PRESS OFFICE TRANSCRIPT
INTERVIEW WITH DAVID JENSEN AND BRUCE JONES 27
Question: Prime Minister, southern African seem likely to dominate
CHOGM. You're on record as saying you're advising caution
against of Zimbabwe, and you have: been in contact with Mrs Thatcher
and Joe Clark on this. What progress have you made, or what has
been your response?
Prime Minister:
T he discussions with the United Kingdom really began on this
before the election when Lord Carrington was out here, and we had
extensive discussions at that time. Since then, I believed I think
thn7t a Conservative government would want to move cautiously, and
not want to take any precipative action. They've stated as
an objective the bringing of Zimbabwe back to legality but clearly,
that needs to be done if it is at all possible, in a way that's
peaceful and in a way that's accepted by all the parties concerned.
The British government is therefore set in train a very extensive
series of consultations with all parties in Africa. The frontline
states are involved, the Patriotic Front have got an interest, and
if people can be brought to a negotiated settlement, then that's
obviously a great advance. The Foreign Minister has said that the
eections in Zimbabwe is a significant step forward, but not one
which of itself would justify recognition. He has talked of the
prospect of the Muzorewa government itself initiativing discussions
with the Patriotic Front in a way which might lead to the
resolution of the issues. It's not possible to look at this
particular issue in isolation. It is important to look at it
in the context of what's happened in Africa against the wider
context of the Co7monwealth nad indeed the western influence
in the African continent. The wrong decisions could obvioulsy
make it the most devisive issue in the Commonwealth.
I happen to believe the Commonwealth is : an instrument of great
value. I've been surprised, and very pleasantly surprised on
earlier occasions at the very real sense of moderation and
reason with which people put views which they plainly hold very
strongly. It's. the kind of moderation and reasoned discussion
a_-.." ngst a large number of heads of government, about 40, which
, so Tten1 seems to be totally lacking in the United Nations
With all the differences or most of the differences you find in
t-e United Nations, you find in the Commonwealth. It's an
-e en ,7-nch enables discussions to take place, progress to
be. made. You know, it mightn't be stretching it too far to say
that if it weren't for the Commonwealth agreement on the common
fund reached at UNCTAD would not have been reached. It is certainly
very useful in bringing people of differing views to a
reconciliation of those views so there is a very real role
and it would be important that nothing be done that would
prejudice that in the future.
And in addition to that you've got the question of western
influence in Africa if wrong or ill-considered decisions
were taken, it could well dissipate western influence, and leave / 2
5 JUNE 1979
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the way open for increased Russian influence, for increased
activity by Cuban surrogates.
Now, that's certainly not in our interests, that's not in the
interests of the Commonwealth, and I'm very certain it's not
soemthing the great majority of African states would want to
see happen. Their objective is an independent Africa, clearly,
free from domination, but at the same time, there are issues
in Africa of enormous sensitivity and I think many Australians
find it difficult to understand that sensitivity. You know,
they say, " What's so special about Africa? What about human
rights in Russia?". But there is one thing that puts Africa
aisde: Problems in what was Rhodesia stem out of the policy
of slavery and all the difficulties that flowed from that.
It is only about 120 years since the United States fought one
of the most horrible, devisive and destructive civil wars in
the history of amn on that very issue. The policies I suppose
theoretically within the living memory of the grandfathers of
people presently alive in Africa.
T have stated on many occasions that apartheid is a repulsive
re-~ ime. it is not widely known and understood that Sir Robert
Mienzies was the frist Australian prime minister to express that
view with great vehemence, which he did. He condemned the policy
rc-.. dly as one which would not, and could not, work. The idea
tpeople are superior because of the colour of their skin,
cr inferior because of the colour of their skin, must be one
of the most repulsive policies known to man. Unless we can have
some understanding of that, we'll never understand the African
issues or the strength with which people hold their views, and
if we don't understand that, we'll make wrong decisions and
not be able to understand the motivation of people adequately,
or properly.
Question: You indicated that the Commonwealth could have more influence in
Africa than the United Nations.
Prime Minister:
Weil, I think that in some areas, the Commonwealth can have more
influence. The problems in Zimbabwe flow through from the unilateral
declaration of independence against the United Kingdom, and the
Ccr-= onwealth has a very real role. The meeting in Lusaka is bound
to discuss at great lengths the problems of Zimbabwe and I would
imagine the problems of southern Africa.
