MIDNIGHT, SUNDAY 1ST DECEMBER 1974
Radio 2SM Interview with Prime Minister,
Mr Gough Whitlam
Interviewer: Stephen Brouwer
This interview may be used with proper accreditation
EMBARGO:
" Mr. Prime Minister now that t wo year's have gone by, the obviuaL,
question is have they been comuipletely satisfying for you.
Not completelyl but 0but hli, ir; iy.
If you had the time over again what things would you do differently.
Oh, I am not sure. I could not identify what I would do
differently. I would have liked many things to have been done
more quickly, or completely.
Would you like to name a few?
What immediately occurs to me, of course, those things where
we have been held up in the Parliament; or those things where we
have been held up by State Governments not co-operating with us.
There were many things, of course, which were held up by the Senate:
some which are still being held up by the Senate. There are also
a great number of things where the State Governments were slow
to co-operate and where time was lost, but in general,
everywhere really, except Queensland that's now been overcome.
If you lose Office, or when you retire from Parliament, what would
you personally like to be remembered for?
There have been two main things at least that ie have been able
to do. One is that we have C ,1. rU Lihmt Fhopl.
have a better opportunity in life righi i , I.. L Atse1.; V, have
done that through the Schools Commission. The other is that we
will have done things to ensure that people have better opportunities
in life wherever they are living, and we are doing that through
our programms for cities, capital cities, provincial cities. I
suppose the principle instrument of this is the Grants Commission.
So the Schools Commission and the Grants Commission are the two
big things which we'll be remembered for, but there is a whole
host cf other matters too, of course, but you asked me, I think,
for te wo big ones.
What about ; ou personally?
T had quite a bit to do with both those, of course, but -r
also the general impression that our country has abroad and kihe; t
we are doing in the World, and there, there has been a
transformation during the two years we have been in Office. You
af1} ed me personally, I have been very much involved in all that.
If you lost Office, what would Gough Whitlam do?
He woule relax and enjoy it.
As. Oh, doing nothing. I worked a long time and very hard.
have been in Parliament 22 ,/ e-irs this month. I have been
Prime Minister twc, years this im and they've been very
active years.
You'd retire to the Back Bench, or leave polidcs.
I am not r-ally making any plans. I am 58, and I * ppose I
have a few years as Prime Minister yet.
Well you have reached the highest position in Australia. Have
Syou got any further personal ambition?
None whatever. Australia has been good to me.. I have worked
hard according to my'lights' for Australia. Nothing else I
should want or expect.
So for you the Prime Ministership is it.
Well, of course.
Well, can I ask you if you felt much personal distress about
the sacking of Mr. Crean.
Well, let me make it plain. I don't accept the word sacking.
Mr. Crean and Doctor Cairns exchanged port folios. There can bc
no shame for Mr. Crean to take a department of which Dr. Cairns
had been the minister for two years, including six months as
Deputy Prime Minister. There is no shame for a minister to take
over a department from the Deputy Prime Minister.
Well can I ask you if you felt much personal distress about the
reshuffle. Mr. Crean liked being Treasurer.
Yes, he did, but as I say there can be ' no skin off his nose'.
if the Deputy Prime Minister is willing to be Treasurer then it is
the Deputy Prime Minister's duty to take the position of Treasurer.
The Deputy Prime Minister for nine years after Menzies was restored
was Sir Arthur Fadden, and he was Treasurer throughout that time.
The. for the following 11 years under Mnzies and the leader of the
Co iiL. Party, the deputy Prime Minister Mr. McEwen didn't want
the joi-So the deputy leader of the Liberal Party had and
that was . ic. Holt. Then when Mr. Holt died the next T
was the New deputy leader of the Liberal Party, Mr. M . ic
I beg your pardon Mr. McMahor, the new deputy leae. E
Liberal Party took over as Treasurer whe-Mr. HIolt Pr
Minister. So for 20 years under a predecessors you had tne
the dputy prime minister or the deputy leaders of the Liberal
' arty holding the position of Treasurer. Dr. CL.-ns was'n.
axious to take the job when he became deputy -) rime ? ini , cr
L. on because of the prominence that ever knei th. 4
he was accepting in economic matters I asked . iim to 7econsi
matt -nd he accepted. Now it is quite wr:. ag, I ' n't
the Lion of sacking of Mr. Crean. The fact wa
a senior ma.. was willing to take that port fo) io, and Mr.
took the port folio previously had been held by his Sc
that is a perfectly p. L, r and normal procedure.
