RIME MINISTER'S * INTERVIEW WITH MIKE WILLESEE, 6 NOVEMBER 1975.
WILLESEE:, Prime Minister thanks for joining us. You seem very determined?
PRIME MINISTER: Quite.
WILLESEE: Totally determined?
PRIME MINISTER: On the central issue,. totally.
WILLESEE: The central issue, you mean that the Senate mustn't take money away from the Government?
PRIME MINISTER: That's right. Inr other words the PartyN'which the people give a majority in the House of Representatives must be allowed to govern.
WILLESEE: So on that issue you will hold fast, whatever the cost?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely.
WILLESEE: Whatever the cost?
PRIME MINISTER: Whatever the cost.
WILLESEE: You stand improving to be very good politics but I wonder if it is necessarily responsible leadership? I mean, Mr Fraser has made an offer; he'll allow the money to go through the Senate if you have an election by the end of next June. Now that can be interpreted in two ways: one that it's a sign of weakness and he's backing down; alternatively it can easily be seen that he is being responsible, he's giving a chance to the situation to be resolved?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm not wanting to emphasise weakness; I don't want to make it difficult for Mr Fraser to do the right thing. I agree he doesn't deserve much sympathy; he's done the wrong thing and he's failed. But I'm not going to use any terms such as weakness or climbing down. But the other thing is this, that his offer, when you look at it seriously, involves me going to the Governor-General now and telling the Governor-General that in six months time I will be advising him to issue writs for the House of Representatives. In other words Mr Fraser is deferring the payment of the ransom; he's saying that the hijack can be put off another six months..
WILLESEE: Do you concede any circumstances where a Senate would be justified in stopping the Government's supply of money?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I would not concede that there are any circumstances ever. And incidentally, nobody has ever up till now, thought that was the case. There have been many cases in the past and in the 1960' s it happened constantly where the Federal Government didn't have a majority of the Senators as its supporters. And never has the Senate rejected a Money Bill.
WILLESEE: I wondered if wb could imagine an extreme case, as extreme
as you like, if perhaps the roles were reversee. you ". ad power in the
Senate and the Government of the day wanted to put hundreds of thousands
of conscripts into a war, that was perhaps a civil war, and you knew
that the population of your country didn't approve, an extreme case?
PRIME MINISTER: Well there 4, s no doubt,.,
WILLESEE: And you had the power to stop it?
PRIME MINISTER: What by cutting off money?
WILLESEE: Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: No, no I would still not. And this did happen. The first year that I was Leader of the Labor Party in the Federal Parliament, in 1967, you will remember that the Senate had disallowed some regulations to put up postal and telegraph charges . and then a couple of months later the Holt Government brought those increased charges in with the Budget Bills, it brought them in as a Money Bill. And there was a big argument...
WILLESEE: Yes, but I think that...
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, well this was a Money Bill in the Budget context and I persuaded the Labor Party not to persist in its opposition, to let the Budget, including the increased charges...
WILLESEE: Yes, but that's not an extreme case is it? I'm just wondering because I'm trying to test the principles...
PRIME MINISTER: Yes sure.
WILLESEE: to see how much it can be.
PRIME MINISTER: The answer is I would still, I would still not endorse the rejection of a Budget or refusal of Supply.
WILLESEE: No matter how extreme and gross the evil of the Government?
PRIME MINISTER: That's right. That's right.
WILLESEE: Isn't that a bit silly putting principle before perhaps peoples lives?*
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, I mean this is a tough case but I still stick to what I say. I don't believe that the Senate should reject Money Bills or the Budget.
WILLESEE: So you reject the argument also that it's a question of
whether the Senate is being wise in using this extreme power at the
moment, not a matter of whether it can. It's not a question of
whether. PRIME MINISTER: I don't concede they can, but nevertheless I'm certain
they never should. And they never have up tilinow. There's been 139
Money Bills which have been passed by the Senate at a time when the
Government didn't have a majority in the Senate. So this is the first
time it has ever been tried.
WILLESEE: You're totally firm on that principle?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely.
