EI4BA RCO: 8.30 Pm 2
PRIME MINISTER'S INTERVIEW WITH KERRY O'BRIEN ON. FOUR CORNERS
SATURDAY 18 OCTOBER 1975
O'BRIEN: Mr Whitlam at the outset can we ascertain one thing:
is there going to be a half Senate election?
PRIME MINISTER: There well may be; I will1 not be certain
about this until or unless the Senate rejects * the Budget Bills.
At' this stage they have not rejected them. they've just moved
to defer them.
O'BRIEN: Is it as clear cut as that~ that until such time as
they actually reject the Bills, if they just keep delaying and
delaying? PRIME MINISTER: If it becomes clear that from the extent and
the duration of the delays that they're only hedging, that they
are, in effect, rejecting, then it is very likely that I will ask
for there to be a half Senate election.
O'BRIEN: Wouldn't that be a moot point as far as the public is
concernedJ I mean the situation is here, now?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's a very critical point among the Liberal
and Country Party not maybe among the Country Party but in
the Liberal Party there are very great qualms felt about rejecting
a money Bill. It's never happened in Australia in the Federal.
Parliament yet. And there have been many occasions when the
Government that is, the party with the majority in the House
of Representativeshas not had a majority in the Senate. But
in those circumstances there have been 139 Bills which could
have been rejected by a Senate, where there was an anti-Government
majority, but it's never been done. So they are very reluctant
to come to that crunch.
~ O'BRIEN: Well~ what is your scenario of the next few months?
PRIME MINISTER: All I can be positive about at this stage is
that I will not advise the Governor-General to issue the writs
for the House of Representatives election at the behest of
the Senate. That is, as long as I have a majority in the House
of Representatives.
O'BRIEN: How long can you afford to stall?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, this is two Parties here, each taking up
an attitude; one will have to yield. I will not yield on this
issue. It is central not just for my government but for any
Australian Government from now on,, it is an impossible situation
if the Senate can dictate when there are House of Representatives
elections. I will not cop that.
O'BRIEN: Do you hold out any hope that Mr Frasbr might yet
back down?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not going to speculate on what will happ en
in the Liberal Party. All I'm positive about is, that as long
as I have a ' majority in the House of Representatives I will never
advise the Governor-General to issue writs for a House of
Representatives election at the behest of the Senate. I will stand
firm on that, no question whatever.
1~ O'BRIEN: What's your own analysis of how a half-Senate election
would go; could you in political reality hope to gain a temporary
majority in the Senate?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes. There are six persons who would be in the
Senate from the day that the polls were declared: six persons
who are not there now. The rest of the Senate, that is the
successors to the people who were elected to the Senate, would not
take office until the first of July. But following on the High
Court decision of Friday week, there will be two Senators for the
Northern Territory and two from the Australian Capital Territory
from the day that the polls are declared and also there would be
a replacement in Queensland and New South Wales for the two
appointments, non Labor appointments, which were made to succeed
the former Labor Senators. So there would be six Senators from
the day that the polls were declared, as distinct from next July.
O'BRIEN: What are you prepared to put the country through in
terms of Public Service disruption?
PRIME MINISTER: Well we obviously will do all we can to remove
or reduce the distress that will be caused to Public Servants,
soldiers, patients under Medibank, people in aged persons homes,
students, all those people that can't get payments from the
taxes until the Australian Government gets its Budget passed.
O'BRIEN: Although it was Mr Fraser's decision that forced the
situation, do you have any moral right to expect or ask the
country to share that with you?
PRIME MINISTER: Certainly, certainly. This is quite basic
to democracy in Australia. The Constitution says-and everybody
has assumed-that the House of Representatives should last for
k' three years. Now the proposition that is being put up by the
Opposition under Mr Fraser's dictation at the moment is: that
if the Government, the Party with the majority in the House of
Representatives 6oesn't have a majority in the Senate,-that is
O if it is in a minority or if it only has half of the Senatorsit
can be made to have an election at any time within that
three years. Obviously in Octoberwhen the Budget has to be
passed or in April with the Supply has to be passed. Now this
is an intolerable situation. No Prime Minister would have
accepted it in my time Menzies' wouldn't; Holt wouldn't; Gorton
wouldn't and Gorton of course doesn't accept it now.
O'BRIEN: To what extent would you be relying on drastic economic
disruption to turn public opinion against Mr Fraser?
PRIME MINISTER: There will certainly be a great deal of disruption,
From all the signs I see, from hundreds of telegrams pouring into
the office, and also of course, crowds that you saw outside
Parliament House admittedly that was Canberra, full of Public
Servants-on Thursday; from all those indications people are very
much aroused by this thing. Not just Labor supporters; it's true
that in my Government's first term there was a similar threat
half way through. Well, we took it then. Now there is a threat
a second time, midway through our second term; we will not accept
it this time.
O'BRIEN: Just on the point of public support; are you concerned that
a militant response from trade unionists could led to political
violence? -2-
PRIME MINISTER: I don't know what you mean by political violence?.
