INTERVIEW BETWEEN THE PRIME MINISTER AND RICHARD CARLETON 31
" THIS DAY TONIGHT" 28 AUGUST, 1975
CARLETON: Good evening and welcome to This Day Tonight from Canberra.
If there was an election tomorrow then few would give Labor any
chance at all of being returned to power. But of course there's
not going to be an election tomorrow and if Mr Fraser is as good
as his word, there won't be an election at all this year, and
that's possibly just as well for the man who tomorrow celebrates
his 1,000th day as Prime Minister of Australia.
CARLETON: Mr Whitlam, do you think its possible to pinpoint any
particular reason or group of events that'll explain that great
turnaround from the euphoria of Decemuber 1972 when you swept into
power, to the doldrums that you're in now?
PRIME MINISTER: I think there are two matters, both continuing
matters, not sudden matters: one is economic and is universal;
one is political and is peculiar to Australia alone.
CARLETON: Well, explain the political one first.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, the process of obstruction that my Government
has been subjected to in the Parliament. This is a process of
obstruction which no previous Australian Government has ever
endured and also it is a process which was never forecast at the
1972 and the 1974 elections. Now this is, of course, a very great
difficulty for government and for business. They're always kept
in a state of uncertainty.
CARLETON: But how does that obstruction explain your low standing,
or your Government's low standing in the community. Because you
can't-. get those particular Bills through the Senate?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh yes, well there's almost a score of them.
Also, of course, there's not only the obstruction of the Senate,
there's obstruction by State Governments which have challenged
legislation which has gone through the Parliament in the High
Court and then there has been a general obstruction by all the
parliamentary devices which have been discovered in the last two
and a half years.
CARLETON: Well you seem to be suggesting, Sir, that if you could
have got those Bills through that are under challenge in the Courts
or by the States or in the Upper house, then you would be less
unpopular than you are at present
PRIME MINISTER: of course, a very great amount of the legislation
which we have got through is obviously beneficial but it's taken a
dickens of a time to get it through. Take the Trade Practices
legislation; everybody now applauds it. It took a year and a
half to get it through. Then look at the various Securities
legislation which has been foreshadowed for about four years.
It's still stalled. There's no doubt that the people would benefit
from it if it had gone through in the normal process. There's
legislation like the offshore resources. It was brought in by
our predecessors five and a half years ago and it's still under
challenge in the courts. Now there's no doubt that we'd benefit
if this matter had been resolved years ago.
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CARLETON: You'd be more popular if those...
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there's no question that these pieces of
legislation are inTportant. They were put to the people and presumably
endorsed by them at successive elections and they're been stalled
by one means and another.
CARLETON: Now on the other side, the economic side, universal as
the problem might be, why can't Labor, Labor of all parties, cure
unemplo yment and cure inflation?
PRIME MINISTER: Well you can ask why can't Governments of both
sides of politics cure unemployment at the moment. Wherever you
go, in North America, Western Europe and Australia, you get the
worst unemployment for 30 or 40 years. Now we may be responsible,
some people would think, for the position in Australia. We
obviously aren't responsible for the position in North America,
where it is worse, and in Western Europe, where it is just as
bad. Some countries are worse, some countries not as bad.
CARLETON: How do you look back to that 1972 campaign though, where
you berated Mr McMahon right round the country when unemployment
then was approaching two per cent?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, its twice as bad now, of course it is, but it's
at least twice as bad in every other country too.
CARLETON: Sir, if things look....
PRIME MINISTER: There's no country in the world that's anything
like Australia where unemployment is not worse than it was 2h-3 years
ago. CARLETON: Sir, since the Budget of last Tuesday, I think politically
things have been looking up for the Labor Party.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh undoubtedly, undoubtedly.
CARLETON: It's only ten days admittedly...
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
CARLETON: . but nevertheless...
PRIME MINISTER: But things change very quickly in politics.
Your original statement of course overlooks, I would suggest, the
fact that politics everywhere in the world is very volatile at
the moment, and during the course of an election campAign things can
do change quite remarkably. If you look back 2 years ago,
most of the people who were heads of government then, no longer are.
In the present circumstances I've been remarkably durable.
CARLETON: You've done well to survive do you think?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes indeed.
CARLETON: You have done well to survive?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you look around how many people who were
Presidents or Prime Ministers in December 1972, in comparable
countries, still are?
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CARLETON: Let's go back to the Budget then of last Tuesday, sir,
and I'll suggest that your stocks are looking higher over the
last ten days.