So for you it was a political and there waL.' t cfn' p
distress about the changes.
I didn't like the way all the speculation, and a lot of it
of course was completely false. You know there were thi. nms said
which were quite untrue, which the least checking would have
revealed to be untrue. There was a story in the paper
that Mrs. Crean and I had some disagreement no basis for
it whatsoever. There was also a flash on one television
chain that Mr. Crean's son had said something. Mr. Crean's
son had never been contacted by any television station. Now
these were very reckless, and cruel, and I said obscene
things to go on. They were fabrications no attempt whatever
was made to check them, and of course some people in the Media,
and I hope you don't mind me saying, make these stories up with
confidence, knowing that the people concerned are not going
to refute them. I am going to dignify this sought of
speculation.
And this was the aspect that did distress you throughout the
whole issue.
P. M: -, Ies I was of course not at all pleased that a leak came out4
what was likely to happen, and it occurred when Dr. Cairns
was overseas from the First to the Fifteenth of November, and
in those circumstances nothing could be done about it. When
Dr. Cairns returned the propriety was to inform the Governor
General of what I had in mind, and he was not in Canberra
he was interstate for two or three days.-When l-returned I
saw him that afternoon, and I made the announcement with
his approval.
Was making the change a hard decision to make?
P. M: Yes, but I think it was a necessary decision.
re there any other changes you would like to see in your
stry?
Well -Lnere again I am bound to adhere to the polic A
have always followed. If there are any changes a L
over a year since tha~ ewere the men c iccrned are IL
to hear. ', Tow I will not iespond tc qu -stions ,. aeuii, 2r
are any changc
Will you personally be doing more on th.-economic front n,
I will be more regularly and fully 9 --Lnde fmeno: r
I have taken steps to see that Government departn-Lts a
ag " ies collect more relevant statistics,. anci u,-t tI
analyz. them more quickly. The unfortunate thing is t!
many quiL. important statistics which have -ot been
comprehensively cc -cted or promptly analysed.
Prime Minister I have u what you cons~. der -o
greatest achievement what Uo you consider to be the grccte2:
mistake. Well naturally I am not going to readily respond to a qu~ stion
like that. I haven't thought about it. The great difficulty
we have had of course is that we have come to office at a time
of very great economic difficulty unemployment and inflation
in all the countries of our type throughout the World
all the western countries; all the industrialised trading
countries in the world are beset by those two problems, and
we infect each other, we just can't live to ourselves.
Well I interviewed Dr. Cairns the other day and he said because
of the economic conditions in the pipe line Labor
could not have won at a worst time. Do you agree?
Yes I think that's right. Although I also accept the fact
that if you are in the business of politics you must try
to win whenever there is an election. It was certainly an
unfortunate time to come to Office. It would have been very
much better if we had won three years before in 1969. The
Liberals at that time still had a new lease of lif-e because
Mr. Gorton had only had about less than two years in Office,
and there was still the feeling that he was entitled to have
a fair go.
Well, probably appropriate on the second anniversary anO your
second anniversary as Prime Minister of asking you what do
you consider to be your greatest asset.
In what Way?
Your greatest personal asset.
I suppose I have had an exceptionally long opportunity to study
issues affecting the federal government in Australia, or
affecting Australia in the World; and I was very diligent
throughout those 20 years I was in opposition to equip
myself to understand those domestic and international issues.
Prcf-bly you could say that I have been better prepared
fc: L. job than any Prime Minister has been.
It wouldn't be fair if I didn't ask you what do you c
to be your greatest fault.
M: There again you ion't expect me reaadily to answer questn., s
like that. My ' j. eatest disadvantage I suppose is that
I -caiae. to this post rather older than would be ideal
but that is unfortunately something which be.: ts
11 heads of Government in the Western World We bcc., me
Pri: ne Minister or President and I am not saying I want
to be President. I will have to make that qualific ion
at th--tage, but there are systems where the head -f go
is called ? resident. People in general become prime mii
or president at the qreater age than they wou. d for instanc_
be appointed as head a government department or as head
a business enterprise.
