cottage industries and frightened for the future of
employment." Industrialisation then led to a greater level of
employment than had ever occurred in an industrial state. What
we have to do is to look to the advantages of modern. technology;
producing things cheaper so you sell more of them, producing more
things and increasing people's standards, increasing the range
of products that-they will want to buy and thereby increasing the
numbers of jobs. If people just sit back in a defeatist way and
say if we had modern technology we can build that telephone with
less labour therefore-we won't have modern technology we will
end up by selling no telephones because somebody will be doing it
cheaper. So there is no option. New technology-opens new
opportunities for businessmen, for entrepreneurs. It opens new
markets and it is going to be up to those with inventiveness and
ingenuity, the capacity to go out and achieve things, to take
advantage of it. We have appointed a major committee under Professor
Rupert Myers, who is Head of a very technologically based
university, to advise us on the introduction of new technology and
those matters of particular application and of concern to Australia. 3
Prime minister ( continued)
I think it will be a very useful report and I-am not suggesting
that new technology should be introduced thoughtlessly from the
point of view of employees. There needs to be consultation.
There needs to be phasing in. There needs to training and retraining.
. Some industries have worked
out a good way of accommodating themselves to it and others not
so good. More progress to be made. None of that is an argument
against it. It is just the way you go about it.
Question There seems to be a glut of liberal arts type students on the job
market and a real shortage from what I have gathered during the.
initial story I did, a real shortage of skilled manpower. Is
there going to be more attention focussed on training and retraining.
I know some companies are quite innovative. Do you think anyone
in the Government is going to be doing something?
Prime minister
No we are doing quite a lot. Companies are encouraged to take on
more apprentices. Quite directly under Government training
programmes, by the end of this year and the last three or four
years over half a million young Australians mostly but not exclusively
young people, will have been given training under various training
programmes run by the Government in co-operation with industry.
And that is quite a large number. We are spending much more on
technically based college courses or Technical and Further Education,
as we call it. This again is designed to encourage those with
professional, technical skills. There are new programmes of
transition from school-to work. One of the things a number of us
believe is that the Secondary School system has become too academic
not enough attention is being given to thevocationally minded.
So in all of these areas there is certainly a role for Governments
working either for its own training programmes or in co-operation
with industry.
Question Why haven't the unions been more co-operative? I think they
realise as much as anybody else that it could be a very good time
in the 80s for Australia. Why aren't they except perhaps for
personal greed and wanting all the money for themselves.
Prime Minister
Sometimes unions are-remarkably short-sighted. Sometimes they are
remarkably conservative in the sense that they won't change their
habits. Some of the older people who can remember the difficult
times of the 1930s and they just say you know we've got a closed
shop, we've got a union membership it takes a long while to
expand that membership and therefore we're in a stronger bargaining
position. Others are just resistant to change. But some unions
are now coming to accept in some degree adult apprenticeship,
which is the really important thing.
Question Adult apprenticeship?
4
Prime Minister
To give a bloke of 30 or 40 or whatever an opportunity to gain
skills and have those skills recognised that they might have
missed out on because they did not get opportunities as kids.
Now up to the present most unions shut these people out. But
with patient negotiation hopefully we will overcome that. It is
a short-sighted view and in many ways it is a very conservative
view and a misplaced one, conserving the wrong things.
Question Self survival seems to be a big factor.
Prime Minister
I think it is but that is still short-sighted and selfish.
Quest ion
The defence, increase in defence expenditure you announced last
Tuesday it seems to have created quite a stir within the defence
and academic establishment the types that I have talked to.
And I think-that you are with Afghanistan onto an issue, for the
first time I think the Australian public is listening and talking
about defence as an issue. I think it's been pretty hard to raise
much interest before.
Prime Minister
Probably. In the recent past that would be true.
Question
But do you think you are going to be able to sustain an interest
in defence that you would need to sustain the massive capital
expenditure you'-re involved in.
Prime Minister
Well I think we are going to have to in peace time. We have never
been a country that spends very large sums on defence. But with
the expense of modern equipments we are going to have to spend
substantial sums. It still lifts defence spending to 3 per cent
of GDP, not above that. So by other larger nations' standards it
is not high. But the new programme will be 1.6-billion in
constant dollars over five years more than the previous guidance.
The defence vote will be rising in real terms between 5 and 7 per
cent a year instead'df-about' 2 per cent a year. In our terms
the increase is substantial. It will give us small but hard hitting
and effective forces. I think that is the position isn't it?
There has always been an underlying strength and interest in defence in
Australia and it does not take very much to bring it to the surface.
Question Moving to what some people would call a forward defence. What
expression do you use?
Prime Minister
No we used to have a so-called forward defence policy but that was
Prime Minister ( continued)
years ago when the British were very actively in Malaysia and we
were helping them there. These sort of slogans tend to depict a
policy wrongly simple because they try to do it much too briefly.
We are obviously interested in the security and peace of Asean and of our
own region.. Our forces are increasingly becoming equipped to
operate by themselves or equipped to operate with allies, using
very often allies logistics supply lines and now we believe we
have got to have a capacity to do things more on our own.