WILLESEE: Your opponents aren't and that's why we have this deadlock.
I think its proper that I should put some questions to you based on
their opposition...
PRIME MINISTER: Sure.
WILLESEE: questioning the Government's right to govern. You have
a mandate twice in a very short time.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: But they say, I think I'm accurate in saying, they narrow
it down to two elements which can now be considered further to the
last election, the economy and the loans affairs? The economy,
briefly. Do you accept that there is evidence that says we have not
controlled inflation as well here as comparable countries?
PRIME MINISTER: No, the evidence, the latest evidence, is ' rather the
other way. For instance the wage component of inflation is now better
controlled I'm not particularly keen on using that term in relation to
incomes but nevertheless it is better controlled in Australia than in
a great many other...
WILLESEE: You say the latest, I think that it's fair that we should
consider the last 18 months or 2 years because that's the period of
judgment. PRIME MINISTER: Yes, you can see developments over that period. Yes,
sure. WILLESEE: There are several things that seem to go against what you say.
One is that we didn't have the oil crisis that precipitated or made worse
the situation in other countries.
PRIME MINISTER: But there's no doubt that the oil business in the
Middle-East has put up costs in Australia. But not as much as in some
other Western countries that's true.
WILLESEE: Would you also agree we should be more naturally...
PRIME MINISTER: I mean let's face it, oil hasn't hurt the United States
or Canada, either of them; it'. 1s hurt mainly the Western Europeans.
WILLESEE: Do you accept that we should be more naturally healthy and
economically resiliant than many of those other countries that you
compare us with?
PRIME MINISTER: On the whole package we're very similar to North
America, Western Europe and Japan. And in general we compare quite
favourably.
WILLESEE: The other thing on the matter of the economy is that you have
sacked, or demoted, or allowed to leave, all of your senior economic
ministers, all of the original ones.
PRIME MINISTER: I've changed some of them round Yes.
WILLESEE: Isn't that a concession on your part of faults in your
management of the economy?
PRIME MINISTER: It's a very difficult job being Treasurer.
WILLESEE: But all of your managers have gone
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, the Treasurer that's the significant one.
The Treasurer. I've had three Treasurers; I now have the best
Treasurer that this country's had for decades.
WILLESEE: You've had two that you feel failed in one respect or
another? PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Over that period that is relevant to this case. Isn't that
an admission of some incompetence in your administration?
PRIME MINISTER: I've now found a better one.
WILLESEE: How about someone like Mr Connor, people talk about lack
of business confidence; it couldn't be more marked than the mining field..-
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, you're unfair to Mr Connor there; he was
dealing with some very tough people. But he did not go because of any
failures in administration.
WILLESEE: Despite the...
PRIME MINISTER: I mean let's face the, let's acknowledge, what
Mr Connor has had to put up with. The Senate in July, I think it was,
last year, disallowed regulations made under the Atomic Energy Act,
which the Menzies Government had passed in 1953. This was sheer
cussedness by the Senate, that put things back. Again we've had to
wait 5 and a half years now for this legislation on seas and submerged
lands. It was brought in unde r Gorton, by McMahon, in April 1970.
WILLESEE: But that's concentrating on the Senate not on the Mr Connor.
I mean if you did it all again would you like Mr Connor to go in and
handle business in Australia in the same way?
PRIME MINISTER: Don't blame Mr Connor for any of these business things.
I won't have you insinuating that. I don't endorse what you're putting
to me.
WILLESEE: Well I'd like to put it as a straight question.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: If you did it again, had another go, would you put Mr Connor
in and let him deal with the Australian, that section of the Australian
business community, exactly the same way again?
PRIME MINISTER: Mr Connor did some magnificent things where it was
open to him to do it, that is, in the coal industry for instance.
There's no doubt the coal industry in Queensland and New South Wales
is ever so much more prosperous now than it was when he came in. As
regards uranium, and off-shore oil, he has been very grievously hindered
by the States.
WILLESEE: But the overall question was, would you have him do it the
same way again?
PRIME MINISTER.: My appointment was correct. Mr Connor has been a very
great Australian; he's done an immense amount to develop Australian
resources and to give Australians the opportunity to share in that
development.
