17 September 1999
Subject: Deployment of troops to East Timor
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………
MITCHELL:
The newspapers carry front-page photographs today of an Indonesian man outside the UN offices in Jakarta. He’s holding up a sign which says, quote: "Australian soldiers, welcome to East Timor. Graves have been prepared for you. Rest in Hell", Unquote. In our Canberra studio is the Prime Minister, Mr John Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Neil.
MITCHELL:
What goes through your mind when you see a sign like that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Apprehension, but also a recognition that we are doing the right thing, and a resolute belief that this country must in situations like this do the right thing. There has to be a point in which you say the right course of action, although it may involve danger, although it may involve risks, is the only course of action that you can take. We have never sought hostility with Indonesia. I’ve tried as Prime Minister, and my Government has tried, to build a relationship with the people of Indonesia and I still think that exists, and I still think in time it can be reconsolidated. But it was always going to be the case that sooner or later the people of East Timor would assert their independence like any other group of people around the world. There was overwhelming support in the ballot and what followed was totally unacceptable. Fortunately we prepared ourselves. We thought there was a possibility of violence and that is why we had a peacekeeping force ready, and that is why it has been so easy, if I can use that word, for us to deploy forces compared with other countries.
MITCHELL:
What, there is no option? You’re convinced there is no option?
PRIME MINISTER:
There was no option, and that’s the reason why I have, you know, no doubt in my mind that it’s the right thing. I’m very conscious of the burden that these young men will be carrying, and I’m deeply grateful that they’ll carry it on behalf of us. And I’ll tell them that and I’ll wish them Godspeed and a safe return home, as any Prime Minister, any human being, and parent, any friend, any husband would do in those circumstances.
MITCHELL:
The families of a number of those young men have already called through and want to speak to you, and we will do that in a moment.
PRIME MINISTER:
I’ll be very happy to do that.
MITCHELL:
A number of companies are pulling their Australian staff out of Indonesia because of strong anti-Australian feeling. Do you believe Australians should leave Indonesia?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don’t believe the situation has reached that stage. I don’t. And I’m optimistic that it won’t. There are mixed signs coming out of Indonesia. Some are engaging in fairly superficial anti-Australian rhetoric. Others are taking a more measured approach. And there are signs of orchestration in a number of the riots, and there are signs of manipulation as far as many of those signs that you’ve talked about.
MITCHELL:
Well that’s a concern in itself isn’t it? Being orchestrated by the military presumably.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well by different sections within the society. Neil, it is a difficult situation but we have no alternative, unless of course we were to simply turn a blind eye and to say – well no matter what happens in East Timor we’re not going to let it get in the way of our relationship with Indonesia. Now that is the view that some people have taken in the past. It’s the view that some people take now. There was also a view, an extreme view on the other side that said we should have invaded unilaterally. People were saying that last week, or that was the effect of what they were saying. Now I resisted that because that would have been against the national interest. I wanted a United Sanction, I wanted the acquiescence of the Indonesian Government. Now we’ve obtained that and we have marshaled a very impressive international force including a lot of ASEAN countries. Including, I’m also grateful to say, participation from long standing allies. So I think we have got the balance right. It’s difficult, it’s dangerous, and I don’t disguise the possibility that there could be casualties.
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, if the worst happens, and the worst obviously is there were casualties, Australian soldiers are killed, traditionally public opinion changes when the body bags come home. Why, why should…..can we say now….why should Australian lives if necessary be lost for East Timor?
PRIME MINISTER:
Because in the longer run if you don’t take a stand on an issue of principle, and an issue that has morality on its side, you will pay a deeper cost later on. And the whole lesson of history, particularly through this century has been exactly that. I mean it’s always easier in a way to say – well we’ll put it off, we’ll give in, we’ll acquiesce, we’ll accommodate, we’ll appease. It’s always easy to do that but in the long run, if that happens, then later on you can pay a higher cost. Now I hope that it won’t come to that. I mean we have been in peacekeeping operations in the past and they have gone fairly smoothly. This is more dangerous. I don’t disguise that. It’s more difficult. On the other hand we’ve marshaled quite a diverse force. Our own troops are at a high state of readiness because we’ve been preparing for this possibility, although we hoped it wouldn’t come along, now for some time.
MITCHELL:
Is there a possibility, given the Indonesian military has been supporting the militia, is there a possibility that Australians, or the peacekeepers will be in conflict with the Indonesian military?