Question
Would you say that that's a lesson that Australia learned from the
Vietnam and the post Vietnam... . that you should be more independent.
I think that was something that you did stress in your speech last
week. as part of but independent.
Prime Minister.
Well it's partly that. But at the same time the British don't have
much of a presence left in Southeast Asia and they did have a
substantial one and therefore the option of operating with them or
alongside them is not as real as it once was. There have been
some perceptions of change in the United States policy. There was
the Guam Doctrine. We have never doubted the efficacy of the
Anzus Treaty. But at the same time we have* envisaged the possibility
of being involved in conflicts that are related to Australia's
security well we might have. to operate by ourselves. That might
be in a time scale in the distance. But it takes a long while to
build up the infrastructure and the basic support and the logistics
and the industry capacity for an independently operated force.
And we have been moving in this direction in spite of the difficulties
that very sophisticated equipments pose in terms of maintenance and
in terms of buying them and understanding them and all the rest.
We want to continue on that path. Because it does represent a more
independent national effort and gives us a greater degree of
independence in what we do, not necessarily tied to one ally or
another.. I think that ages and beyond that is the only approach
that makes sense for Australia. That doesn't mean to say that
allies are not important. Of course they are. But our own sense
of independence and ability to do things is also important.
Question That is in some ways a new development isn't it?
Prime Minister
Of it has come about over the'last ten years.
Question
You seem to be leading Australia. Has this always been your view
of what we've just been talking about you know developing your
independence, infrastructure,* logistics, manufacturing is that
something you have always felt.
Prime Minister
In defence certainly. And it certainly would have been from the
time I was Minister for Defence and maybe minister for the Army. 6
Prime minister ( continued)
But times change and the policies that were appropriate to this
place when I first came into the Parliament 25 years ago are not
necessarily appropriate today. You have got to be prepared to
adapt and adjust your policies and make them relevant and appropriate
to now and the future.
Question Do you see Australia as taking a more active role within the region?
Prime Minister
I think we are. We are certainly taking a much more active role in
the Pacific and that's important because they are small fragileeconomies.
They need some support and assistance. I think they
would much sooner have it from New Zealand or Australia than
countries further afield. But other people will do it and get a
leg in if we don't play our role. That obviously has strategic
consequences as well. In Southeast Asia we have always had an
active policy our overseas aid and defence aid has been concentrated
in that area and as I indicated the other day we are looking to see
if they are _ willing or would like to expand some of those relationships.
Question You ' ye expanded quite often in the past on the concept of the
Pacific Community something which was brought up during the
Ohira visit and I think it was something fairly concrete to come
out of the Ohira visit. Have you any more thoughts since that
Ohira visit you were especially that was in the early post
Afghanistan invasion days is there something you can talk any
more about in the United States or in the region?
Ptime Minister
No not really. I think the United States' position is that they
applaud the concept but would like others to be the front runners.
People have not really got in mind some sort of defence associationsocial,
economic, trade, cultural but a great deal more work
needs doing before you can put even bones on the. idea and then
flesh on the-bones. The concept is good and many people applaud it
but then you ask them what do you mean. How do you develop a
Pacific community that comprises nations of very diverse backgrounds,
culture, size, strength, geography. Japan on the one hand, the
small island states of the Pacific with a few thousand people total
population the Asean groups of nations you have got to make
sure that they don't. regard this concept as something that threatens
the integrity of that group and you would not want it to, because
the strength of Asean is very important. What is happening at the
moment is very careful soundings going on of the attitudes of other
countries and it will be dependent upon that whether or-not we go.
ahead with the seminar which Japan and Australia agreed would be a
good idea. We hope other countries will join us. But there are
some sensitivities. There are enormous differences between the
countries of the Pacific. In other words there isn't the kind of
natural affiliation that you would have got from the European
Community for example. That is not. depreciating the idea, that is
just saying that it needs working on. 7
Question I understand the American Ambassador to Micronesia was just down
here. Prime Minister
Well Mansfield was here from Japan.
Question., I heard that someone was here just last ( inaud)
Prime Minister
Well he could have been. I did not meet him.
Question The Americans are fairly set to give Micronesia some sort of'
self governing status. Is that something which interests Australia?
Prime Minister
Well all th-6 Pacific States are becoming independent and self
governing. That is a move that is sweeping through the Pacific.
But it is also going to be very important that those countries
keep together in their own bodies in their own groupings.
Question Do you see the. Soviets as willing to play up any weaknesses in...
Prime Minister
There have been some suggestions that they are prepared to provide
air force or ( inaud) bases in some of these islands and if they
are given half a chance I suspect they might like to and then
what does it later develop into.
Question There was that. thing in Tonga a couple of years ago.
Prime Minister
That's right, yes. Well that was the main feeler that went out
I think.
Question The New Hebrides is having a lot of problems which could be a
( inaud).
Prime. Minister
Some. Question I know you are pretty pressed for time but jumping to another
subject do you think, I mean it's part of my hassles with my
editors in New York and I sometimes feel sympathy when you are 8
saying in effect that no-one is paying us enough attention down
here. Prime Minister
I haven't said that. Our journalists said it.