Question: Has your government been in contact with the Patriotic Front
Nkomo or Mugabwe?
Prime Minister:
Not in direct terms. An officer in the Department of Foreign Affairs
and my own Department, Alan Griffiths, have had very extensive
discussions with a wide number of people in Britain Alan Griffiths
is not back yet but I'll be getting a wide report from him on a wide
range of official and unofficial discussions which he has been
involved in and as he is returning through the United States and
Canada,/ 3
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Canada, we'll have a fairly good conspectus of views and how
these particular matters are moving.
Question:
What is the intiative that you appear to be trying, to play in
A fri ca?
Prime Minister:
Well, I don't think we're really trying to play any. Our objective
is obviously to make sure that the Commonwealth itself is not
damaged as a result of issues that will be raised at Lusaka,
and also of course to assist in getting to a situation in which
there can be a reconciliation of different views, a consensus,
and even agreeement. Now, the suggestion that the Zimbabwe issue
has got to be resolved by fighting, I think is a very sad suggestion
at it is also defeatist, because nobody will be winners in that.
TIherzfore, while there are different parties whose views which
at:-the moment are sharply opposed, the objective of our diplomacy,
7T~ ' m quite certain is the objective of British diplomacy, ought
to beto try to achieve some reconciliation. 1-ow that can be
done, or achieved, is too early to tell.
Question: Do you think that fighting is inevitable, if recognition of the
Zimbabwe regime is inevitable?
Prime Minister:
I. think that if there were immediate recognition of the reg., ime in
Zi-mbabwe that it would be very difficult for the Commonwealth
and very, very, difficult for that particular regime. I believe
there would be increasing Russian influence and Russian involvement,
arming guerillas, use of Cuban troops and a destruction of
British and United States influence in Africa. All of that would
be very much against the interests of Africa itself certainly
against Commonwealth interests.
Question: Does President Carter share this view? Have you had any contact
with him?
PieMinister:
Not directly. When Ambassador Young was here we had extensive
discussions. After that, there were extensive discussions between
T ' z and Care -: ng,-ton, and I th,-ink there is general consensus
tiz hesematters do need to be approached with a very real
cegeeof caution. An advance has been made but in our view
not one that owuld merit recognition of the regime and it depends
on what happens from here on as to whether that advance has
consolidated and broadened in a way that can become acceptable to
all parties. That's the objective we must work for. Hopefully
out of the discussions that will be taking place with a wide
number of people, the Secretary General of the Commonwealth is
very much involved and many others. I had some discussions in
Manila on this subject with one or two memebers of the Commonwealth.
Hopefully out of all of that will emerge reasonable and rational / 4
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solutions. I'm not making any predictions about that because I
think it is very difficult and I know views are held with
great strecgh, and as I believe, with great sincerity. We
need to understand that and we certainly must not underestimate
the difficulties.
Question: You are going to Nigeria before Lusaka. Will you be talking
to Nigeria about the possibility of importing oil?
Prime Minister:
The details of the discussion and the matters which we will be
looking at have not yet been raised but it is certainly a
possiblity we will not be overlooking. I don't know to what
e-x-tent their supplies are dedicated in other directions but
we are obviously looking for diversification of our sources
: f oil as well a trying to increase our own levels of exploration
Ques tioni:
id~ the sugg, 5estion on the oil from Nigeria, come from Nigeria
or was it an.. A ustralian initative?
Prime Minister:
In terms of the visit, that was a Nigerian initative flowing
out of a meeting itA Jamaica, but there's no particular agenda
for discussions at the moment. There'll probably be a wide
range ef issues, obviously, that we'll be discussing at the
Corpmonwealth Heads of Government Meeting north-south issues,
some bilateral issues into which the purchase of oil would be one
Question:
You are aware that Vorster has resigned as President. Do you
think this will have any effect on the whole southern African
issue particulary Namibia?
Prime Minister:
I would have suspected that South Africa' s policies are fairly
well set I mean, I don't really see those policies as being
altered significantly by change of personalities at this point,
policies that are really embraced by at least the ruling
1, -erarchy.