PRIME MINISTER:
We think that is unlikely. The signs are more that the Indonesian military as such is winding down its involvement. There has already been some contact between the two militaries. So, we think that is unlikely. And I say we think it is unlikely because it is a volatile situation. But bear in mind that the Indonesian Government has acquiesced, bear in mind that some of the statements that have been made by its Foreign Minister in New York about the role of the Indonesian forces. Now, people will say, well they made statements in the past that things happened in the opposite direction. I understand that but you can only proceed on the basis of the information that is available and the statements that are made. You can’t assume that people are going to behave complete opposite to everything they say. And I am on the more optimistic side in relation to the role of the Indonesian Army itself.
MITCHELL:
What are the implications if we do find ourselves in conflict with the Indonesian military?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, self-evidently that will make the situation a lot more difficult but we don’t believe that is going to arise. And they must, of course, contemplate that if that were to occur then that in turn would provoke a much stronger level of intervention and retaliation including, I believe, a much stronger involvement by countries that are now giving important support but not massive support.
MITCHELL:
Such as the United States.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I mean, you can’t just say, oh well, look, the Indonesian Army could get involved in hostilities with the peacekeeping force and it wouldn’t make any difference at all to the reaction of the rest of the world.
I don’t think the Indonesian Army and Indonesian Government is likely going to embark upon that course. They would know that that would provoke a massive reaction from other parts of the world.
MITCHELL:
Has not the Indonesian, some Indonesian officials effectively made Australian soldiers targets by objecting to their presence in the peacekeeping force – we want Asian faces, not white faces.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there’s been a lot of very loose rhetoric engaged and I have to be careful in my position how I respond to those sorts of questions because I’m conscious of the impact that my own words can have on the situation. We understand that relationships are strained at the moment and we hope over time a relationship on a proper basis can be rebuilt. But we had to make a choice, take a stand. We could either say, well, we’ll turn a blind eye and won’t stick up for the East Timorese despite the fact that almost 80 percent of them voted for independence or we can do what we’re doing. And that was really the choice we faced. And I don’t think the Australian community wanted its government, its army, its leaders to behave in that fashion.
MITCHELL:
Do we yet know or are you able to say when the peacekeeping troops will go in?
PRIME MINISTER:
It will be soon but I’m not able to say precisely when.
MITCHELL:
Will it be, I heard some discussion from military experts last night, will it be in an aggressive sense [inaudible]?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the one thing I want to avoid doing throughout all of this is trying to talk like a soldier. I’m not a soldier. I’m the Prime Minister. I lead the decision making process of the nation. It is up to General Cosgrove, it’s up to the defence forces to plan all of that, to advise us on it and for them to go into the detail of it. It’s not really…
MITCHELL:
Fair enough. There are now reports of atrocities and massacres in West Timor, how far can the peacekeeping force extend?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, they don’t have a mandate to go into West Timor as such, no they don’t. They really don’t because that’s not part of East Timor, it’s not part of the remit. I just hope that once we get established there, or they get established there, that the situation in East Timor will improve, the people will want to come back there. They’ll be allowed to come back. I don’t have an immediate answer to that. And to those who say, well do something about it I mean, can I say to them again, we’re back to where we were last week, that we can’t do that without coming into direct confrontation with the Indonesian Army and they would be entitled then to say, well this is Indonesian territory and you can’t invade. And we certainly can’t.
MITCHELL:
There is now, I would suggest, significant anti-Australia feeling in Asia. Malaysia and Japan have both expressed concerns about our involvement -–well, Malaysia I see is back into the force – what impact has that got for us in the future? As you say, it will take a long time to rebuild our relations with Indonesia if ever, how important is this anti-Australian feeling in Asia, well firstly economically and secondly in a military sense?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Neil, I don’t agree that you can generalise about Asia. I mean…
MITCHELL:
Well, we’ve got Malaysia [inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, hang on. I’ve just been to Japan and I saw the Japanese Prime Minister in New Zealand three or four days ago. There’s no anti-Australian feeling from him, none whatsoever. Japan is going to contribute to the trust fund to help pay for the cost of some of the less affluent nations participating. I spoke yesterday on the phone to the Thai Prime Minister. Thailand is now going to provide, partly as a result of that telephone call, the deputy leadership of the mission. We must avoid, I think, a mistake probably of a generation and that is generalising about Asia. There’s no such thing as Asia as such. There are a whole lot of different countries, different societies, different religions, different cultures, different attitudes.
MITCHELL:
But wouldn’t it be fair to say that there’s a number of those countries are now viewing Australia differently because of what’s happening?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but some of them may view us differently in a positive way. Some of them may take the view of, here is Australia playing a confident role in the region, here is Australia playing a lead in assembling a multinational force that includes Australian soldiers, British ghurkas, New Zealanders, Thais, Filipinos, Malaysians. I mean, this is an Australia playing an intelligent, appropriate, firm but fully participatory role in the affairs of the region. I’m not sure that we should see it in those old, defensive terms of, sort of, them, there, permanently, monolithically different from us. I think that’s a mistake.