At what stage in your life do you think would have been an
appropriate time for you to come to the prime minis,-, rship.
10 years I suppose.
Can I ask you, who would you prefer as Leader of the
Opposition? I :-em very happy with the present leader of the Opposition.
Prime Minister I am not asking you to justify your overseas
trip, but with the criticism did you ever consider cancelling io?
No I never considered cancelling it. It is always easy
to criticise or even ridicule overseas trips. The fact is
every overseas trip I have made has been necessary and has
been successful, and there is no trip that I have made
that people have criticised as having been unnecessary once
it took place they have, in fact, been beneficial, but there
has been no visit by a senior minister to Europe since the change
of government two years ago. I visited Westminister,
Windsor, and the Vatican, but that was a very brief visit for
various constitutional reasons concerning the British government
and the monarchy. There has been no visit to the Common
Market; there has been no visit to the Soviet Union;
there has been no visit to any of the migrant countries;
and this has been a very great omission up until now I was
to go in. the middle of the year, but of course the double
dissolution occurred at that time and delayed it all. There
are pressing issues to be discussed. After ail people
shouldn't in Europe or in Australia get any impression that
Astralias cultural links, historical links, econoic links,
Europe are less important than they were or/ ling
Do.: , ec1, and if a Head of government visits a country re
is no ., bt the way the wholeldministration of that r
is galvanized into action the way attention is g
to the country from which the visitor comes. We -LIly
have done that on the occasion of the isits by heads c
government or -ads of state to this country. You only
have to look an-everybody can see how much the government
directed attention to relevant issues when ihe p.' ime minis'
of Japan or the Shah of Iran vi:'. ted h * 1i, there have
c" er countries. There have never been sc -p visit,
t_ Australia. There have been as many Ln Lhe iaTh
as -here have been in the previous twenty. We now
impo.. '-in the World, but there has not been an o fici;
visit by prime minister to Europe since 1. -9.
three immec. ate pr, -1-cessors never visited t. iere, and thet:
have been some coun. s which have never had a prime mini.
visit them, for instan. It-r1v. They h,-v nev -r h;
an official visit by an Aus, an prime minis,-r, d. es-.
fact that the presidrnt of Italy was prepared to \' isit here.
Many people ridicule these things, but the fact is that the.. u
are many things which can only be determined on the top
and I have some experience in this; more in fact that ran. y
head of government that this country has had. My duty takes
me there. Of course I'll enjoy it, but there are very many
things which can only be determined at my level or instituted
at my level, particularly in the Common Market.
6
S. B. The ridicule and the criticism must annoy you.
P. M: No I expect it. After all I have been politics for
22 years. 12 years ago it would have annoyed me. It would
have driven'me aound the bend. Now I know it goes with the job.
In this job you take the good with the bad. Now this is the
criticism, I accept it, but I am not going to be deterred from
doing what I think has to be done and what only can be done
by the head of the Australian government because there can
be some criticism. These are very strenuous visits which I
make. Prime Minister, thank you very much.
S. B What do you t.: 01kcJof your internati. iaj iih, ige in relation
to the aboriginal situation?
I think everywhere around the Wor-ld now L LX'r. Lt 1.1' 1a/ i1
that Australia has a government which is determined
to give better opportunities for aborigines in their own
country. Almost you can say a Government which is prepared
to emancipate the aborigine;.
Well I think it was yesterday a book was launched by a
black British sociologist, Chris Mullard, who described
Australia as the second most racist country in the World.
P. M: I cannot condone Australias record in this matter, but
at least the present Australian Government, my Government,
is trying to do something about it. The opening was made
when theReferendum was carried in 1967 which removed the
barriers in the Australian constitution to action by the
Australian government on be'lalf of the Australian aborigines,
but unfortunately until we came in there had been no
administrative or legislative action taken by the Holt, or
Gorton, or McMahon Govern. c-ens which couldn't have been taken
before that Referendum was carried. Now we are taking
that administrative action and since, particularly in
Queensland, the administrative action has been frustrated
by the State government we will be taking the legislative
action. See every other state has made arrangements with
my government concerning aboriginal affairs. Every other
state Labor, Liberal, but in Queensland that's not proved
possible; so now there will be legislative action and the
result in the 1967 Referendum entitles us to take that action.
In fact, we would say obliges us to take that action.