PRESS OFFICE TRANSCRIPT 119 JUNE 1979
PRESS INTERVIEW:, PRIME MINISTER
AND PETER NOLAN, A. C. T. U. Secretary, INTERVIEWED BY
RICHARD CARLETON, NATIONWIDE.
RICHARD CARLETON
We'll come to the last-minute discussions in a second, Sir,
but to use your words, this futile dispute, and from that, I
think one could possibly draw this futile stoppage on Thursday.
on Friday morning in what way is Australia going to be a better
place as a result of that futile exercise?
PETER NOLAN
Well let's put it in these terms, that we didn't ask for this
diszu-te, we didn't design it but we've got a situation on our
han: ds, where you can't get any sense out of the Western
Auszralian Governm~ ent. Notwithstanding that we've been persisting
over the last week or so, to try and get to a situation of
stec , o; rig back. Even to the extent where Bob Hawke is in contact
with the Premier and his reaction to it was that he couldn't do
anthing about it, that he'd refer it back to the Cabinet in
Western Australia and they considered their position, or
re-considered their position and the only thing we got out of that
was the direction from the Prime Minister to say that the facts
should be known. Now, we've got some reservations about the facts,
but that's the sort of reaction we've been getting for the last
week, that's the sort of reaction the West Australian Trades and
Labor Council's been getting for some time in that State.
RICHARD CARLETON
Mr Nolan we're all Australians in this together. How, on Friday
morining, to repeat the point, how on Friday morning are we going
to be a better place as a result of this futile exercise?
PETER NOLAN
Well, i-f we come to that situation, or if we have to go through with it.
We've made the treat now, I suppose, we'll carry it through. Will
Australia be a better place? I would hope that if that sort of
action doesn't assist the Western Australian Government's thinking,
on z: ulling back from the position that they've placed Australia
in and. I Put this blame squarely with the Western Australian
Government, then I suppose we'll see continuing action until we
break this sort of stupidity that the Western Australian
Gz-7ernm-ent_ is going on with, because what we're up against is a
finda. ental problem, is if we allow a situation to exist in the
State of Western Australia, or for that matter, any other State
of Australia, then the Australian Trade Union Movement won't be
worth a butt.
RICHARD CARLETON
Mr Nolan I detected just a twinge of doubt in your words there,
used if I think a couple of times, is there a possibility that
Thursday will be called off? / 2
-2
PETER NOLAN
Well I'm hopeful, I've only just heard that there's going to be
last-minute discussions in Western Australia. I don't know how
far they get up the track there but certainly, I'll be having
discussions with fellow-officers in Canberra tomorrow.
RICHARD CARLETON
You are coming to Canberra tomorrow, are you?
PETER NOLAN
Yes, I've only just made those arrangements in the last few
RICHI: ARD CARLETON
This is at Mr Fraser's invitation?
PETE? NOLAN
Yes, and we'll be carrying on discussions with the Cabinet,
hopefully to try arnd avoid this sort of situation that's going
to exist in Australia, from Thursday on, because Thursday is not
a once situation because it could develop into all sorts of other
actions being taken by the Trade Union Movement.
RICHARD CARLETON
Now what do you expect Canberra and Mr Fraser to do, to placate
you?
PETER NOLAN
Well, we've had those sorts of discussions with, or I have had
discussions with the Prime Minister and also the Acting Minister
for Industrial Relations and I'm told at that stage they couldn't
intervene and I accept that situation. But I believe that they
co-ald be more positive in talking with -their colleagues in
Western Australia to try and bring about a resolution of this
particular problem.
R 7 1HARD CARLETON
Wha7-, do you want Mr Fraser to give Sir Charles Court a beat
about the ears, so to speak?
Well, I'm not putting it in that sort of childish terms. But I
thi. nk they could be more direct, more positive in their approach
than what they have been up to date.
RICHARD CARLETON
Like what? / 3
-3-
PETER NOLAN
Just trying to talk some sense into the West Australian
Government and the Cabinet. Because what we're saying is
we're not asking themn to drop the charges, I think we've gone
past that at the present moment but if we can get a clear
undertaking. As I've said on several occasions over the last
two or three days, if we get a clear undertaking from the
Western Australian Government that on the first day of sitting
on the next Session of the Western Australian Parliament, that
they intend to amend the Police Act, to remove those obnoxious
words, as we see -them, then I believe that we can get to a
settlement of this sort of a situation that we're facing up to
on Thursday.