MITCHELL:
Some might now see us as more of a policeman of Asia…
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don’t see – I think that is going way too far. We’re not big enough to be a policeman anywhere but we are big enough and economically strong enough to play a constructive, positive leadership role in an area like this and on an issue such as this. And I see this as very much the appropriate role for a nation like Australia to play. And I believe in the long run, so far from it being seen as a minus in our aggregate relations with the region, I see it as a plus. I see it as, in a sense, us playing the type of role that uniquely we are able to play. We’re the only nation that really brings to Asia that combination of European history, heritage, American association and Asian geography.
MITCHELL:
But does all this mean we will have to spend more money on defence, that we have to take a different long-term view on defence now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. In a sense I’ve been foreshadowing that now for some time. But it’s certainly necessary. We’re not going to go overboard and sign any cheque that’s put in front of us. We’ve obviously looked at this very carefully and assessed those areas where more expenditure might be needed. But we have responsibilities and it’s in our national interest.
MITCHELL:
Other security concerns within Australia – I know obviously you won’t talk about the spying allegation and things like that…
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don’t talk about those things, no.
MITCHELL:
But I mean in another sense, in terms of the dangers of retribution within this country.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, once again I can’t get into much detail. I can say, though, that I don’t have any information suggesting that there is an unduly alarming possibility of that.
MITCHELL:
Do we still provide any aid to Indonesia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes we still do provide aid.
MITCHELL:
How much?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, quite a lot I think, and most of it’s of a humanitarian kind and I don’t want to stop that and certainly not in the short-term. I think it’s sensible that we continue to keep open the channels of communication but we’ll have to see as things unfold. I mean, if you take away humanitarian aid you’re hurting people that are very vulnerable. And we’ve given aid to – this is not going to Indonesia, it’s going to the humanitarian agencies - we’ve just announced $3 million of aid to the refugees in West Timor. So, I think it’s a mistake just to in a knee-jerk way cancel everything. And one of the strange things about this debate is that there are some participants, not you I hasten to say, but some commentators and others who are sort of saying, well you should do more and then when you do more, and that provokes a reaction from the Indonesians, they then turn around and say, well that was a silly thing to do, look at the problem you’ve created with Indonesia.
MITCHELL:
Have you managed yet to speak to President Habibie?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I haven’t tried to speak to him in the last few days. There’s been no need to.
MITCHELL:
Will you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I’m quite certain that some time in the future I will, yes.
MITCHELL:
But there was a report [inaudible] and he was just refusing to take your call.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I tried to reach him at the weekend. I’ve not tried since then. Events have moved on. The important conversations that I had to have with President Habibie I did have and they were the ones I had with him last week when I explained very carefully but very clearly what our position was. And I should say in his defence that he told me in the middle of last week that if the declaration of martial law in East Timor did not work out within a relatively short period of time Indonesia would agree to the intervention of a peacekeeping force that would include elements of the Australian defence forces and other neighbouring countries. Now, that is exactly what has happened.
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, are we still training Indonesian military personnel or have they left?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we still have some people in staff colleges. I frankly haven’t inquired over – I think there about 10 or 20 of them and I haven’t inquired over the past couple of days as to their status.
MITCHELL:
If you don’t mind, we’ll take a call. John has called in, his son is one of the forces. John, go ahead.
CALLER:
Yeah, thanks Neil. Mr Prime Minister, I wonder if you could explain to me why the peacekeeping force in New Guinea will be treated…ah, sorry in East Timor, will be treated differently to previous peacekeeping forces in that they will be paying tax on their income whilst they are up there?
PRIME MINISTER:
That’s not right. The information I had directly from the Defence Department, and I inquired about this yesterday when I was making arrangements for an increase in their Timor allowance, the advice I had from the Defence Department yesterday, so it’s hot off the press, was that when they are in Timor their salary and allowances are not subject to tax.
MITCHELL:
But did your son tell you that, John, did he?
CALLER:
Yes he did. He told me last night.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, my information is the opposite. If you can give your name and telephone number to Neil’s programme as soon as I get off this microphone I’ll go back to the Defence Department because if what your son is saying is right I have been misinformed. Look, I actually initiated yesterday, I should tell you now you have raised it, I initiated yesterday a review of the allowances to be paid while the men are in East Timor. And as a result of that there’s been an increase of almost 50 per cent in the deployment allowance, that’s the special allowance you get for being in East Timor. And I was told yesterday that that allowance and the salary is tax-free while they are in East Timor. I will check that out and if I am wrong I will get in touch with Neil’s programme. But that’s what I was told. I don’t believe I have been misinformed because they were pretty heavily focussed on it and I’ll be very annoyed if I have been. But on the other hand, if I haven’t been misinformed I would like that news to be relayed back so that you and other mums and dads and husbands and wives and so forth can rest assured that we are going to treat the men going there with every consideration and with appropriate generosity for the commitment they are making and the risks to which they will be exposed.