Question: '_ rime inseinflation. You stated at a press conference
er two weeks ago that you couldn't see an improvement
in the next 12 months, and that it would be around 10 or 1%
Prime Minister:
Ididn't say that. I said that it would be a significant success
if we could hold it at around current levels.
Question: Yes, I think people took it at 10 or 11 because they were
quoting it's at the moment. When can you see some
5
improvement in that, or aren't you looking for an improvement
in the next
Prime Minister:
Obviously we'll look for an improvement and we'll be looking
at the final budget result that bears down significantly on
inflation. The next wage case is going to be significant, obviousl"
The last wage in economic terms was, to put it as gently as I
can, not a helpful one, and it's time there was greater
assistance in the general economic recovery from the wages
front. It is not possible to predict what is going to happen
about beef prices, oil prices and OPEC countries, and these
things of course have a significant effect on our economy.
Wages are a domestic event. We had a number of particular
cicrumstances through the course of the course of the last
8 monthswhich ahve affected inflation, a number of them good for
sections of the Australian community but bad for inflation.
.7: e wheat crop which was double the year before was good for
tne farmers but bad for inflation. Beef prices I've mentioned,
o'l prices and wages higher mineral prices good for the
industries concerned, good for the balance of payments
' hich has strengthened markedly in recent months, but again,
not so good for inflation. So we have to counteract all that
w½ hich was one of the reasons for the mini budget and I
think it will depend on how much these particular forces
continue their thrust upwards, whether they peter out.
The prospects of Australian inflation remaining below that
of a number of our senior major trading partners is very
real, because in North America and in many countries of
Europe, inflation is 10% or higher. So long as we keep our
inflation below North America, below Britain, below. France,
below Italy, below a number of other countries, then our
industries will be getting more competative and not less.
In the past one of the great damgaes was done because our
inflation was much worse than in many others so our industries
lost markets here and overseas. We are certainly not
complacent about it, but at the same time, we've got to
fact the reality of the situation and obviously our principle
objective will be to keep Australia's rate below that of other
major trading countries.
Question: To what extent does foreign investment play in inflation?
Wel, if there's too much inflation, there will be much less
S-investment. They'll just get disturbed and they will
zo-idence. If we can keep inflation below that of
countries such as the United States, I think then that will
continue to attract a marked degree of foreign investment.
Private capital inflow in recent weeks has run quite well
and let me take the example of one industry aluminium.
There is very nearly $ 2 000 million been firmly announced
in that industry alone. That's an enormous industrial
development, and it's one of the things that indicates if
Australia plays her cards right, we will get a reasonable
degree of economic activity. That's very largely because
we've got significant mineral resour / 6
6
we've got significant mineral resources and that does attract
i nve s tmen t.
Question: The oil company representatives on the radio this morning
were suggesting that your moratorium., on the Great Barrier
Reef would deter companies from cc:. ing into Australia.
Prime Minister:
I think that's nonsense. There were companies there that
had leases available and I don't know any country that would
have wanted to get caught up in the environmental problems
with drilling on the Reef, and I don't think they would have
been the slightest bit interested. They wouldn't want to
get caught in the row, and certainly none of countries
with exploration areas were showing any keenness. There was no
raessure from them to say," Let us go and drill". Anyway, there
7-s been the moratorium up to now and oil search is gathering
pace again as we'd want it to, as a result of other oilpricing
policies to encourage exploration.
Question:
When did you plan to make the moratorium announcement. It
seemed that the Opposition was making the most of the past
few weeks, attacking Mr Newman
Prime Minister:
ft was a question of getting a submission forward from
Mr Newman and Senator Webster on how to handle the royal
commission findings.
Question: You don't feel that Mr Newman or the government has been
embarassed in any way
Prime Minister:
We would have been better off without the debate, but I don't
think there is any embarassment really on what occurred.
The issues, are quite plain. I'm not surprised that the
Opposition trying to make something of it but as I only heard
z-yeserdhay, I think this government's record in environmental
matters stands so high that it really wasn't carrying much
weight; Qu-as tion:
The Santos ruling in South Australia could that effect
inve s tment?