Question In effect. But do you think Australia is taken seriously-enough?
Prime Minister
I think Australia is taken seriously in Washington and State [ epartrent
political circles and in the-White House. I think Australia is.
taken seriously for quite different reasons in the financial
circles in New York. I attended an economic club dinner and 1,000
people turned up. I don't think 1,000 people turned up just
because they liked Malcolm Fraser. I think they had
some interest in Australia and what Australia is doing and some
interest in the kinds of policies that we pursue. Because we have
got a reputation in New York for economic policies that work and
keeping a tight reign on government expenditure and all sorts of
things. And that is appreciated. So in those areas I think
Australia well ( inaud) if somebody has got a project to develop
here you will find plenty of people in New York that will be
prepared to provide the funds. That is the sort of reputation we
want. Now it doesn't worry us if we don't get many column inches
in New York newspapers or in the Washington Post. And I can well
understand what the 140 or 150 nations represented in Washingtonhow
people get involved in their own domestic affairs. You go across
to the United States and a. number of the newspapers there hardly
even write any national news. It's only in the East coast newspapers
and I suppose to an extent in the West coast papers, when
I've been in the country where you really find international events
reported at all. So I am used to it. But it doesn't worry me.
Question But are you disappointed that. Australia hasn't in world economic
forums it seems that I know that you liaise very closely with the
Americans and the Japanese for example and that they carry
Australia's arguments-to these forms -but why hasn't Australia
become an invited. partner of these..
Prime Minister
Japan wanted us to be and I think the Americans would have accepted
it and the British would have, may be Germany. But there are one
or two in the economic group that didn't want us. There are
economies than Canada's but bigger than ours. The present membership
is based on the size of their economies. Now if they make a
juncture with a country with Australia's size economy they are
going to be a number of others in between within the European area
that will give problems to the Europeans and say how do you put
Australia-on and leave us off our economy is bigger. And I can
understand that sort of argument. I can also understand arguments
that said the world's geography has got to be balanced and that was
the argument that the Japanese used. I don't know that that matters
very much. We can make our own way and seem to be doing it all
right. I don't know that our presence at those forums is going to
really strengthen the anti inflationary policies of the countries
9
Prime Minister ( continued)
that are not receiving an adequate anti inflationary policy.
But in other areas of course, in the political domain, I would
like to see more discussions amongst an even. nore restricted group and
that is Britain,. France, Germany and the United States. I think
much of the future of the independent nations of the world depends
upon a very even closer link and liaison between those major four
countries.-I suppose I am saying in practical terms that there
are things that I believe they can and ought to be saying to each
other which they probably wouldn't say in any larger grouping. But that is
on political and strategic matters rather than on economic matters.
Question But do you think that such talks' however informal would tend
to put off your own regional the other nations within the region?
Prime minister
What sort of things?
Question You know if you are talking about forming a group of independent
nations like mostly European and. American nations wouldn't
that put off the regional allies a bit why aren't you talking to
us as much as you're talking to them?
Prime minister
I think they talk to us and to others in different sorts of fortums.
Look so much depends upon a concerted European/ North American
policy in dealing with the S oviet Union. And it can be achieved
through those four nations.
Question I.
But how would you assess the relationship between Australia and
the region?
Prime Minister
This region?
Question Yes. Prime Minister
I would have thought-it's good. Sometimes our own economic writers
down here write things that I think are nonsense about our trade
relationships with Asean. But the Asean countries are well aware
that their exports to us have been increasing by 30 to 40 per cent
a year for ten years, even though they started from a low base
that rate of growth-that starts to build up we have introduced
many special policies to help them get into our markets because
they started later than many others. I am opening a second Asean
Australia trade fair later this year. And I think they understand
that we buy on a per capita basis much more their manufactured
goods than does any other advanced industrial country more than
Japan, America or Europe. And we will go on doing so. We have got
a
Prime Minister ( continued)
a close identity of interest in the security and stability of the
region. With Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia we have got defence
aid programmes we have got a five power defence arrangement that
still exists with Singapore, Malaysia and New Zealand, Australia
and Britain.
Question That's right. Everyone is still there except the Brits I guess?
Prime Minister
The Philippines have put aside a trade treaty for a long while
because they were not satisfied with trade arrangements.-But when
I was there last time it was brought up, dusted over and signed.
So I think the relationship with the region is a good one.
Question Would you agree that there have been strains and misunderstandings.
Prime minister
Oh going back over 25 30 year period at different times of
course there have been some. There have occasionallybeen strains
and misunderstandings in relation to our immigration policy
sometimes in relation to trade-policy. But we have tried to work
on it and I think those difficulties I hope have permanently passed
us. And relationships with Japan could not be better. So we have
concentrated our diplomatic efforts and initiatives in this area
the last 3 or 4 years may be started to branch out a little bit and
develop closer links with the Indian subcontinent. And in the
last 3 or 4 years we are giving much more attention to the Pacific.
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