O'BRIEN: In the current...
PRIME MINISTER: I don't know what you mean by political violence
are you meaning, you know, physical violence?
O'BRIEN: Yes physical violence?
PRIME MINISTER: . Oh) I would certainly hope not. Bu't there can be no question...
O'BRIEN: Do you see that the mood is there?
PRIME MINISTER: PeoDle are very incensed, they are very roused
by this and the appalling thing is of course, that it'Is the
conservatives who have flouted the conventions. It was
conservative governments that broke the convention about appointing
Senators of the same party as former Senators to vacancies. It
is now conservatives who are flouting the convention that the
Budget and money Bills generally are passed by the Senate.. And
Qit is the conservatives who are threatening that StLate non-Labor
Governments will advise State Governors,., not just the Governor
of Governor of Queensland but State Governors in general . to
refuse the Governor-General's request to issue writs for a half-
Senate election. Now the conservatives are putting all these
basic conventions in jeopardy.
O'BRIEN: Well what of the conservatives point tha t, in fact, o
wanted to reject Supply in the Senate in 1* 970? yo
PRiME MINISTER: There was one money Bill te, wst it? I know
0 this is constantly... Mind you if they think that the view I
expressed on a particular money Bill at that time was correct..
why don't they reject Supply? But they're shrinking from that.
I did in fact express that view; I might have been right or I might
have been wrong. If they think it is right, why don't they
0bite the bullet, why don't they reject the Budget They haven't.
O'BRIEN: Isn't that awkward ground for you now to be arguing on?
IRIME MINISTER: No, no. When it was for real, let me quote this
there is no question about this circumstance. In 1967 the
: 1 Holt Government was in a minority in the Senate and we and the DLP
-whom I got rid of at the last election combined to reject
increased postal charges: they are not money Bills incidentally
under the Constitution. When the Budget came on the Holt Government
reintroduced those in the form of money Bills. And when they did
that I successfully argued in the Caucus that we should not oppose
them. Now there was a big fight in the Caucus on this, some of
p the Labor Senators wanted to vote against the money Bills; they
could have done it; I said that it was wrong. And I prevailed.
That is when it has been for real when there has been an anti-
Government majority in the Senate that could have rejected a
money Bill, I successfully strove to see that the Labor Party
didn't connive at that course.
O'BRIEN: Isn't expediency the first convention of politicians?
PRI14E MINISTER: No, no" oh no. What my Government does, what I
do as Prime Minister now, can affect every subsequent Australian
Government. If I don't stand firm orn the principle that money Bills
are the responsibility of the Government that Governments are made
7
yor unmade in the House of Representatives, then every subsequent
Australian Government will be under threat by a Senate in which
it doesn't hiave a majority, twice-a year. And it is impossible
for any political party, even in the most'-tranquil times, to have
predominant popularity throughout a three year term. ' No Governmen~ t
can be sure that it will popular in six months' time.
O'BRIEN: Quite obviously') you will be arguing Constitutional crisis
as a main thrust in the campaign?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, quite,, quite; and this is a winning issue.
O'BRIEN: Mr Fraser on the other hand argues the totality of your
performance in government. A failed Budget...
PRIME MINISTER: No...
SO'BRIEN:-' and of the loans affair?
PRIME MINISTER: How can you say that the Budget has failed when
it hasn't been passed? This election when and if it takes placewill
be very largely on the Budget. And for the first time
Mr Fraser would then have to say on behalf of the Liberal and
presumably the Country Par-ties what sort of Budget the Senate would
pass. This is just not an idle thing criticising our'Budget:
it would be a question of what Budget would it pass, what Budget
do they think would be better? And as any viewer would know_.
I'm satisfied that the public believes that Hayden is a better
Treasurer than Lynch would be.
iJ
O' BRIEN: What about his other point., that you have had to sack
two senior ministers because they misled. you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well these are very big wounds for the Government)
obviously. And I regret to say that these two senior colleagues
misled. the Parliament. They have paid the penalty.
0 O'BRIEN: 11ow does a man of reputed abilities and experience
allow that, to happen?
PRIME MINISTER: I suppose I was too trusting. These were people
who had been in Parliament in one case for 20 years and in another
case for 25 years. They should have known better.
O'BRIEN: Do you accept Mr Khemlani's claim that he's been in such
close and constant touch with Mr Connor?
PRIM4E MINISTER: I don't know; I don't know whether that is so or
not. O'BRIEN: Did Mr Connor explain to you why he misled', you?
PRIME MINISTER: No~ he didn't. He didn't dispute that Mr Khemlani
had sent him several telexes about which of course he hadn't told
me, nor the Parliament. But these are side issues. This might
have driven the opposition to the brink) as Senator Gair' s. appointment
* to Ireland. During the campaign you never -heard about Gair.
O'BRIEN: But if we can just pursue that side issue for a moment.
You've said that dismissing Mr Connor, cr accepting his resignation,
was one of the most painful decisions
PRIME MINISTER: Yes of course it was.
O'BRIEN: of your life; how close were you to him?