Prime Minister:
It won't be helpful, but there are other things which are
deterring investment in South Australia and the South
Australian government is 7ell aware of that. They are going
to have to set about developing policies which will attract / 7
-7
investment or else there is going to be a slow and gradual
decline in South Australia, quite inevitably
Question: Does that apply to other States also?
Prime Minister:
It applies to the policies in South Australia. It's the only
State I know at the moment which has developed that sort of
reputation. Question:
Have you decided yet on a replacement for Sir Arthur Tange?
Pr-. ime Minister:
Qe s t ion:
is it likely that he will be asked to stay on, or has he been.
as'ked to stay on?
Prime Minister:
I'd want to speculate about what's going to happen, and no
decision has been made..'
Question: It has been suggested that' in the Pacific, Australia is not
giving the type of aid which the South Pacific nations want,
particualary the Solomon Islands. Their Foreign Minister was
through here about 2 or 3 months ago.
Prime Minister:
Well, if that's so, I'd be surprised because the Foreign Minister
has a very substantial aid programme in the South Pacific, and
generall the projects are worked out in co-operation. with the
countries concerned. We don't try to say to them, " Look, you've
got to have tractors", if they want something else. They put
in their requests, then there is some discussion about it,
but in aid projects, it's certainly not a question of Australia
telling people what's good for them. We are seeking to respond
to their own iwshes and development plans.
The suggestion that he was making -he was saying that they
have been offered Russian aid and they might have to look
more closely at it. He cited examples of South Pacific nations
being given hospitals when they didn't want hospitals because
they didn't have the staff or the equipment to run them
Prime Minister:
If there were any particular suggestions made, I'd like to
have them followed up, because it would seem to me to be quite / 8
8
against the general approach we've adopted in aid to try and
deliver it in forms which are unacceptable to the people
concerned. That's not what we're about.
Question: You have been increasing aid to the South Pacific and
playing a greater role. Will yourself be going to
Honoriara. Prime Minister
Present plans are, yes.
Question Using the 707 for the first time?
Prime Minister
No, I doubt it. We'll be going in the BAC I think.
Question But it is possible with the airstrip, isn't long
enough to take 707s.
Prime Minister
I think a BAC can get there quite happily.
Question Why the reluctance to initiate it?
Prime Minister
For short trips the BAC-111 is an adequate aircraft.
Anyway, I doubt if a 707 can land at Honiara. It might
be able to.
Question Are you surprised at the continuing criticism of the
Government purchase of these two jets coming from the
Opposition which itself wanted to purchase these aircraft
anyway. P-ime Minister
I ai surprised at Mr. Hayden's suggestion that we. should
charter a 747 from Qantas. I will get you to check the
figures afterwards. I think a charter from the United
Kindgom would be $ 360,000 with a $ 150,000 a week waiting time.
Really, the idea of flying around in a 747 seems to me
slightly ludicrous. But that was Mr. Hayden's suggestion
in the Parliament the other day. That suggestion was also / 9
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misleading because if it was correct it means he has accepted
the security argument which of course is what this is all about.
Look, I'm not surprised at anything the opposition does. If they
want to tag these aircraft as a personal possession of Malcolm
Fraser, so they say there's no security argument and all the rest,
and they also can't say there's no defence use, which is quite
untrue, there'll be 40 flights a year to Butterworth alone. They're
going to be used for refugees, for bringing refugees to this
country and you'll notice it's much too late to apologise to the
families of 300-400 people who might go down on the aircraft that
could be sabotaged or hijacked because a head of Government's on it.
Security assessment is that the risks Mal, are too great. He's not
just talking about the risks for Fraser, I'm more concerned in
that context but the risks for the other passengers who are on the
aircraft, who booked, thinking they are booking on a normal commercial
passenger flight but then you suddenly find that because a Head of
Gover-nment is on board that they are involved in risks to they
thamselves and I regard it as quite unacceptable and
sor--of" thing the Labor Party would or ought to be very
red-aced and there have been security concerns on a number of
occa= sions which at the very least cause very great inconvenience
to all the other passengers.