WILLESEE: Don't you think that that industry has been confused?
PRIME MINISTER: It's been very obstructive and so on and the
States confuse
WILLESEE: It has been confused by your lack of plans.
PRIME MINISTER: No: and that's not true; that is not true. Everybody
knew what laws we wanted to make. We wanted to put through the
legislation that the Gorton Government introduced in April 1970,
we did at last get it through and then it's been held up by State
challenges all States, all six of them in the High Court and the
High Court still hasn't given its judgment. The atomic, the uranium.
business was put into confusion because the Senate rejected the
regulations made under the Menzies Act of 1953.
WILLESEE: Could the country have been better managed economically
in the past two years?
PRIME MINISTER: In the light of the knowledge and skill that we now
have, yes, of course it could. But let's face it, every Western country
has been going through this exceptional situation.
WILLESEE: The loans affair is fairly indigenous?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Why did you want all1 that money in the first place?
PRIME MINISTER: So as principally to help develop our natural resources.
WILLESEE: Did you have feasibility studies done on how you would spend
the money?'
PRIME MINISTER: In many cases, yes.
WILLESEE: Why, weren't they revealed?
PRIME MINISTER: Many of them have been. We know what it will cost to
develop offshore oil. We know what it will cost to develop uranium.
We know what it will cost to develop coal resources, coal ports. We
know all that. No mystery about that.
WILLESEE: Why did you avoid the traditional manner of getting approval
for such fund raisings in Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: The traditional method was adopted, that is, authority
was given to a Minister to raise the loan.
WILLESEE: Is there any precedent for that?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: That amount of money, avoiding the Loan Council?
PRIME MINISTER: Not that amount. Wait a bit, you say avoiding the
Loan Council? No. The States would have been involved in a very great
deal of this. You couldn't have built the coal ports or developed
coal resources without doing it through the States.
WILLESEE: You decided to raise some money?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: A large amount of money?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, to see if it was available, yes.
WILLESEE: An amount of money without precedent?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. Mind you, when you say without precedent,
companies aim to raise that sort of amount. The CRA gave evidence to
the Tariff Board that it would be needing that sort of money in the
space, I'think, of about 4 years. So it's not a staggering amount.
WILLESEE: Well, isn't if fair to even use a term like staggering when
the Government has raised nothing like that in one sum before?
PRIME MINISTER: The Government hasn't, the Australian Government
cases have raised such amounts.
WILLESEE: Now, it wasn't a traditional way of getting approval was it?
PRIME MINISTER: Authority from the Executive Council? Certainly it was.
WILLESEE: What's the precedent for that? I'm talking about comparable
amounts of money; there's no precedent
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, for that amount being raised by the Government.
But the method of raising money is always the same; you do it under
Executive Council authority.
WILLESEE: Having got that approval, why did you then avoid the traditiona.'
avenues of fund raising abroad?
PRIME MINISTER: We had offers put to us. And of course we've
had many offers put to us. Three have been debated in the Parliament.
WILLESEE: Is that sufficient reason for not checking with the
traditional and historically responsible sources?
PRIME MINISTER: We adopted all the checks that had ever been used.
That is, the Attorney-General's Department, the Reserve Bank, the
Treasury and the relevant departments were all involved.
WILLESEE: So you approved Mr Khemlani then as a reliable man?
PRIME MINISTER: No, he didn't make any offer. I'm not saying whether
Mr Ehemlani is reliable or not. The fact is that he never made an
offer and as a result, as I made plain in the Parliament months and
months ago, no money has been paid to Mr Khemlani; no money has to be
paid to Mr Khemlani; no money will be paid to Mr Khemlani. And I
gather from Mr Rhemlani's statutory declaration he complains that
our tests were so tough.
WILLESEE: I don't think that's quite in question. It was the manner
of trying to get the money that I think is in question. I think....
PRIM. E MINISTER: He never made an offer.
