TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH RADIO AUSTRALIA 1 JANUARY 1980
PRIME MINISTER AND RICHARD ANDREWS
PUBLIC AFFAIRS RADIO AUSTRALIA
THE INTERVENTION IS TOTALLY UNJUSTIFIED IT'S QUITE
PLAIN THAT THE FORMER LEADER WHO IS PRO-SOVIET WAS ACTING
IN A WAY THAT WAS DIFFICULT TO CONTROL. AND THE SOVIETS,
AND THEIR FRIENDS WANTED TO REPLACE HIM WITH ANOTHER
PRO-SOVIET LEADER IN AFGHANISTAN. AND TO MAKE SURE THAT
THAT STRATEGY WAS GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL, RUSSIAN TROOPS
WERE NEEDED. IT'S NO WONDER THAT THE COUP OF A COUPLE OF YEARS
AGO HAS CAUSED DISSENT, THAT THERE IS FIGHTING WITHIN THE
COUNTRY, BECAUSE AS WE'RE ADVISED THE REGIME THAT WAS
DEPOSED A DAY OR TWO AGO, WAS A PARTICULARLY BRUTAL ONE.
AND NOT ONE THAT WAS LIKELY TO WIN ANY LASTING SYMPATHY FOR
THE COMMUNIST CAUSE. IF COMMUNISM WAS TO PREVAIL, IF THE
RUSSIAN INFLUENCE WAS TO PREVAIL, IT WAS NECESSARY TO CHANGE
LEADERS. ANDREWS: WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE RAMIFICATIONS FOR REGIONAL
SECURITY OF THE SOVIET ACTION?
WELL IT'S OBVIOUSLY GOING TO LEAD TO A GREATER AREA
OF UNCERTAINTY. IT'S BORDERING AN AREA THAT'S ALREADY A
VERY SENSITIVE ONE, THERE'S NO NEED TO TALK ABOUT PAKISTAN'S
CONCERNS, BUT THEY WILL ONLY BE HEIGHTENED. AND ON THE OTHER
SIDE OF COURSE, THERE'S THE GRIEVOUS AND VERY DIFFICULT
PROBLEM OF IRAN. NOV WITH RUSSIA PLAYING AN IMPERIAL GAME,
AS SHE IS IN AFGHANISTAN, IT'S JUST GOING TO MAKE THE
TENSIONS WORSE AND ADD TO INSTABILITY IN THE REGION.
ANDREWS: IF YOU SAY THAT RUSSIA IS PLAYING AN IMPERIAL GAME,
DO YOU SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF FURTHER SOVIET EXPANSION IN
THE REGION? I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED THAT THE BASIC OBJECTIVE OF THE
EARLIER CZARS HAS ALTERED.... IMPERIAL RUSSIA ALWAYS WANTED TO
EXPAND, AND UNDER THE PRESENT LEADERSHIP WITH A DIFFERENT
PHILOSOPHY THAT BASIC SOVIET DESIGN SEEMS NOT TO HAVE ALTERED.
I'VE GOT NO DOUBT THAT RUSSIA WOULD SEEK TO EXTEND HER INFLUENCE
WHEREVER POSSIBLE, BY ONE MEANS OR ANOTHER. AND IF THAT MEANS
EXPLOITING UNSETTLED CONDITIONS, THEN THEY'LL CERTAINLY DO
THAT. I ASKED THE AMBASSADOR YESTERDAY WHAT HIS POSITION WAS
IN RHODESIA, IN ZIMBABWE. I SAID: " HERE SURELY YOU HAVE A
SITUATION WHERE ALL PARTIES ARE IN AGREEMENT THE PATRIOTIC
FRONT, FRONTLINE STATES, BRITAIN, BISHOP MUZORERA, EVERYONE
NOW ISN'T THAT SOMETHING THAT THE SOVIET UNION WOULD BE ABLE
TO SUPPORT, AND SUPPORT WHOLE -HEARTEDLY?" ALL THE
AMBASSADOR COULD DO WAS TO SAY THAT HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE
POSITION OF THE GOVERNMENT WAS ON THAT ISSUE, THAT PART OF
THE AGREEMENT.. THE FIGHTING WAS GOING TO CONTINUE, THERE
WOULD BE A GREATER SUPPLY OF RUSSIAN ARMS, GREATER INCURSION
OF CUBANS AND OF EAST GERMANS WHICH, YOU KNOW WOULD HOLD OUT
THE PROSPECT AND THE POSSIBILITY, I SUPPOSE, IN THE SOVIET MINDS
OF THEIR INFLUENCE IN THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA.