R-ICHiARD CARLETON
Mr -Nolan, in his Office in Parliament House an hour or two ago,
Mr ?' Iraser said that he did not believe that the A. C. T. U. really
thcu~ ht that its right, or unionists right to assembly was under
threat by virtue of this West Australian Legislation. Is that
the way it is?
PE= R NOLAN
That:' s not entirely true because what has happened in Western
Australia and I don't think I've got time to go through
eve ry detail. What did happen was that a meeting was held and
even the Police in Western Australia who are carrying out the law
and I've got no complaints with the Police, but how that Act and
how those provi S4ons have been carried out Western Australia since
it came in 2 years ago, when the Trade Union Movements saw,
foresaw the problems it could create so far as the Trade Union
Movements concerned was rubbished at that time by the Court
Government in saying that this would never happen. We find that
the Police have been administering the law over there on the
basis that if the Trade Union Movement wanted to have a March
and that's what they were concerned about, Marches. They weren't
concerned about meetings and that being * the spirit of the
Legislation, hcw it was being carried out in Western Australia,
we f'ind then that a meeting being held in a country town in
Western Australia, where Laurrie Carmichael is invited at the
last, minute. We find then, you know this is the whole basis of
the thing is that-we find then that the action being taken
aaffst aTrade Unionist, not two, as has been reported by the
medi-a but in fact ] 3 Trade Union officials of varying political
persuasions. CARLETON
Mr Nolan, I thank yo u very much indeed for your comments. I
invite you, if you wouldn't mind to just remain in the Melbourne
Studios for a few moments and if I could now introduce from
Canberra now, the Prime Minister and suggest to you Mr Fraser,
in explaining that you've been fishing on a holiday and thank
you very much for coming in, suggest to you that Mr Nolan put
forward a very reasonable sort of case there, would you
like to respond to what he said? / 4
4-
PRIME MINISTER
I think Mr Nolan, in many conversations I've had with him and I
hope this doesn't condemn him, is a very reasonable person who
likes to deal with a matter on its merits. But on the advice that
I've had I think this whole matter now has got far beyond the
particular dispute which first caused it. I'M not seeking to
defend a particular law but I think -that as I've been advised
some explanation, or a particular explanation ought to be given.
Well over 500 applications have been made under the law and as
I'm advised all granted, many of them to the Trade Union
Movement and the Labor Party. I think overwhelmingly, anyway
because the Trade Union Movement and to the Labor Party granted.
On this case, as I'm told, officials said you know, can we have
a ma.-rch, or have a meeting and was told that they should apply in
wri1ting and as I'm advised that application in writing wasn't
and that's the only thing that you know,-if that had occurred
th; anr this whole wretched business would not have arisen.
RD TiCA RD CARETON
Such a petty thing though, such a petty thing bringing the nation
to a stop.
PP22, MINISTER
Well, exactly but you know, why wasn't that application made in
w-riting? Now if that's a correct interpretation of the facts,
it seems-apparently under the law that it has to be made in
writing but not imuch in advance, it can be done much at the last
minute aand it Seems to me that one needs to ask why didn't
somebody write out on a bit of paper, we want--
RICHARD CARLETON
But that's all behind now Sir what Thursday?
PRIME MINISTER
That was still a petty thing, not making that application in
writing and whether that was decided or not, I don't know but
I do need to say that the decision taken by the Australian
Council of Trad e unions in support of industrial action, which
could on a continuing basis lead to bans on the export of major
C= EC Itie" s,, thweh ich could, at request of the Unionists in
Western Australia, lead to concerted bans on the State of
Wa-stern Australia.
RT~ ARDCARLET ON
No one doubts -the seriousness of it, one's looking for a solution.
PRIME MINISTER
Well, exactly but I think it needs saying that those actions are
far out of proportion to the nature of the dispute itself and that
needs to be kept in mind because I really don't believe that
anyone thinks that the right of assembly, the right to meet and
the right to march is under threat in Australia.
RICHARD CARLETON
Mr Nolan seems to be saying though Sir, that if you can produce
for him a promise from Sir Charles Court that on the first day of
the Sitting of the Western Australian Parliament this provision
will be removed that then there's no need for the disaster on
Thursday. PRIME MINISTER
That's a commitment that one would have to get out of the Western
Australian Government. Sir Charles Court has said that the
provision will be reviewed and it seems to me that that statement
has passed through the air and has not been given due weight.