WILLESEE: July 9 in Parliament, you talked about a national and
international conspiracy I presume you were talking about the money
world that would take any steps to harm Australia or harm the
Australian Government even if it meant harming Australia. Now was
that the real reason that you refused to go to traditional sources?
PRIME MINISTER: No, we would be quite entitled to consider any offers
that were made to us. No offer was made. We could have used that
money. The money is needed. And it would be a very good deal to get
that sum of money on the terms, which we were prepared to accept. We
will need that sort of money to develop our natural resources. We will
need it.
WILLESEE: But why deal with people on the fringe of the money world
rather than established sources?
PRIME MINISTER: If anybody had made an offer, then it would have
been accepted, if it was on proper terms.
WILLESEE: How do people know to make an offer of $ 4000 million?
PRIME MINISTER: This sort of money is raised by companies, as I
mentioned. WILLESEE: Yes but you made the approach, surely you tell them you want
the money.
PRIME MINISTER: No, no people know that we are prepared to borrow money
if it is on satisfactory terms and no offer was made in this case.
So therefore we didn't borrow any money. What I think you're
referring to is this, that there has been a very big change in the
last two years in the sources of money. The oil people have a very
great deal of money to lend. And they're looking for good borrowers
and Australia is in the top rank of borrowers. our credit is not
exceeded by any country. in the world; we have a triple rating.
WILLESEE: Do you say it's O. K. because of the changed circumstances,
accumulation-of wealth, but is there any precedent for people such as
those that Mr Connor and Dr Cairns were dealing with, the fringe money
dwellers as well as if I could call them. Is there any precedent for
those people raising a loan of this amount? $ 4 billion?
PRIME MINISTER: You're using the establishment term, fringe money.
Ten years ago the oil countries didn't have a cent to lend, now they
have thousands of millions of dollars to lend.
WILLESEE: But is there a precedent for these people? I'm not talking
about the Arabs.
PRIME'MINISTER: Well, I am, I am.
WILLESEE: Do you know of any such loans that these men have raised?
PRIME MINISTER: No I don't know what loans, if any, Mr Khemlani has
raised. WILLESEE: Don't you think it's a little bit strange as a business
practice? PRIME MINISTER: We were prepared we still are of course to consider
any reasonable offer. But no offer was ever put by Mr Khemlani.
WILLESEE: Alright, this national and international conspiracy you
talk about?
PRIME MINISTER: Did I? Did I?
WILLESEE: Yes, Parliament on July 9.,
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, well I'm..
WILLESEE: You gave as one of the reasons why you would go away from the
traditional sources because you felt that they didn't have your interests
at heart, and they were trying to hurt you, the Labor Government.
PRIME MINISTER: Obviously, obviously, the people that raise money and
lend money over the years want to keep that businesq to themselves.
That's all I said...
WILLESEE: You said more than that; you said they would use any weapons
they could to harm the Labor Government?
PRIME MINISTER: I frankly don't remember the details. I mean I'm
not disputing or...
WILLESEE: Did you have anyone in mind?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
WILLESEE: Do you have any evidence of such a conspiracy?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't remember saying it. Did I use the word
conspiracy?
WILLESEE: Conspiracy, national and international.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I assume that it was because those people that
had always had the business of lending money to Australia wanted to
keep the business to themselves or they wanted any new lenders to go
through them.
WILLESEE: Now with Dr Cairns, you dismissed him because of the letter
which indicated he'd misled Parliament. You made a statement on July 1
and you referred to having been shown the letter the day before. You
didn't say whether you'd been shown it for the first time, you said
you'd been shown it. Had you in fact seen that letter prior to that
PRIME MINISTER: No, no. This is getting a bit far away from the Budget
isn't it? Isn't it? ' Cause this hasn't been mentioned at all in the
last 3 or 3 and a half weeks that the Liberal and Country Party Senators
have been stalling on a vote for the Budget. This has not been
mentioned. This isn't said to be an excuse for this unprecedented
conduct by the opposition.
WILLESEE: Well I'm not basing it all my questions on what the Opposition
could do?
PRIME MINISTER: I thought you were. I thought that's how you were
leading in.
9. WILLESEE: No, well because they talk about questions not being
answered and I think...