ANDREWS: WHAT WAS THE SOVIET AMBASSADOR'S REACTION TO YOUR
. CRITICISMS OF HIS COUNTRY'S ACTIONS IN AFGHANISTAN?
I THINK IT WAS ACCEPTED, I THINK IT WAS YOU KNOW.
THE EXPLANATION THEIR MILITARY INVOLVEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN
WAS SO WEAK, THAT HE MUST HAVE EXPECTED A REACTION. AND
YOU KNOW I'VE SAID ON MA'Y OCCASIONS THAT I REALLY DO BELIEVE
THAT MIDDLE RANKING POiWERS, SUCH AS AUSTRALIA, HAVE AN
OBLIGATION TO SPEA; THEIR ilI D ON MATTERS OF THIS KIND.
BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T, iMATTERS JUST GO BY DEFAULT. WE ARE
Al INDEPENDENT ., ATIu'lm AND THAT MiEANS THAT THERE'S A VIEW
THAT'S HELD STRONGLY AND WE ,' AiT TO EXPRESS IT.
ANDREWS: IS THE LATEST SOVIET ACTIOIN IN AFGHANISTAN GOING
T HAE ANY EFFECT ON4 AUSTRALIA'S FOREIGN POLICY, TWAD
MOSCOW? I DON'T THINK IT ALTERS THAT AT ALL. IN PART OF THE
CONVERSATION, I SAID THAT MY WISH WAS TO PROMOTE BETTER
RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE SOVIET UNION AND AUSTRALIA. OVER
THE LAST YEAR OR TWO, VARIOUS EVENTS HAD OCCURRED WHICH
INTERRUPTED THAT RELATIONSHIP ( YOU'LL REMEMBER THE BUGGING
DEVICES, DISCOVERED IN OUR EMBASSY IN MOSCOW) AND THAT
VARIOUS MATTERS IN NEGOTIATION WITH THE SOVIET UNION WERE
THEN, YOU KNOW, PUT ON ICE. BUT I'VE POINTED OUT ON MANY
OCCASIONS THAT THE WAY TO IMPROVE THE RELATIONSHIP IS TO DO
IT BY MEANS OF TRADE OR CULTURAL ACTIVITIES AND NOT TO
CONCENTRATE ON THE STRATEGIC AND POLITICAL MATTERS WHERE I'M
QUITE CERTAIN THAT WE'VE GOT DIFFERENCES WHICH ARE VERY DEEP.