I've also indicated of course, that I would believe that there
is going to be a dabate in the Western Australian Parliament
abcat it because if the Government doesn't initiate one the
Cpzos~~ oncertainly will.
RICEA-? D. CARLETON
Put vourself in the position of a Union Leader who is going out
to his Members and saying well, Sir Charles Court has said that
he'll review this matter so therefore we shouldn't go on strike
on Thursday. From-i Mr Nolan's point of view and from the
membership of the point of view, they want Sir Charles
Court to say that it's going to be withdrawn. Now if you can
produce that, you save the nation.
PRTME MINISTER
Now, wait a minute. That may well be so, but there are some
otlh-er aspects of this. Threats have been made of a very real
kind and its not always the best way to get a result out of a
Government. It's not always a responsible use of power to
indicate that you intend to use the undoubted power that Trade
Unions have and I believe that one of the results of the
general public and the tens upon tens of thousands of trade
urnionists that a weapon has been used against Australia and
against the pecple of Western Australia in particular, which is
out of all proportion to the nature of the dispute and I think,
ncw but wait a minute, wait a minute.
-2 -n RD CARLETO
Let me correct your grammar there Sir, is to be used, hasn't
been used yet it's-going to be used unless you step in.
T S 7~'
No, not unless I step in. It's a question of. No, this is one
of the things we're talking about tonight. So many people
believe that the Commonwealth has power to resolve industrial
disputes when very often that power resides in the hands of a
State Government and not in the Commonwealth and you need to
understand that this is the position at the moment and I believe
that the Trade Union Movement has done itself irrepairable harm
by seeking to involve the whole of Australian major export
industries and maybe the possibility of a very real ban on trade
and commerce with Western Australia as a result of this particular / 6
6
dispute and I don't for one moment wish the union movement that
harm but on my judgement the people of Australia will believe
that a weapon of massive proportion is being used and the
original dispute does not in any sense merit that.
RICHARD CARLETON
It can be stopped though Sir, if you would produce from Sir
Charles Court a promise to withdraw this legislation as Mr Nolan
just said.
PRIME MINISTER
You also know quite well, that Sir Charles Court is not in
Australia and Sir Charles has said that this matter resides in the
hand's of his own Cabinet in Perth. Now, I think that it would
have been very much better if people could have stood back a little,
it'= worth noting that there was going to be a massive dispute
on ursday anyway. The AMSWu and other major unions, MetalWorkers
Uni: n was having a major dispute on a wage case and they decided
to do that anyway. To defy Arbitration and to say look we want to
supcrt it by industrial muscle when they ought to be going to
the Arbitration Commission and putting their case there and that
the . erits determine the issue and not industrial strength. So
there was going to be a major dispute on Thursday involving many
people right around Australia in any case.
RT-ARD CARLETON
The opportunity is there to kill two birds with one stone?
PRIME MINISTER
Oh look, do you think that the Metal Workers won't continue with
their dispute?
RICHARD CARLETON
It would look pretty silly if they went out this Thursday after
getting a promise to withdraw the law.
PRIME MINISTER
Well, I think you've got to understand that the processes of
r. ev i hn ave to be undertaken and Western Australia has indicated
qu; t-e plainly that it is going to. Peter Durack, our Attorney-
General will be talking with Mr Metcalfe, Western Australia
co Dt as soon as Mr Metcalfe comes back from overseas. He
w have had these discussions earlier. Well, sometime during
the course of tomorrow, I'm not sure what time his plane gets in.
Those discussions will have taken place earlier if Mr Metcalfe
had been in Western Australia but he wasn't and so the Commonwealth
Government I have had discussions with Mr. O'Neil and Ian Viner has had
many discussions with Mr. O'Neil on this particular issue. / 7
-7
PRIME MINISTER ( continued)
But again, I come back -to the point, the weapon that is being
used is out of all proportion to -the nature of the dispute,
to the nature of the complaint. Against the background of
the Metalworkers and one or two other unions wewere going to
have a national stoppage anyway on Thursday. It makes one
wonder whether or not there aren't some people almost take a
delight in this. I know quite well that Mr. Nolan is not he
said he doesn't want a dispute and I accept that totally and
absolutely. C APT. F TO0N
I will come back to Mr. Nolan in a few moments sir, but just
may end off our segment by asking you; what is your
Government doing to stop the petrol disaster that is about
to i-nCHict itself, or now inflicting itself on N. S. W.