PRIME MINISTER: Certainly.
CARLETON: Now every armchair economist and yourself also, talking
of about this...
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I'm an armchair economist!
CARLETON:., Talking about business confidence, now how do you
measure this ephemeral thing how do you know when your Government
has got the confidence of business?
PRIME MINISTER: When business is making decisions to employ more
people or buy more equipment.
CARLETON: It's as simple as that?
PRIME MINISTER: They're the principal things.
CARLETON: Sir you've got to hold a half-Senate election before...
PRIME MINISTER: Before the end of June next year.
CARLETON: Yes. When are you going to hold it?
PRIME MINISTER: May or June.
CARLETON: It certainly won't be the end of this year?
PRIME M4INISTER: Oh no. I wouldn't be thinking so. I know there
has been a practice to hold elections for half the Senate in
the preceding December. My own view always has been that you
should have the Senate representing the people's view as close
to the time they take office as possible. I think May or June.
CARLETON: Sir, what chance do you -think that your Government has
got of persuading the unions to accept that very special form of
indexation that you are asking them to accept now, namely that
the tax increases that came from last Tuesday week's Budget, are
not included in the indexation calculation for the next quarter?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh we've got a reasonable chance of persuading
the unions to it, but of course where we have to persuade is before
the Arbitration Commission, and every State Government has been
persuaded by us to support our general approach in these National
Wage Cases. This has been a remarkable achievement. After all what
a government does is not merely what is done fiscally, its also
what is done monetarily, and what is done in respect to incomes
and we have a remarkable success in putting our point of view to
the Arbitration Commission in respect of incomes and I hope we
will continue to.
CARLETON: Why did you finally 5ack Mr Cameron?
PRIME MINISTER: I believe that Senate James McClelland could do
the job better. I transferred Mr Cameron; I didn't sack him.
I've sacked one man. But obviously the changes that have been made
in the Ministry have strengthened the Ministry. We couldn't have
got as good a Budget as we have, had I not made those changes a couple
of months ago: the first significant changes, incidentally, for 2 years.
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CARLETON: Sir, have the farmers the beef industry aside have
the farmers still never had it so good?
PRIME MINISTER: Well in some cases obviously in the sugar.
industry that would be the case.
CARLETON: You're being very specific there. What about the
wo6l industry itself?
PRIME MINISTER: Well you can't say primary production as a whole,
because obviously primary production varies according to weather
and according to overseas markets. Overseas markets for sugarhave
never been so good. Overseas markets for beef have never
been so bad. But you can't blame us for the beef markets.
After all, if Japan or Werstern Europe cut down entirely and if
America compells us to make voluntary restraints, you're left
in the lurch, and this has been a very cruel thing for them to do.
CARLETON: Has Mr Connor lived up to your expectations as Minister
for Minerals and Energy?
PRIME MINISTER: In many respects, more respects, yes. In some
other respects, of course, he's had disappointments because, for
instance, of the delays in the courts, or by the States. Obviously,
when it comes to coal markets or arrangements of iron ore or for
pipelines, he's overcome all the resistance overseas and at home.
On things like offshore matters or uranium, there have been
difficulties. CARLETON: What about relations with the business community?
PRIME-eMINISTER: Well, the coal producers swear by him. They've
never had it so good.
CARLETON: What about Mr Hawke? Do you think he'll succeed you
as Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't know. He has to get into Parliament.
Look, for the last 12 years for the last 12 years I have been urging
Mr Hawke to go into Parliament. I still do, but I think he ought
to get a move on. He has to make the decision.
CARLETON: Sir, on a program like this it's obligatory really to
ask you what's been your greatest success in this 1,000 days,
and what's been your greatest failure?
PRIME MINISTER: I suppose the greatest successes have been in
the fields of education, hospitals, now taxation reform those
would be the big ones.
CARLETON: And on the other side?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh well, we are victims, of course, of this
general economic malaise and we've had to learn the hard way to
cope with it.
CARLETON: Yes, but what have you done that has been an actual
failure that you shouldn't have done?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, I don't want to be specific you can discover
those things. It's too close to me.
CARLETON: Mr Whitlam, we'll leave it there for now if we may,
but point out to the audience that you've agreed to appear on State
of The Nation later tonight where we'll look at some of the more
philosophical aspects of your Government and your own very
particular style of leadership.
PRIME MINISTER: Is this just a commercial?
CARLETON: A commercial for later tonight.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh.
CARLETON: Thank you so much for now.