Question When you say security concerns have they been on defence er
Pri. me Minister
O n Singapore, nc on Singapore on one occasion, a member of a
Terrorist gang was found in the Airport and I was meant to be
flying out. They said there was a technical problem and took me
off and gave me dinner somewhere but everyone was unloaded from
the aircraft, all the luggage was unloaded from the aircraft and
everything was checked and put back. The delay was very considerable
but that was the kind of precaution that people felt they had to
take and you know it's not uncommon, the same sort of thing
occurred in the United States on the way from Jamaica and you know
in the United States they always blame it on loading delays but
get very uneasy about the need for security and
I find it increasingly hard to guarantee the sort of security
th-at they think is necessary. Not just for the Head of Government
butl-for the other passengers who are involved. I think it would
be grossly wrong-to continue to put at risk an. international
fllgnt and large numbers of private citizens.
Question Pr. i Minister, could be just take an embargo case for
Do you have the information on the
Prime Minister
No. Question Mrs Thatcher will be visiting Australia immediately after the
Prime Minister
Immediately after the Summit Conference.
Question I'm sorry yes.
Prime Minister
Yes, she'll be coming here and the United Kingdom authorities
raise the possibility with us a few days ago and obviously I
responded to that very willingly. Mrs Thatcher when first
British Prime Minister to be using, Sir Harold MacMillan after
] 953. The British Prime Ministers haven't make a habit of
ccmin-g to Australia and it's very pleasing so soon after
assuming Office that Mrs Thatcher has thought it useful to come
here for discussions on a wide range of issues in which both
Bri-ain and Australia have a concern.
Quest ion
Those issues will include of course, the matters to be raised at
CHC3RM. Prime Minister
Obviously we will be talking about the forthcoming meeting at
Lusaka. But there are many other issues I'll be looking forward
to a report on the Tokyo Summit itself. We'll be discussing
the conclusion of the general trade round, Australia's relationshir
with the comnmunity and there are a large number of issues in
which the opportunity for closer discussions with Mrs Thatcher
will be vastly useful certainly to Australia and I
think they must to Britain also or they wouldn't be
making the effort to come here.
Question Are aniy of the other leaders attending the Summit, expected to
visit Australia also.
Prime Minister
Ncr, at this stage, no. Secretary of State Vance will be here for
the ANZUS talks and we'll be obviously having discussions with
him on a wide range of issues I saw Prime Minister Ohiro
before the Tokyo Summit.
Question President Carter, being president twice, what's the likelihood
of him
Prime Minister
I think President Carter is obviously starting to get geered
up for next year's Presidential Election. It's unlikely that
he'll be doing much international visiting.
] 0
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Question Talking about overseas visotors. You've had no more approaches
indirectly or directly by the Shah to seek refuge out here.
Prime Minister
I've only had one very, very indirect approach. He wasn't seeking
refuge here. I think he might have been seeking to visit here
for a short while, but I think it is unlikely that that will
occur. Question
He ; wo'. ld not have been welcome.
Pr--' e minister
I wouldn't want -to put it in those terms I think it is unlikely
that he'll in fact be coming here. There would be great problems
if it were to eventuate.
Question There's just one, on the record. With spending cuts many people
would say that education should be the last area that cuts should
be made and I was wondering if you as a former Education Minister
wer-e concerned about this rigour of spending
Prime Minister
Well, there are many other people who believe that there has been
a great expenditure in education over the last 10 or so years and
that some restraint in that expenditure is now required. Now if
you're looking for building programmes and the general programmes
and the way the cost of education has escalated, it's almost getting
to a stage where more attention is being paid to the facilities
than to the quality of education which depend on the teacher's
relationships with the pupils. Facilities doesn't necessarily
lead to good education, there's still some backlog to be overcome
but enormous progress has been made.
Quest io n
Jusz one other thing. The decision with Gordon Barton and the DC 3' s
still puzzle a lot of people. Gordon Barton said that he might
approach you directly, Has he done so.
Pr-izme Mrs
No. it hasn't got o n to my desk. I thought he was doing fairly
well. Question He has done fairly well out of the Government too as he has
authority to take those aircraft across and I think its operation
has expanded under the authority you've given him. I've got no
doubt he'll always like more.
] 2-
Question On the background, I suppose. Are you confident that the
British will hold off on a decision on Zimbabwe until after
Lusaka.
Prime Minister
Well, on a background basis, totally.
Question Totally. Thank you very much Prime Minister.