PR-MIN ISTE R
Well, a number of things are happening. There will be a meeting
between the Chafil-ian of the N. S. W. Industrial Commission and
Sir-! John Moore, the Chairman of the Arbitration Commission,
tororrow.
CARLETON Mr. Wran though?
PRIME MINISTER
Oh Wi th our consultation and all the rest. This matter is
under Federal jurisdiction. It's basically under the State
jurisdiction, I said Federal. But the dispute has arisen
because as I am advised both the N. S. W. State Government and
the State AWU want certain elements of the Kurnell oil Refinery
worker's case to be under the N. S. W. jurisdiction.
CA. PLETON
What are you doing to solve it? What are doing to get the
petrol flowing?. You are the leader of the country.
I th. ink you need to let people understand what the basis of the
tat is because a particular union, the State AWU,
w-e e er the State jurisdiction and are defying the
determinations that have been made so far that the whole oil
industry ought to be under the Federal jurisdiction. Now the
Commoonwealth very strongly supports that because we believe
that having a State jurisdiction and a Federal jurisdiction
cutting across industries makes no sense whatsoever. I had
earlier written to Premiers on matters that were related to this
but today the Commonwealth decided that we should put to the States,
to the trade union movement and to employers, whether or not
there should not be a referral of powers to the Commonwealth so
that in the future there could be one industrial jurisdiction. / 8
8
PRIME MINISTER ( continued)
It could be done for a trial period of three years if
people like, because there have been many disputes caused
by jealousies between a jurisdictions, people leap-frogging,
people in the State jurisdiction getting a higher award,
people in the Federal jurisdiction therefore being aggrieved.
CARLETON That does nothing to get petrol flowing in N. S. W. tomorrow though?
PR1._ E MINISTER
This-doesn't do anything to help get petrol flowing in N. S. W.
tomC:-row. This situation may well never have arisen if
Mr. Wran had not given moral support to the State AWU to break
ou-cf the Federal jurisdiction. He knows that very well indeed.
No-w, hat doesn't help for tomorrow. But if there is going to
be ptrol flowing in N. S. W. it is the State Government that has
emer-ency powers in these circumstances. It is the State
Government that is using those emergency powers to ration petrol,
who could be using those emergency powers although I believe
that should wait until the hearing which is tomorrow afternoon
at 2: 00 o'clock who could be using and maybe should later on
be using those emergency powers to get people back to work.
There are 400 people in a State union that are holding the
whole of the State of N. S. W. to ransom. I haven't heard Mr. Wran,
at any point, say, throw the weight and moral authority of his
Government against those 400 people holding up the whole State
of N. S. W.
CARLETON Apart from the long-term referral question, whi:-h is a big and
complex issue, for the immediate problem in N. S. W. though is it
the case that your are impotent?
P_ RIU MINISTER
The power is within the N. S. W. jurisdiction, yes it is. It is
within Mr. Wran's emergency powers. He understands this and
he knows it. Again, I believe the tragedy is that over a
-icant period the N. S. W. Government has given its moral
support to a breakaway section to try and break out of the
Federal jurisdiction which would lead, even within N. S. W. itself,
s-. e o the i-ndustry under the Federal award and some of the
i-_ 3-try under a State . award. That in itself would have the
seeds of discontent and disruption for one moment the
Federal people would be ahead, the State would fight to catch
up and they would jump ahead and there would be continual
disturbance in a very important industry. Now, we've even tried
to assess, to see, to what extent it might be possible to help
N. S. W. from other parts of the Commonwealth, but petrol supplies
are tight right around Australia and that means if any State
was to help to get extra petrol into N. S. W. it would probably
have to use its own emergency powers, impose rationing in its
own State, to divert supplies to N. S. W. / 9
9
CARLETON Mr. Fraser, I thank you on that point, and I am going to go
back to Melbourne, but could I just ask; are you going back
fishing tomorrow or not?
PRIME MINISTER
I think that might well be doubtful. There will be discussions
tomorrow morning with Peter Nolan and such other of his
colleagues as he wants to bring to Canberra with him. Ian Viner
and one or two others of us will be involved in that.
There will be another meeting of Federal Cabinet tomorrow
afternoon, certainly those Ministers that are available or
presant today, to assess the situation again tomorrow afternoon.
Ta:-_ e at the moment is on that houseboat in Eildon, and whether
I get back there or not at the moment I think is very much
ocen to doubt. 000---
( MR. NOLAN INTERVIEWED FOLLOWING INTERVIEW WITH MR. FRASER)
A.