PRIM4E MINISTER: Well, that's not true. Every question has been
answered. WILLESEE: Now you say you hadn't seen that letter. When you first
saw that letter, which was because of a publication in a newspaper,
you then took action...
PRIME MINISTER: Look I forget the details on this.
WILLESEE: Well specifically, because it's very important.
PRIME MINISTER: I gave of course it is, and it is all in
Hansard and nobody has disputed it since and you said not answering
questions. Every question which I've been asked I have answered. I
think there's over 200 of them. There's not a single question on the
notice paper now and I wasn't asked a question today in Parliament.
I know these allegations are made but the fact is...
WILLESEE: Having raised this I think it's fair to round up that
Dr Cairns says quite categorically, that the head of your Department,
Mr Menadue, had sent you a copy of that letter, June 18.
PRIME MINISTER: That's right, and I was in Launceston at the time.
WILLESEE: Your departmental head wouldn't have shown you a letter that
was worthy of a Minister being sacked?
PRIME MINISTER: I was in Launceston at the time and as with every
piece of paper, I've said, send it to the interdepartmental
conirnittee which is looking at all these matters. What ' I was intent
to know was whether the Australian Government was liable to make any
payments in any of these matters. And the advice all along has been,
including on that letter, No.
WILLESEE: Don't you think it's a bit strange that your Department
could have that letter...
PRIME MINISTER: No I don't.
WILLESEE: not give it to you and it's up to a newspaper to publish
it and then you took action?
PRIME MINISTER: No. It's all been argued and you're now making
allegations that nobody has been prepared to make.
WILLESEE: I would think they're questions rather than allegations.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. Yes, well, I didn't see it on the date you
mentioned. You say June the 18th.
WILLESEE: Yes, from Mr Menadue to Dr Cairns.
PRIME MINISTER: Well wait a bit, Ill look it up in my diary. Yes, I
was in Launceston that day. On Wednesday the 18th I signed the
Medibank Agreement in Launceston with the Premier of Tasmania. Any
other date?
WILLESEE: It took 13 days
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, well wait a bit, any other date? You mentioned
a date and I answered fou.
WILLESEE: No, I don't think it's very relevant where you were.
PRIME MINISTER: You say did I see it on the 18th and I tell you
where I was.
WILLESEE: You could have been told; were you told, about the letter
before that?
PRIME MINISTER: No I wasn't.
WILLESEE: You weren't aware of it until the newspaper published it?
PRIME MINISTER: I forget exactly when the newspaper published it.
I mean the facts are very clear, they've been argued months ago. They
have no relevance to the present situation.
WILLESEE: Mr Connor's dismissal was also triggered by a newspaper
publication. PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Do you assert that that was your first knowledge of that
information?
PRIME MINISTER: of most of the documents that the Melbourne Herald
published and which it gave me Yes.
WILLESEE: Of the relevant material?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
WILLESEE: Another thing about Dr Cairns I think I should put to you.
Your comments about Dr Cairns and Mr Connor being sacked on ' A Current
Affair' led Dr Cairns later to say, " If he said that he, himself was
distorting the-situation..."
PRIME MINISTER: Look if you don't mind I'm not going to connive at
the handling of that program, that program ' A Current Affair' because
your rival there has played it several times in different versions.
Yes if you don't mind I'm not going to comment on selections from one
or more of the playings of that program.
WILLESEE: I was going to go past what you said and go to what Dr Cairns
said. PRIME MINISTER: No, well I'm not going to respond to that.
WILLESEE: Alright, now this current situation has certainly
introduced... PRIME MINISTER: What we're coming back to current matters? Righto..
WILLESEE: Well, I'm not sure that they're not all current. There's
a new tone in politics now.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes isn't there?
WILLESEE: Dirty politics do you think?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, not particularly, what's happened is that
the Liberal leadership is now being.-shown to be extraordinarily
impatient and greedy. That is, this new conservative leadership has
been exposed. It's been a revelation. I mean I wasn't surprised.
But the public in general didn't realise what Mr Fraser as leader
would lead our opponents into doing.