MITCHELL:
John, just hold on for a moment if you would. Mr Howard, when are you going to Darwin by the way?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, when I know exactly when the men are going and I don’t want to talk about that at the moment.
MITCHELL:
Cheryl, would you go ahead please.
CALLER:
Yes. Hello Mr Prime Minister, it’s a pleasure to speak to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Hello Cheryl.
CALLER:
I am a proud mother of a very proud Australian soldier who will be leaving for East Timor.
PRIME MINISTER:
God bless you.
CALLER:
Yes. My emotions are all mixed up. I know and he knows that it’s a job that has to be done. And I know that he has been well trained and the whole Australian Army is well trained. When you go to see them my son will be just a face in the crowd…
PRIME MINISTER:
What’s his name?
CALLER:
His name is Sean.
PRIME MINISTER:
Sean who?
CALLER:
Sean Walters.
PRIME MINISTER:
Sean Walters.
CALLER:
Yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
And is he in Townsville at the moment?
CALLER:
He is, yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
How long has he been in the army Cheryl?
CALLER:
He has only been in the army for 12 months. He joined as a late soldier, he’s 28 years old and it was a struggle for him but he’s so proud and we are so proud of him. And can I just ask when you see all these young men who are so proud of their army, he’ll only be a face in the crowd but to us he is so special and can I please ask people that when they are away…that when they come home not to forget about them.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, well they shouldn’t and they shouldn’t suffer what some of our Vietnam veterans suffered 30 years ago. And I think all…our hearts go out to you that when they come back they should be loved and received back not only to their families but by a very grateful Australian community.
MITCHELL:
Thank you Cheryl. Good bye. The food drop, Mr Howard, do we know when they’ll go ahead?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, fingers crossed, we hope it might be today. It’s been frustrating, we have got food accumulating but we weren’t satisfied as of yesterday about the adequacy of the arrangements for security on the ground. We don’t want it dropped and we don’t want the refugees coming out and them being an easy target for the militias.
MITCHELL:
There’s a report the United States is furious with us, [inaudible] is that right?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don’t know whether the…I mean, you can’t stop people getting furious. But I can tell you Americans are always made fully aware of the intelligence material we get. Any suggestion that we held that back is wrong and I reject it completely. I had that allegation checked out. And I was also surprised to learn, read in that same article, that somebody had said that there was confusion about what we wanted militarily, on a military level, out of the Americans. I spoke to President Clinton about this several times in New Zealand and he, in fact, expressly said that the American military and our military had had a very satisfactory discussion. And as for the rest of the report, well, I am sorry that some officials resent the fact that I argued strongly for American involvement. I don’t apologise for that.
MITCHELL:
Paul Keating has attacked you strongly for mishandling it. Have you got a reaction to that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Paul Keating basically thought if push came to shove you let East Timor go. And under Paul Keating’s leadership we adopted the most accommodating attitude towards the Indonesian Government. Now, I believe in good relations but I don’t believe you pursue a relationship with a country no matter the cost.
MITCHELL:
This is a long-term obligation isn’t it?
PRIME MINISTER:
This is a…well, it’s a significant obligation and we’ll see it through. Can I just say in relation to the earlier matter I have been handed a letter written to me yesterday by the Minister for Veterans Affairs saying that the…talking about the package of allowances. Personnel deployed to East Timor will receive tax-free salary and allowances during their service as part of INTERFET. Now, I will check that yet again and I am sorry that John’s son, I think it was, who has been informed and we’ll make certain that the tax-free character of the salary and allowances is reinforced.
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, just finally there’s nothing else to talk about today. There is a sense of history about this and it’s quite an awesome sense of history. What is your message not just to the troops but to the Australian people at this time?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, my message is that this is an important moment in our history. We have an important mission. We are taking the only course of action. There is danger to our men. I ask Australians to think about them, I ask them to pray for them and I ask them to remember what a tremendous contribution they are making for the sort of things that we as a country believe in. You do these things because you believe that there are certain values in life worth defending and you don’t necessarily do them because it’s the easiest course of action. It is anything but the easiest course of action. And I am very proud of our men, I am very proud of their readiness and I know that all Australians will share that sense of pride. But we’ll think about them and we’ll have our fingers crossed and we’ll hope and pray they all come home safely.
MITCHELL:
Thank you very much for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
It’s a pleasure.
[ends]