BUT THERE ARE OTHER ASPECTS OF RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN COUNTRIES
AND THERE IS MUCH IN THE TRADE RELATIONSHIP THAT COULD BE
IMPROVED AND OTHER ASPECTS OF THE RELATIONSHIP THAT COULD BE
IMPROVED. WE HAD MADE OUR OFFICIALS AVAILABLE TO TRY AND
WORK OUT HARD-HEADED ARRANGEMENTS THAT WOULD ENABLE THAT TO
TAKE PLACE. UNFORTUNATELY, THEY HAVEN'T MADE A GREAT DEAL
OF PROGRESS. DOES THE FACT THAT AUSTRALIA'S JOINED CHINA IN
CONDEMNING THE SOVIET ACTION SIGNIFY SOME KIND OF ANTI-MOSCOW
AL IGNMENT? NO,@ I DON'T THINK SO, WE JUDGE EVENTS AS WE SEE THEM
AND THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I POINTED OUT TO THE
SOVIET AMBASSADOR. IN MANY TERMS WE'RE AN ALIGNED POWER,
BUT THAT DOESN'T STOP US TAIMNkG A TOTALLY INDEPENDENT VIEW,
A VIEW THAT MvIGHT BE IN ADVANCE OR DIFFERENT TO THE UNITED
STATES OR BRITAIN. THERE wAS A Th. IN DURIING OUR WINTER MONTHS,
WHEN AUSTRALIA COULD HAVE BEEN TAKING QUITE A DIFFERENT VIEW
FROM BRITAIN IN RELATION TO RHODESIA. IN THE END WE WERE ALL
TAKING THE SAME VIEW BUT I THIN11K THAT WAS IN LARGE MEASURE DUE TO
AUSTRALIA'S ADVOCACY BEING PREPARED TO STATE A POSITION WHICH
AUSTRALIA BELIEVED TO BE RIGHT, WHICH I BELIEVED TO BE RIGHT.
AND THEN OTHERS WERE PERSUADED TO THAT COURSE. BUT YOU KNOW
IF THEY HADN'T BEEN PERSUADED TO THAT COURSE) IT OBVIOUSLY RAN
THE RISK OF AUSTRALIA BEING AT ODDS WITH, IN A SENSE OUR
CLOSEST FRIENDS. LOOKING GENERALLY AT THE REGION, HOW DO YOU SEE THE
SOVIET ACTION IN TERMS OF THE INDIAN OCEAN ZONE OF PEACE?
I SEE EVENTS THERE AND EVENTS IN IRAN MAKING
A ZONE OF PEACE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE. I ALSO
SEE THEIR ACTIVITIES IN VIETNAM AS MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT
FOR THAT TO BE ACHIEVED. WHILE THE SOVIET UNION HAS NOT YET.
ESTABLISHED MAJOR USE OF BASES, MILITARY BASES IN VIETNAM,
THERE IS AN OCCASIONAL USE WHICH IS INCREASING. AND I WOULD
EXPECT THEM TO TAKE MATTERS, STEP BY STEP, THAT OBVIOUSLY
ENHANCES THEIR STRATEGIC POSITION. AND QUITE PLAINLY VIETNAM
WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO UNDERTAKE THE INVASION OF
KAMPUCHEA WITHOUT RUSSIAN MORAL AND M ILITARY SUPPORT MATERIAL
SUPPORT. AND THERE IS A SOVIET VIETNAMESE TREATY WITH DEFENCE
CLAUSES, AS WE KNOW, SO ALL OF THESE THINGS HAVE, OVER THE
LAST YEAR OR TWO, TENDED TO BE DISTURBING IN A PART OF THE
WORLD THAT AFFECTS US, THAT WE'RE VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN.
BUT ON THE BRIGHTER SIDE,-THE SOLIDARITY AND STRENGTH OF ASEAN
IS VERY MUCH TO BE COMMENDED AND THAT' S AN ARRANGEMENT
BETWEEN NATIONS WHICH IS REALLY CO~ iTRIBUTING VERY GREATLY TO
STABILITY AND PEACE IN THE AREA. AND A CARDINAL PLANK OF THEIR
POLICY OF COURSE IS THAT THERE SHuULDN'T BE INTERFERENCE BY
ANY OF THE GREAT POvIERS, Ai~ jD THAT'S SOINETHING THAT AUSTRALIA
WHOLEHEARTEDLY SUPPORTS.
R. A. O. K. SE,' LL THAviKS VERY i-MUCH FOR YOjUR TIME. I PROMISED
OWEN LLOYD THAT I WOJULDN'T KEEP YOU FOR MORE THAN A FEW
MINUTES SEEIN~ G THAT IT 4AS A PUBLIC HOLIDAY.
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