PRIME MINISTER: I thought he was a very capable man. And he
has done, he has produced, a transformation in the attitude of
Australians to their resources. He's been terribly delayed
of course by challenges in the Courts, by actions of the Senate.
But he has brought about a complete transformation in the terms
upon which Australians are able to develop their resources or
sell the products of their resources.
O'BRIEN: Was he an influence on you politically?
PRIME MINISTER: We were on each of us. He is a very able man
indeed. It s distressing that he made this error, a gross error;
an isolated error, I believe. But he has paid the penalty.
O'BRIEN: And you accept none of the blame for either of those two?
PRIME MINISTER: None whatever. I knew nothing about these telexes. He never told
me. He never told anyone. But these are side issuesquite
frankly. Connor's influence on Australia's resources for the good
will endure. It was remarkable the way, when the Liberals
bought out their policy on natural resources or overseas
investment last Monday it was a copy of what we'd brought out a
week earlier.
Q O'BRIEN: Just one last question on that side issue. Does
the buck not stop at Gough Whitlam's desk? Could the Opposition
fairly claim that~ as they also fairly claim~ that under the
Westminster system you should resign?
O PRIME MINISTER: They are wrong. Once I knew that a second
minister had misled the Parliament, there was only one course
he had to go, and he did. Whenever I have found anything like
this, I have acted immediately.
O'BRIEN: Is it political reality to think that you have the
option now ahead of you, of loss or victory at the polls, or
is it more a choice between decimation and respectable loss?
PRIME MINISTER: I believe that if my Government goes the
three years for which it was elected, we shall win. After all,
this is a very good Budget, a very good Budget. I think it
will be a popular Budget, but it must by given an opportunity
to work. And this constant threat which we've hadyou
knowtwice a year in the three years we've been in about
rejecting money Bills. because this has been threatened every
time, it was threatened the first six months wewere in
in April 1973 it was threatened. This obviously upsets
business confidence.
O'BRIEN: In this campaign do you have more respect for . the
Opposition leader now than you have had for his predecessors? / 6
6.
PRIME MINISTER: I thought I would have I now don't.
I think Mr Fraser...
O'BRIEN: I mean in terms of him as an opponent?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, I think Mr Fraser is now seen as
a naked opportunist. He'll do anything. he was getting rid of
Holt he got rid of Gorton; he got rid of Snedden; on the
second occasion. And I think people see that he will stop
at nothing. He will eschew no. methods to get into office.
O'BRIEN: Ifafter a half Senate election~ the decision was
made on the vote of Senator Albert Field to go to a double
dissolution, to what extent would you exploit him as an
issue? PRIME MINISTER: Mind you, you're assuming that if the
Governor-General asks the State Governors to issue writs
I( T fhoarv e aa Ssekenda teo n el24e ctpiroenvi, o-usso meotchciansgi ownhsi cahn dG wohviecrnho resv-eGreyn eSrtaalte
Governor has always complied withyou're assuming that if
that's done) Mr Bjelke-Petersen would advise Sir Colin
Hannah not to issue thewrits. From what I know of Mr
Bjelke-Petersenkhe might well do that. From what we now
know of Sir Colin Hannah he is the sort of man who might,
for the first time, break a three-quarters of a century
convention in Australia. The conservatives will stop at
nothing: Premiers, or, I regret to say, some State Governors.
/ h O'BRIEN: Are you aware of a groundswill of support for you with-
I J in the Party now like you haven't bad before? Do you feel that
you're standing is higher?
PRIME MINISTER: Well there's no question in our Party
there is a strong feeling of support that this is an outrage
we cannot cop. On the other hand the Liberal Party
is unquestionably beset by qualms over this.
O'BRIEN: Why does it take potential disaster like this for
the Party to pull you together?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't feel that it needs, that there is
a potential disaster, I don't feel that it needs a disaster
to pull us together. I think people don't realise that
political parties do change over the years. It's true that
the Scullin Government, the Lang Government, went to pieces,
the last time Australia was going through an economic situation,
world-wide as it was, similar to what Australia, and all
western societies, are going through now. But I don't believe
that this will happen to the Whitlam Government.
O'BRIEN: You've presented a picture in the last few days
of a man who's in a tight corner; who's come out fighting, and
you've looked like you're enjoying the fight. Would that
be an accurate observation?
PRIME MINISTER: I wouldn't be, I wouldn't stay, in this life
if I didn't think that there were compensations for the
rigours which it entails. It's a very tough life, but I've
been in it for a long time. I believe in the Parliamentary
system and I'm going to fLight for it.
O'BRIEN: Even allowing for your opti mism in the elections.,
if you did go into Opposition, would you want to stay on as
leader?
PRIME MINISTER: ' I haven't thought about that. Let that
happen. I don't concede it will. There will be a House of
Representatives election sometime before July 1977.
When it comes about~ I shall decide. I shall not advise
the Governor-General to issue the writs at the behest of
the Senate.
3 O'BRIEN: Mr Whitlam, thanks very much for app earing on
' our Corners'
Af