WILLESEE: But in fighting this out day to day, don't you think it's
getting a little dirty?
PRIME MINISTER: Well be specific. I mean I've been...
WILLESEE: Alright, well Mr Fraser and Mr Anthony are making suggestions
about you becoming irrational, I think.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, yes they say I'm going mad.
WILLESEE: Yes, well they're imputing something about your state
of mind?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes that's right.
WILLESEE: That's dirty politics or is that fair politics?
PRIME MINISTER: I'll let the public judge that. Anybody following
the Parliament, I think, would think that they were wide of the mark.
WILLESEE: You also want the public to judge your allegations about
Mr Anthony in the CIA?
PRIME MINISTER: They were right weren't they?
WILLESEE: But surely your....
PRIME MINISTER: I didn't mention the man's name. I didn't mention the
job he did. I didn't mention where he did the job and Mr Anthony,
he mentioned thope things and confirmed everything that I'd learnt.
WILLESEE: An association with CIA money has fairly sinister
conotations doesn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course, it has. And...
WILLESEE: He rented his house for $ 500.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, that's not the money one's referring to.
WILLESEE: Well, what is your allegation?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I'm going in that respect on the allegations that
the Financial Review makes. The Financial Review asserts that CIA
money has come into Australia to condition the political and economic
attitudes of Australians. I'm not saying that Mr Anthony was paid by
the CIA or that he handled money for the CIA. But Mr Anthony has had
very close domestic relations with a CIA chief in Australia and he
should have known better. And there's no dispute of this association.
WILLESEE: I accept that, but your allegation was association with CIA
money And as y6u say it's not really the rent which...
PRIME MINISTER: Well of course it's not; of course it's not.
A12. WILLESEE: What is the association with CIA money and Mr Anthony that's
the real basis of your allegation?
PRIME MINISTER: The Country Party of which Mr Anthony has been a
very senior and influential member for a long time; before he became
Leader, you know his father was a Country Party minister too it
should not have allowed itself to appear to be influenced by the CIA
against Australia's interests to the extent that it may well have been.
WILLESEE: That's by association with the CIA?
PRIME MINISTER: Of cours ' e it is, and it's a domestic association...
No.. No the association Mr Anthony let the country down and one who
should have known what he was doing by this domestic relationship
with a CIA chief in Australia. And America's interests as represented
by the CIA would in many cases be quite inimical to Australia's
interests.
WILLESEE: Are you suggesting that you would withdraw your basic, your
first allegation, of Anthony being associated with CIA money?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, I don't want it to be thought that Mr Anthony
received any money from the CIA; I don't want it to be thought that
Mr Anthony handled any money from the CIA; I do believe that the CIA
has put money into Australia. But what is absolutely certain, that
Mr Anthony had an undue association with a CIA chief in Australia,
extending over several years and this was against Australia's interests.
And a senior politician, like Mr Anthony, should have known better and
should have done better. I
WILLESEE: There are a few other allegations that, the cost of gifts and
some questions on notice...
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, yes, you're referring to Mrs Sinclair receiving
jewellery worth $ 16,000 for launching two ships. Now that was a grossly
excessive present to receive.
WILLESEE: But how do you know that it wdas $ 16,000?
PRIME MINISTER: She said so.
WILLESEE: She was reported as saying so?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, well, of course she was. She was speaking at
a political gathering in Albury and she stated that and it was
reported. And the report has not been denied, although it's been
referred to in the Parliament more than once in the last week.
WILLESEE: Do you think it's proper that these things are now coming
before the Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I think he was a darned fool to do it. And
inferences can be drawn. I've been subject to all sorts of allegations
for years. None of them have ever stuck. You seem to have touched on
the periphery of some of them in the last few minutes. But I've never
had an association such as Mr Anthony has obviously had with a CIA
chief. I've never received, nor my wife,. any gifts such as Mrs Sinclair
received. And these were very unwise things for them to do. And they've
been exposed in the current circumstances and the public is entitled
to know what sort of people are behind the obstruction to the elected
Government. Prime Minister thanks very much.